The gay-bashing capital of Europe

[Diederick]

Is the declaration that a poor person is more likely to commit a crime than well off one something of a surprise?

I think the immigrants who do not come to a country because their lives were threatened (a.k.a. come from a ****** country), are not likely to engage in crime.

The immigrants who are refugees of sorts need guidance, personal guidance, not more paperwork. They need to know where to go for help, for a job and what the rules and standards of the country they migrated to are. Of course the latter is true for any migrant.

If people who culturally or religiously believe that homosexuals need to be cured, stoned, or killed (or whatever) come to a country, like the Netherlands, where the popular native population has long ago accepted homosexuality for what it is - they need to be made aware of this cultural difference and have to abide by the cultural rules of the country they moved to.

Dutch culture is basically lost, sadly, so there is little obvious rules immigrants can abide to. People don't speak up any more when people break social rules. Our values are too diverse and inconsistent.

 

[Smoke]

Is the declaration that a poor person is more likely to commit a crime than well off one something of a surprise?

Remember, this thread is about anti-gay hate crimes. Are immigrants -- all immigrants, from all countries -- more likely to commit such crimes?

As for immigrant violent crime in general, studies in California and Illinois have found that Mexican immigrants are less likely to commit violent crimes than white or black people born in the U.S. and have found correlations between increased immigration and a drop in violent crime.

 

[Breathe]

This is saddening, but not surprising. There seems to be a growing case of Islamic extremism and homophobia from the Muslim communities in my country, and across Europe as a whole. To see this happen to Amsterdam (where I have family) is saddening, but I've known about this kind of thing for some time now.

I do know some people, personally, who have been victims of gay bashing by the Muslim community.

There are areas in my city where one cannot enter safely: behind the mosque. I know a girl who lived around there, and got the crap beat out of her for being a non-Muslim, non-veiled woman in 'their area'.

I have heard of many sexual assaults and molestations on non-Muslim women by Muslim men, many of which have not been investigated. I have encountered many women who have been forcibly converted to Islam by their partners; one woman who refused to convert to Islam was hospitalised for a month by her boyfriend.

I live in an area with a large Muslim population. I will not mention it by name because I like my privacy and safety. Attempts at playing the race card are old, pathetic, and are playing into the hands of those who perform them. I'm not saying all Muslims do this, or that even the majority do: there are many Muslims who do not commit crimes and live perfectly good lives.

For people to refuse to acknowledge or deal with these problems is causing major problems in my area: many are becoming more hostile to Muslims in my area because of the bad apples, and how the local police, even shopkeepers, do not seem to be dealing with the troublemakers because of a hesitation of being labelled as racists.

Even my family and I have encountered some good-for-nothing troublemaking Muslims, explaining one makes my blood boil, but a few people here know of it.

I've met the imam at the main mosque, and he is an odious, poisonous little man who promotes troublemaking against the kuffar; he's big on Zakir Naik, too. He even attempted to convert me with Zakir Naik's little claims when I met him. D)

Until such troublemakers can be dealt with, and people can integrate into the host culture, we're in deep doodoo. Police and governments should be working with the religious leaders of the communities to stop such problems. Until then, gay bashing, among other things, will continue to rise across Europe. For everyone's sake, I hope I am wrong.




Just this old fool's two cents.

 

[Bismillah]

Remember, this thread is about anti-gay hate crimes. Are immigrants -- all immigrants, from all countries -- more likely to commit such crimes?

The point I am making Smoke is that the answer to this problem is the same answer that Tucson Police Department needs to resolve the crime rate in my city. Stricter law enforcement in economically depraved neighborhoods and swift punishment for law breakers, as well as classes that aim to teach immigrants English and basic laws and constitution of America. Stronger programs of outreach with positive incentives as well as mandatory requirements such as mastering the host country's language would immensely ease the problems that society finds itself struggling to deal with.

As for crimes committed against gays, that is a hate crime. Wander into the Sureno territory in my home town and there is a much higher probability to be targeted if you are white or black. The cultural context doesn't matter, it's the response to the problem that does.

As for immigrant violent crime in general, studies in California and Illinois have found that Mexican immigrants are less likely to commit violent crimes

I am aware that immigrants aren't likely to commit crimes, normally these are the people who have worked hard to get into the host country and are busy working. The ones at risk are the children of these poor immigrants who are alienated from society and more liable to join gangs living in underdeveloped areas of town. Coincidentally isn't it a gang of Moroccan youths who are in question?

 

[darkendless]

Obviously you lack basic reading comprehension. I don't care if you speak out against unlawful groups of Moroccans. I care when you take a tiny percentage of immigrants from Morocco, superimpose them as to fit your ideology and to justify that all immigrants from Morocco should be denied the right to immigrate to Amsterdam. That is racist

When 2/3 of the crime is being comitted by 5% of the population, thats pretty ****ing sickening. How can 5% make such a difference, something doesn't add up there and thats the problem. Perhaps cultural differences shouldn't be something we should be forced to accept? My comprehension is fine, simple facts here buddy. Its hard to superimpose facts and my idealogy is pretty neutral. To be honest targeting muslims specifically is old. The world has been given enough ammunition but this is something else.

Stop rolling around in the mud, it just makes you look pathetic. If "vigilante justice", which is an ironic oxymoron, is the next step then your government has truly failed you. I'd look internally for solving problems. though it is always easier to blame the brown man for the failures of domestic policy

Evidence: Cronulla riots Sydney Australia. It was blown out of proportion but the original cause of the riots before they got out of hand were getting justice. Our governments fail because they have no way of bridging the gaps in cultures and are afraid of being called racist by controlling immigration from certain groups who are the main cause of violence. If there were no gaps people would understand eachother. It sucks when there are clear examples doesn't it, kind of ruins your silly little game so get off your high horse.

Lets be clear:
1) on one hand you blame the locals for having a problem thrust on them
2) you criticise the law enforcement
3) you call any suggestion to block the problem racist because it targets muslims which commit 66% of these attacks and are just 5% of the population.
4) you criticse the government which has its hands tied. How can the government respond without being racist towards 2/3 of the problem?

Again with the crocodile tears. "I care when you take a tiny percentage of immigrants from Morocco, superimpose them as to fit your ideology and to justify that all immigrants from Morocco should be denied the right to immigrate to Amsterdam. That is racist"

No its not. They cause the problem, it makes sense to stop it so they can control and isolate those that are there and prevent hate crimes. When its under control they can reopen the gates and let things progress as normal. Thats how we deal with illegal immigrants who gets boats over here from Indonesia.

Yet, you would deny the majority of these type of people the chance for a better life. How egotistical and selfish can a person be :clap

Egotistical and selfish? Be nice now its not my fault you're running out of defenses and have to get personal. So far you've provided squat towards an effective solution. Stop them immigrating for long enough to target those that are causing the problems. A better life doesn't even have to be the west. Why not move to Asia or somewhere else? For how much i see muslims (ouch being racist again) criticising how the west goes about on a daily basis and how much our ideals sicken muslim people, i can't believe that we seem to be the only avenue for a better life? Does it not seem strange to you as well, people who are so critical of our ways and yet flood to our countries?

LOL You can take this and apply it to any situation. But, but how can the Fresno police combat gang bangers when all those said gang bangers are *gasp* African American! "How can a city crackdown and ensure safety for its citizens when it has to control minority youths and risk being publicly slaughtered by the racism patrol?"!!!!

Harsh jail time for gang violence is racist isn't it because stereotypically only minorities form gangs? I think i'm right about this one.

Get a grip. It's the fault of the local police not to be able to enforce local law and impose stricter penalties for hate crimes.

Yep here we go again. Blaming the locals for a problem they didn't cause

Like I said every country that has a sizable immigration influx has to deal with this problem. I guess the incompetence of the European authorities to deal with it has caused them avoid their own failures and blame their ineptitude on immigrants. What is this the 1900s?

Its highly amusing to watch you blame governments for immigrant thugs targeting homosexuals. You just admitted that immigrants are a 'problem.' How can temporarily stopping immigration be racist and selfish? If authorities can't target the bulk of the problem they can't fix it. Its just unfortunate that *sigh* muslims are 66% of the problem.

 

[Gentoo]

I'm always mystified when I read about what people are willing to do to themselves and to each other...

Either I have my head in the sand or Maine, with it's high Somali population, is lucky to not have these issues. When I took more college classes, there were a lot of Muslims in my classes. One of my study groups (in a religions class too) consisted of a Christian, a Muslim and a Pagan (me) with no problems...

 

[Bismillah]

When 2/3 of the crime is being comitted by 5% of the population,

I'm going to stop you right there. Trying to generalize specific hate crimes as the majority of crimes in a city, nice way to sneak your condescending and demeaning attitude in. As I showed, Amsterdam has a relatively low crime rate for a city of its size. The majority of violence in Arizona can be targeted to those of a specific background. That is a tiny percentage of the total number of immigrants of that background and restricting all immigration based on this would be idiotic.

How can 5% make such a difference, something doesn't add up there and thats the problem. Perhaps cultural differences shouldn't be something we should be forced to accept?

5% makes a difference when inept Europeans try to blame all Middle Easterners for the lackluster response of the government of a few lawbreakers. It is the government's job to protect its citizens. Obviously it is failing miserably. Like I said Dearborn, MI has 30% Arab population. A huge intake of refugees from Iraq have boasted these numbers even higher. Tell me how many honor killings and hate crimes are reported in the city.

My comprehension is fine, simple facts here buddy. Its hard to superimpose facts and my idealogy is pretty neutral. To be honest targeting muslims specifically is old. The world has been given enough ammunition but this is something else.

Obviously it's not, when you think I condone the unlawful actions committed by these individuals. You also can't seem to grasp the fact that collective guilt and punishment are racist ideas. Just because you happen to be less racist than other Europenas doesn't leave you in the right.

Evidence: Cronulla riots Sydney Australia.

Why are you providing evidence for my argument?

The incidents badly damaged Australia’s international image, with several countries issuing travel warnings, and a lack of confidence about the capability of police to handle incidents of this magnitude.

2005 Cronulla riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It is always easier to blame the brown man for the failures of domestic policy "

1) on one hand you blame the locals for having a problem thrust on them

No I don't. Show me where I said that.

2) you criticise the law enforcement

Yup

3) you call any suggestion to block the problem racist because it targets muslims which commit 66% of these attacks and are just 5% of the population.

You need to stop trying to put words in my mouth. I said its racist to pass legislation that harms all immigrants when only a small percentage actually break the law. "You also can't seem to grasp the fact that collective guilt and punishment are racist ideas."

4) you criticse the government which has its hands tied. How can the government respond without being racist towards 2/3 of the problem?

When does a government not have its hands tied There are always proponents and opponents, a competent government can forgo these obstacles. Like I said, American authorities handle it fine. We have a large population of Bosnian and Somali refugees in Arizona and we make do without passing draconian legislation

Egotistical and selfish? Be nice now its not my fault you're running out of defenses and have to get personal.

It is egotistical and selfish to advocate an idea that would deprive others from the same opportunities you hold

So far you've provided squat towards an effective solution. Stop them immigrating for long enough to target those that are causing the problems.

That is a quite ignorant way to solve the problem. You would perpetuate a cycle of closed and open borders since new immigrants would bring with them the same problems as the old. Your solution doesn't solve anything at all. I have stated multiple times what I think a solution to this problem would be, I'm sick of repeating myself.

A better life doesn't even have to be the west. Why not move to Asia or somewhere else?

Because a Muslim has the same damn right to move to any country that a Christian, Jew, or Buddhist does

[qoute]Does it not seem strange to you as well, people who are so critical of our ways and yet flood to our countries?

Yes it seems strange people would move to a country and not be willing to coexist with their neighbors. Then again, this is only a small minority of immigrants who actually do move to the West. You really have no idea of how the process to immigrate to these countries works do you? It is extremely difficult and consuming and, for the majority, only those that actually want to live in the West move there.

Harsh jail time for gang violence is racist isn't it because stereotypically only minorities form gangs? I think i'm right about this one.

What are you talking about? Your statement that cracking down on these law breakers would be racist is completely incorrect. Like I said, this can be taken to apply to any situation, in this case Fresno, and is not a valid concern or reason to explain the incompetence of local authorities.

Its highly amusing to watch you blame governments for immigrant thugs targeting homosexuals. You just admitted that immigrants are a 'problem.' How can temporarily stopping immigration be racist and selfish?

It's also highly amusing to watch you advocate legislation like that of the Chinese exclusion act of the 1900s that are just about universe condemned. Like I said when you state your intentions you are rolling in the proverbial mud. I'm not blaming the government for the problem I'm blaming them for their failure to address it.

muslims are 66% of the problem.

Oh look taking hate crimes reported in Amsterdam to represent 66% of crime in society as an attribute of Muslims. How pathetic.

 

[darkendless]

I'm going to stop you right there. Trying to generalize specific hate crimes as the majority of crimes in a city, nice way to sneak your condescending and demeaning attitude in. As I showed, Amsterdam has a relatively low crime rate for a city of its size. The majority of violence in Arizona can be targeted to those of a specific background. That is a tiny percentage of the total number of immigrants of that background and restricting all immigration based on this would be idiotic.

You're wrong, i'm talking specifically about this problem. Don't put words in my mouth it does nothing for you.

5% makes a difference when inept Europeans try to blame all Middle Easterners for the lackluster response of the government of a few lawbreakers. It is the government's job to protect its citizens. Obviously it is failing miserably. Like I said Dearborn, MI has 30% Arab population. A huge intake of refugees from Iraq have boasted these numbers even higher. Tell me how many honor killings and hate crimes are reported in the city.

Here we go again blaming the government and the local population again, Give it a rest. The problem is the change in the nature of such crimes directly corresponds to an influx of a particular ethnic group. Wouldn't it make sense to target the ethnic group?

Obviously it's not, when you think I condone the unlawful actions committed by these individuals. You also can't seem to grasp the fact that collective guilt and punishment are racist ideas. Just because you happen to be less racist than other Europenas doesn't leave you in the right.

Why are you providing evidence for my argument? 2005 Cronulla riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It is always easier to blame the brown man for the failures of domestic policy "

I'm no less racist and i'm not specifically European so stop making generalizations based on assumed knowledge. The point of brining up the riots is an example of what can happen when the law refuses to touch cultural issues. What wikipedia doesn't tell you is the huge problem Sydney has with young muslims going round in groups, bashing the crap out of people, similar to Amsterdam, just less specific. Same as in every city, and yet its somehow racist to target them and alter laws to prevent gang violence. If the riots did not happen, no one would have even bothered to make a wikipedia page about the events leading up to the riots. But since the big bad white man responded, we're all racist and oh the poor minorities. Its so pathetic that we have to watch out for specific groups of people within this country who constantly justify generalizations and ruin it for the rest.

No I don't. Show me where I said that.

5% makes a difference when inept Europeans try to blame all Middle Easterners for the lackluster response of the government of a few lawbreakers. There you go, blaming Europeans and their law makers.

You need to stop trying to put words in my mouth. I said its racist to pass legislation that harms all immigrants when only a small percentage actually break the law. "You also can't seem to grasp the fact that collective guilt and punishment are racist ideas."

Don't be hypocritical its sad. Not all immigrants are bad, but certain group are notoriously bad.
I'm racist because i have the best interests of the local population in mind. It's ****ing sad that "caring for the locals ahead of those who seek a better life" is such a terrible thing to uphold. Why take care of the others ahead of your own? . If Morroccans are a problem what kind of sense does it make to allow more to come in which increases the problem and makes it harder to target those committing hate crimes? Use your common sense if you have any.

When does a government not have its hands tied There are always proponents and opponents, a competent government can forgo these obstacles. Like I said, American authorities handle it fine. We have a large population of Bosnian and Somali refugees in Arizona and we make do without passing draconian legislation

All the time. In Australia we have water issues and it has been determined independently that immigration would need to be abolished and brith rates to 1 child to secure our future and yet it was squashed by the big political parties who are too afraid of saying the wrong thing. Look at the mess France and ENgland caused domestically by looking to control immigration.

"Making do" isn't good enough. Its pathetic that we have to "make do" to account for others. Simple common sense, if you immigrate accept everything the way it is or go home. There is nothing more simple. I did it almost 15 years ago, its not that hard.

It is egotistical and selfish to advocate an idea that would deprive others from the same opportunities you hold

I didn't have a choice as i was a child but i did have to integrate into school and lifestyle changes. Then again, i'm not part of a group that notoriously commits hate crimes, huge difference there champ.

That is a quite ignorant way to solve the problem. You would perpetuate a cycle of closed and open borders since new immigrants would bring with them the same problems as the old. Your solution doesn't solve anything at all. I have stated multiple times what I think a solution to this problem would be, I'm sick of repeating myself.

Maybe not, but it would give time to control and educate those that are stuck in the country during a closure. Since backward dark age teaching are ingrained, education and harsh jail penalties all round might do something? Its better than letting these delinquints terrorise everyone.

Yes it seems strange people would move to a country and not be willing to coexist with their neighbors. Then again, this is only a small minority of immigrants who actually do move to the West. You really have no idea of how the process to immigrate to these countries works do you? It is extremely difficult and consuming and, for the majority, only those that actually want to live in the West move there.

Multiculturalism hardly works. Look at the problems we have with people of diverse backgrounds. We have to "make do" which is hardly beneficial to anyone but the immigrants who get it pretty easy over here and in Europe.

Co-existance is complex. 9 times out of 10 its always the locals fault that co-existance is difficult

What are you talking about? Your statement that cracking down on these law breakers would be racist is completely incorrect. Like I said, this can be taken to apply to any situation, in this case Fresno, and is not a valid concern or reason to explain the incompetence of local authorities.

Incorrect, hardly. We've seen it all before and it fails every time because a leader of the minority will go on national tv and blackmail law enforcement. Deny it if you want but i'm the realist not the one with my head in the sand.

It's also highly amusing to watch you advocate legislation like that of the Chinese exclusion act of the 1900s that are just about universe condemned. Like I said when you state your intentions you are rolling in the proverbial mud. I'm not blaming the government for the problem I'm blaming them for their failure to address it.

Exactly. Blame everyone else. You havn't got a clue mate. Perhaps its convenient for you to ignore the fact that these issues happen everywhere and are unwilling to accept that in places with high muslim and arab populations in Europe/Australia have culturally fueled problems.

Oh look taking hate crimes reported in Amsterdam to represent 66% of crime in society as an attribute of Muslims. How pathetic.

You're the one blaming everyone but the offenders. Now that is pathetic, get over yourself.

We're not getting anywhere. I'll leave you to your self imposed denial of the issues. I have better things to do than explain the reality of the world to you.

 

[Bismillah]

I'm done with this. It's obvious you are blinded with self-righteousness and a disposition to blame all problems on immigrants. It is a fact that all developed countries have to deal with a large intake of immigrants. It is also a fact that this tends to increase the crime rate within society. American society can handle this just fine. Like I have stated for the upteenth time Dearborn, MI has a 30% Arab population and it is no different than any other Michigan city. This is a specific refutation to the racist idea that Middle Easterners cannot live peacefully within a Western society. There are huge amounts of refugees in Arizona and we don't have any problems at all. It's only when inept politicians can't deal with problems that all countries have to deal with, when we get into these arguments. These incidences reflect the failure of government plain and simple. When people push for immigration quotas and bans that are widely discredited and have been abandoned for decades it is just too much.

It's always easier to blame the immigrant than the failure of domestic policies. It happened in America with every group and religion imaginable and it is no surprise that it's happening in Europe too. I just hoped people had outgrown these childish interpretations.

I have better things to do than explain the reality of the world to you.

:biglaugh:Honestly I'm curious as to why you think you have to explain anything to me. I lived in a poor Muslim country. Immigrated to America. Have worked with refugee families for the past couple of years. My grasp of the situation is much more solid than many who come here spouting their racist "solutions".