The God Story's Logic

[sojourner]

The ignoramus story:

Everyone who believes in any conception of God automatically believes in the Abrahamic God.
Anyone who follows any of the Abrahamic religions (all theists in other words) reads the Bible literally.
Any theist who claims to read the Bible allegorically is lying or cheating.
If I slap the words "Reason" or "Logic" on my argument somewhere, this excuses me from having to be reasonable or logical.

Is that filed under "Fiction" or "Educational?"

 

[Quagmire]

Is that filed under "Fiction" or "Educational?"

As with most things, it depends on who's reading it.

 

[connermt]

Says who?? I don't think I've ever heard that "God expects us to make sense out of all of it" or "take it at face value." That's just absurd.

Some would say it's absurd not to god doesn't expect us to make sense of it

 

[connermt]

1) Because religion is a cultural expression. That's reality. As the culture changes, the religion changes with it. It's the way of things. God doesn't have any more desire to "retain the 'original culture'" than God has the desire to "keep maple leaves green in the fall."
With regard to Xy (because that's what I know and can speak authoritatively about), we each have to come up with what has meaning for us, wherever we find ourselves. Xy was not meant to be limited to one culture, because Xy was never meant to be a religion.

2) You're right. We can't. And we don't have any business pretending that we can.

1) But should it be? It shouldn't be the same from time to time, culture to culture, if it's about the same deity?
2) If we can't, then aren't we all doomed? Why woudl a deity not expect finite being to make sense of the things an infinite being wants/commands us to do?

 

[connermt]

Partly. Anytime we talk about God, we talk in metaphor.

Doesn't that depend on who is talking about it?
Not everyone believes god is a metaphor. Rather or not that's right is a different story.

But why the metaphor? And why the expectation from such a metaphor?
If god's a metaphor, why worship it? Why try to communicate with it? Why does it want anything to do with physical beings? Or does it?

 

[9Westy9]

This.... enough said

[youtube]DvRPbsXBVBo[/youtube]
God's Checklist 2.0 - YouTube

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

This.... enough said

[youtube]DvRPbsXBVBo[/youtube]
God's Checklist 2.0 - YouTube

I seen that video a couple of weeks ago. I really liked it.

 

[9Westy9]

I seen that video a couple of weeks ago. I really liked it.

I like his videos. Shame he doesn't make many anymore

 

[Quagmire]

This.... enough said

Comes across as a typical televangelist to me: ie, he's giving a smug, sanctimonious sermon based on a shallow, self-serving interpretation of something that he doesn't understand or seem to have any real interest in understanding.

I find it amusing that people from completely different sides of the fence can justify their personal self-righteousness based on the same source approached in exactly the same way.

 

[9Westy9]

Comes across as a typical televangelist to me: ie, he's giving a smug, sanctimonious sermon based on a shallow, self-serving interpretation of something that he doesn't understand or seem to have any real interest in understanding.

I find it amusing that people from completely different sides of the fence can justify their personal self-righteousness based on the same source approached in exactly the same way.

It's quite a good critique of a type of Christianity at the least.

 

[Quagmire]

It's quite a good critique of a type of Christianity at the least.

I disagree. I think it's what I said it was.

 

[Thief]

Here's the logic as I understand it:
God created everything
He created humans
He placed them in a garden
He placed a tree of knowledge there
He told the humans not to eat of the tree
He allowed the devil/satan to enter the garden
He allowed the humans to be tempted, knowing they would eat of the tree
He (seemingly) acts surprised that they ate of it (didn't see them I guess, but why?) then kicks them out, making their lives difficult and ending in death/hell
Years go by, god asks for sacrifices from people during those years
Eventually, a teenager gets pregnant with his son/self/son/self
He/his son/he/his son grows up
Little to no writings of this age of himself/son/self/son is allowed to be put into the story of himself/his son/himself/his son
Then, all of a sudden, people are writing stories about himself/his son/himself/his son starting around the age of 30
Four stories are accepted as legitimate, yet no one story is exactly the same - some have parts others don't, some can't agree on details
This god obviously can't edit the writing of his own story, much less do it himself - why?
Time passes and his son/self/son/self is sacrificed for the sins of the world
He "dies", then assends (though some reports of him appearing in other parts of the world, but those reports aren't allowed to be published in the official bible)
Over the course of time, people come and go in his name

Here we are today.

Where's the logic in this story? On the superfical level, it makes "sense", but when you dig slightly deeper, you have to start making assumptions and, at times, concessions, for it to make sense.
Why?
If a being can create everything that is, why are the concessions necessary?

There seems to be more logic in many Hollywood scripts.

Are there parts missing of the story?
Has the story been changed over time?
Or, in order to beleive, do you have to do away with logic?

Hate to back all the way to post one....but....

A list of events, and then a call to make sense of it?
From the beginning to the present, in one posting.

How about...
You're here to learn all that you can.
Your body is designed for that effect and can't really do anything else.
Then back to God you go.

Now when you get there....
Will you have made sense of anything at all?
Or will you stand there, and profess to be totally confused?

 

[sojourner]

1) But should it be? It shouldn't be the same from time to time, culture to culture, if it's about the same deity?

Nope. We no longer view God as a warrior-God with very anthropomorphic features. Nor should we. And to try to fit that POV into a post-modern mold is where we get into trouble.

2) If we can't, then aren't we all doomed? Why woudl a deity not expect finite being to make sense of the things an infinite being wants/commands us to do?

It's not about knowing the answers. It's about being bold enough to seek the questions that stretch us.

 

[sojourner]

Doesn't that depend on who is talking about it?

Some may think they're talking fact, but they're deluding themselves. We can't talk fact about what we don't understand.

But why the metaphor? And why the expectation from such a metaphor?
If god's a metaphor, why worship it? Why try to communicate with it? Why does it want anything to do with physical beings? Or does it?

I didn't say God is a metaphor. I said that our language about God is metaphoric.
We are created for relationship. Love is our purpose.

 

[Taka]

Myths don't have to be logical.

Here is the Science story:

Science: the belief that there once was absolutely nothing. And nothing happened to nothing until nothing somehow magically exploded for no reason and become everything. Then a bunch of exploded everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits which turned into dinosaurs.

Thats not really what science teaches. Science doesn't know what caused the big bang and most will admit this.

The theist story seems to be more along the lines of:

"The universe must have had a creator"
"Where did the creator come from?"
"The creator always existed"

Either way, you end up with a problem of "where did x come from".

 

[CynthiaCypher]

This.... enough said

[youtube]DvRPbsXBVBo[/youtube]
God's Checklist 2.0 - YouTube

That is one hot atheist. He really rustled my jimmies. I watched it twice.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Thats not really what science teaches. Science doesn't know what caused the big bang and most will admit this.

The theist story seems to be more along the lines of:

"The universe must have had a creator"
"Where did the creator come from?"
"The creator always existed"

Either way, you end up with a problem of "where did x come from".

Ok. Then tell me what science teaches in 30 words or less.

 

[Thief]

Ok. Then tell me what science teaches in 30 words or less.

It doesn't teach.
It discovers.

And the more you learn the questions you get.

 

[sojourner]

It doesn't teach.
It discovers.

And the more you learn the questions you get.

Isn't spirituality the same way?

 

[9Westy9]

That is one hot atheist. He really rustled my jimmies. I watched it twice.

He's also an actor