The Good, the Bad and God

[MJFlores]

Do you think God did the right thing? That morals haven't changed since the Bronze Age? That human sacrifice is still a winner?

Where do you think God made a mistake?

Judges 11:30-31 New International Version (NIV)
And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

Mr. Jephthah made a vow. He was thinking that this whatever / it wouldn't be his daughter. Like what you suggested, it could be their hamster.

Why do you think God made a mistake, when He just listened to Mr. Jephthah and granted his prayer for victory against the Ammonites. If you were God what do you think you should do? Send an angel to Mr. Jephthah to deliver a message like "Hey buddy, the hamster won't come out. It's your virgin daughter [which people will object that she is just a young woman riding a wrecking ball] who will be the sacrifice. You better change your mind, mister!" Well that would be you, that would not be the Lord God.

Did other Israelites offer their daughters or hamsters in exchange for favors? Its only Mr.Jephthah.

Morals have changed over the years

I say virgin, you say young woman.
Because virginity was held up high and is a requirement before marriage whereas today it is no longer precious.

And the Bible says this in the last days where we are living:

2 Timothy 3:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

Human sacrifices and even animal sacrifices is not God's policy.

Psalm 50:7-15 New International Version (NIV)
“Listen, my people, and I will speak;
I will testify against you, Israel:
I am God, your God.
I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices
or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.
I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?

“Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,
and call on me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”

Isaiah 1:11 New International Version (NIV)
“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

Now we go back at Jephthah he made the vow and whatever value it was - it was a sacred vow - and it was reckless also.

Now with regards to Jesus Christ, people still don't know why he sacrificed himself.
Why he died and isn't that a violation of God's law that

Ezekiel 18:20 New International Version (NIV)
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Christ is sinless hence he should not die. Why did he?
I could remain silent on this topic since it is off topic
However the Bible says this:

Nor, if anything was achieved, why God couldn't have achieved it equally as well, or better, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers.

Perhaps you can explain these to me as well.)

And it would be dandy, pretty, perfect and everybody wins.

---------------------------Before ------------------------------------------ After

Jephthah daughter would be alive and live to her 120. She will bury his father before that. Have children before that - some will die by the sword and others will die from diseases since medical technology is non existent then. Maybe she will have a husband for a drunkard, womanizing here and there and probably a heavy gambler. They do not have electricity or running water back then so life is very hard. She will see her children die, her friends die and probably some of her grand children die. This reminds me of:


Ecclesiastes 4:2 New International Version (NIV)
And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.


If solutions to all the world's problem could be solved by God's almighty snap
Then it would be better if God would snap his fingers and everybody
Atheists, Commies, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants and I mean everybody lives in heaven
including the pedophiles, rapist, drug dealers, serial killers and all despicable people in history
We won't need to work for heaven, we don't need to have the true faith for heaven
Just snap those fingers and we are there, right?
However God does not work that way.

 

[blü 2]

Where do you think God made a mistake?

In not improving [his] morals between the Bronze Age and 2020.

Why do you keep ducking the question?

Do YOU think human sacrifice (of the Jephthah's-daughter kind) is a good thing in 2020?

Yes?

Or No?

 

[rational experiences]

Fake? Science made your computer, your phone, your car, your food, your medicine, your clothes, all sorts of things, possible. You sound dogmatic and ungrateful.

But that's sill not the topic of this thread.

The good, was natural.

We lived without science, without computers, phones, cars, FOOD is natural, MEDICINE is natural, clothes NATURAL.....and I always lived gratefully.

My brother the inventor of our destruction has lived as the most ungrateful and arrogant liar for far too long, causing and has caused so much unnatural death that I am amazed that God by conditions hasn't dealt with you yet. Must take a long time for God to catch up with you, for spiritually I always wondered how such evil humans could live and believe in God, yet own the destruction of God in the same intent.

 

[PruePhillip]

These are the words that the author of Mark (and, copying him, the author of Matthew) attributed to their respective crucified Jesuses (while Paul and the authors of Luke and John did not).

But you have to pick and choose your way through Psalm 22 ─ a Jesus who said,
But I am a worm and not a man,
would generate an interesting Christology.

And the reason why Mark's Jesus says it is because the author of Mark designed his crucifixion scene with his Septuagint open, at this point at Psalm 22, so he makes sure Jesus' garments are shared out by drawing lots. As I've remarked to you many times before, just about the whole of Mark can be mapped onto the LXX like this, a fact that increases the doubt about an historical Jesus at all.

I could also repeat that prophecy (supernatural foreknowledge) is a form of magic and there are no authenticated examples of either. Instead I might put the same point this way ─

Which is more likely in the real world?

That the author of Psalm 22 three or four or five hundred years before the event had supernatural foreknowledge of Jesus and was writing about him?

Or that the author of Mark, lacking actual biographical information about an earthly Jesus, selected passages from the LXX which appealed to him as messianic prophecies, and when writing structured his story so that his Jesus ticked all the boxes on his list?

Yes, and not only a supernatural knowledge of the Messiah Redeemer but a supernatural
knowledge of Israel - that it will end with the Messiah. And Daniel tells us the enemy which
would bring about this end will be the one to "cut off" the Messiah as well. As must happen
because the Messiah must die for his people to redeem them.

 

[wellwisher]

Morality is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Moral law teach us how to judge between good and evil. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil or Moral law was occupied by the serpent called Satan. Moral law has a connection to Satan. Moral law is not about life, but has a connection to sin and death. If you eat of that tree you shall surely die. The tree of life is about life. That tree was hidden away.

The bible says that God created the heavens and earth and on the seventh day God rested. God was resting, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Eve then Adam chose moral law, when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was the tree occupied by Satan. Satan was in charge of humans, while God rested.

If you look at Revelations, at the end of the New testament, Satan is not thrown from Heaven until the end of the New Testament. Revelations was written decades after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Satan is part of Heaven through the Old Testament and through the beginning of Revelations. Satan was like the COO of God, through the Old Testament. Satan was condoned in heaven and was in charge of the humans, as God rested. Satan was the Lord of the old Testament as God rested.

Jesus did away with law; nail to the cross through the forgiveness of sins, because law was too easy to twist and manipulate by lawyers. If you look at the collusion delusion in the USA, nobody but the innocent have been punished by the law. The criminals used law to punish the innocent and now they use law to escape justice. This is Satan's design, and this is why law was replaced by faith. The forgiveness of sins did away with law since there was no longer punishment due to forgiveness. Law needs punishment to work. If the punishment is forgiven, law breaks down.

On the eighth day or on Sunday; day of the son or light, God went back to work. He cleans house by giving Satan the boot from heaven and puts his son in charge. The Tree of Life, replaces the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. However, Humans continue to worship Satan, via Law, and continue to attribute law of good and evil to God. They are not aware that the tree of life is now in affect. Satan is no longer in heaven, but he is still a part of the earth. He is engrained in human nature through eons of natural selection; law and war, while the Lord Satan was in charge. One now has to make a choice, since Satan is innate to the earth, even though he is no longer part of Heaven.

 

[rational experiences]

Historically the Messiah was changed from returning by Messenger to Israel, for previously the wandering star asteroid stone mass gets removed by hot mass black radiating in space...due to science trans mutation temple pyramids having removed cold radiation mass owned by the Sun freezing in spatial attack history of Earth.

Hence from the Moses event...written after the fact of it...for you cannot write documents about before it happened...for it had not happened first, natural was first.

Hence mutative human genetics healing and gaining brain chemical changes, began to hear the AI recorded science attack memories..and wrote them down. Understanding that healing was relative to awareness returning by the Messengers...the gases.

Historically those gases in mass were natural and present. Science burnt them out of the spatial atmospheric history. Hence when a human says I regained my spiritual memories and then claim the Messenger was the reason...no brothers, you were spiritual first and in origin. The Messenger just allowed you to remember who you were.

So before the ancient baby firstborn death was caused as Moses, mutation was gained, it was prophesised that the holy return of the human Genesis...newly born babies would be born in the Stable state of December/ICE cooling cycle. What science knew, ICE and its re amassing plus asteroid gases assisted the lost Earth heavenly mass to be replaced/returned.

And it was proven real...for Jesus the returned human DNA/genetics were returned...and a very spiritual humanity of proven Healers lived then. With owned and aware spiritual advice, and spiritual lives returned. To tell the stories of the AGES gone and what occult science/Satanists had caused...and it was real.

Hence when Jesus died in the year 33AD, proven to be the 3 removal x 2 of PHI irradiation DEVIL fall out on the ground......the humanity knew. And knew that all of the prophecies had proven correct. Why Jesus had such a large following.

So they then awaited the second coming/return of the Jesus wandering star gases to return again in the Messenger theme. Instead science had re practiced the Temple converting and Jesus was regained again the sacrifice as Shroud of Turin evidence showed.

For it was real. Therefore the evidence that the atmospheric gases had not been returned to Israel due to Temple sciences was proven actual. First Jesus death/sacrifice then return of cooling, the event....expectation of the returned atmosphere. Then the second attack....the Saviour or Messiah not realised.

What the history had been discussing.

“And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles” (Revelation 14:20, NAS).

Between 1260 and 1390 Shroud.

Humans claim that they were awaiting Jesus second Coming...the documentation of it was because it already occurred.

“For I do not want you brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles as come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ‘The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins” (Romans 11:25-27, NAS).

Levant Year 11 25

• June 11 – Battle of Azaz: The Crusader states led by King Baldwin II of Jerusalem defeat the Seljuk forces at Azaz and raise the siege of the town. Baldwin mobilizes a force of 1,100 armoured knights (from Antioch, Edessa and Tripoli) and 2,000 foot-soldiers.

You cannot give a final answer unless the final had been equated, which it had been.

The bible law said that God warning never name God again in science....which has been ignored.

2012 was stated to be the End of the sacrificed life.

Which means the UFO mass would finally be reheld in out of space by asteroid star gas amassing. Exactly how it was stated.

The incoming UFO burning of the cold radiation mass, restarted in modern day nuclear conversions...….life on Earth began to be horrifically sacrificed again...with a lot of increased natural disasters.

Christ the Carpenter sacrifice Jesus tectonic plates. What happens when half of the Earth atmospheric gas mass is being UFO metallic mass dispersed.

 

[halbhh]

Ahh, so you need an apologist designed time machine. We are discussing the OT, not stuff written hundreds/thousands of years after the abrahamic god condoned rape, slavery, theft and then killed everyone (except his good buddy) who didnt do what he said?

Basically the OP characterizations don't fit the full text of the books referenced.

The characterizations are added ideas contradicted by the actual texts in full.

 

[1213]

If I was the sort of person who carries out massacres of defeated men, women, children and animals, such as God ordered the Israelites to be, and as they indeed were, then why not? I'm not the product of the Bronze Age, so personally I don't ─ but why would you think Moses' soldiery were models of middle-class 21st century manners?

You wouldn’t do so, I wouldn’t do so, I don’t see any reason to believe righteous Jews would have done so. If they would not have been righteous enough, they would have been those who will be destroyed. I believe the Jews were better than “middle-class 21st century” people.
(Modern people read rape where it is not even written, which I think speaks volumes about their state of mind).

Do you own slaves, not suffer witches to live, and put to death the children in your zone who diss their parents? That's all ordained in the bible, as you know and strive to live up to, no?

Bible has many rules. Reason why I don’t judge is, Bible doesn’t give the right to judge for all. I am not judge set by God, therefore I don’t give judgments, even if someone would deserve one. Also, if I would judge, I would read all the rules, not just the ones that atheists cherry pick for their propaganda use. I don’t own slaves, because I love my neighbor and also because of this:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

 

[halbhh]

You wouldn’t do so, I wouldn’t do so, I don’t see any reason to believe righteous Jews would have done so. If they would not have been righteous enough, they would have been those who will be destroyed. I believe the Jews were better than “middle-class 21st century” people.
(Modern people read rape where it is not even written, which I think speaks volumes about their state of mind).



Bible has many rules. Reason why I don’t judge is, Bible doesn’t give the right to judge for all. I am not judge set by God, therefore I don’t give judgments, even if someone would deserve one. Also, if I would judge, I would read all the rules, not just the ones that atheists cherry pick for their propaganda use. I don’t own slaves, because I love my neighbor and also because of this:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

I was reading another instance like that just a few days ago in Isaiah chapter 58.

Looking over the entire Old Testament, I see God progressively restricting and breaking down what we commonly call slavery.

But often people will ask: why not all at once?

End slavery in 1 law, entirely, to arrive at Philemon -- NIV in just 1 step, 1400 years quicker....!

Here's why God used gradual incremental steps, as I read it --

Israel had over and over failed to follow the big step laws, such as the ambitious 10 commandments. They broke these over and over and over. Even David broke 2.

They couldn't keep those big steps.

They needed smaller steps. Small changes. One regulation step at a time. That's why so many small regulations came in the O.T.

Here's an interesting step that stands out to me:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.
Deuteronomy 23 NIV

It reminds of the Underground Railroad of the United States of the 1850s, where slaves were helped by to escape and gain freedom.

But, actually the U.S. Underground Railroad was illegal! --

"It is important to realize that while conductors and fugitive slaves were participating on the Underground Railroad, all of their actions were illegal. The federal government had passed Fugitive Slave Acts as early as 1793 that allowed slave catchers to come north and force runaways back into slavery."
History | National Underground Railroad Freedom Center

But in Israel about 3300 years earlier, it was the Law from God!

Step, by step....

Finally, with Christ, we get the revolutionary --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

"In everything..."

Which led inevitably in time among dedicated believers to slaves being freed or treated as family and employees, and even more -- becoming total equals(!) -- as in Philemon.
Philemon 1 NIV

Not only free, but more. Totally a full equal in all ways.

Notice how this very high ideal of total full equality isn't always the norm in worldly American society -- it's an ideal, and not fully realized, for American society.

Today, so many are not there yet, still, 2000 years later.

But not one racist that fails to repent will be able to enter heaven, we can see in the New Testament.

So, the bar has been raised above the level of Deuteronomy for us now -- up to Matthew 7:12.

To a level of full love and equality.

 

[Oeste]

[

No, I see nothing of the kind. What exactly was the offense of the Ammonites?

Sin of course. The Ammonites were no different from anyone else.

Unrepentant as to what, exactly?

Unrepentant to their sin.

And as for justice and punishment, what warnings, credible in their terms, had God given them?

God gave them a conscience and an ability to tell right from wrong... same as everyone else.

Why was the punishment pre-ordained massacre?

It wasn’t preordained. They would have been spared had they repented. (Jeremiah 18:8-20)

Why wasn't each of them entitled to a distinct divine judgment? If there was blame, it had to be particular.

The judgment was distinctive. The fact that Divine Judgment may have come all at once for a group of people does not negate distinctive judgment. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? "For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it"

What I see instead is straightforward Bronze Age brutality, tribalism accompanied by religious intolerance, and the seizure for personal profit of the lands of others by conquest, massacre and rape.

Then you'll see that Modern Day tribalism, religious intolerance, land seizures, massacres and rapes are no different from their Bronze Age counterparts.

And talk me through the deal God made with Jephthah, the blood sacrifice of his daughter to God in return for the victory.

Ah, but I see you’re already having a walk and talk with @MFlores.

Enjoy!

The alternative is to say, "Yeah, human sacrifice, that's cool. And completely fair to the victim."

Is that what you say?

Not at all. I say self-sacrifice can be the greatest expression of human love (John 15:13)[/QUOTE]

 

[MJFlores]

In not improving [his] morals between the Bronze Age and 2020.

Why do you keep ducking the question?

Do YOU think human sacrifice (of the Jephthah's-daughter kind) is a good thing in 2020?

Yes?

Or No?

Human sacrifice of any kind is not a good thing in the Bronze Age or the present age.

The teachings of God in the Bible is against it - to put this bluntly.

2 Kings 17:30-31 New International Version (NIV)
The people from Babylon made Sukkoth Benoth, those from Kuthah made Nergal, and those from Hamath made Ashima; the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire as sacrifices to Adrammelek and Anammelek, the gods of Sepharvaim.

2 Chronicles 28:3-4 New International Version (NIV)
He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. He offered sacrifices and burned incense at the high places, on the hilltops and under every spreading tree.

2 Chronicles 33:6 New International Version (NIV)
He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.

What is God's view on human sacrifices?

Jeremiah 19:5 New International Version (NIV)
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Ezekiel 20:31 New International Version (NIV)
When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your children in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, you Israelites? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will not let you inquire of me.


What Jephthah did is what Jephthah did.
It was in his own volition and voluntary act.

Let us see the duck again, I love ducks.

 

[blü 2]

Human sacrifice of any kind is not a good thing in the Bronze Age or the present age.

So now we agree that God was complicit in acts which were not a good thing ─ [his] failure to call off the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, [his] refusal to call off the famine until the seven sons of Saul had been killed by impalement "before him", and of course the Jesus matter.

This is progress.

The teachings of God in the Bible is against it - to put this bluntly.

2 Kings 17:30-31 New International Version (NIV)
The people from Babylon made Sukkoth Benoth, those from Kuthah made Nergal, and those from Hamath made Ashima; the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire as sacrifices to Adrammelek and Anammelek, the gods of Sepharvaim.

Nope.

That says they were sacrificed to the wrong god, not that there was anything wrong with the kind of sacrifice.

2 Chronicles 33:6 New International Version (NIV)
He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.

Same again ─ again with the sin of religious intolerance.

What is God's view on human sacrifices?

Jeremiah 19:5 New International Version (NIV)
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

But that's not a condemnation of human sacrifice as such either, instead a complaint about unauthorized behavior and the Wrong God Question again.

Ezekiel 20:31 New International Version (NIV)
When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your children in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, you Israelites? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will not let you inquire of me.

It says "you defile yourself with your idols", NOT "you defile yourself with human sacrifice".

What Jephthah did is what Jephthah did.

It was a deal with God, out loud and proud, made while the spirit of God was upon Jephthah, and when God performed [his] part of it, [he] required the sacrifice Jephthah had promised INSTEAD OF calling it off or subbing it as with Isaac and Jonah.

It was in his own volition and voluntary act.

But it couldn't have happened if God hadn't been complicit.


Anyway, it's good that you and I can stand together and say, God was wrong to demand human sacrifice, and wrong not to intervene to prevent it, and [he] urgently needs counseling for [his] intolerance of other religions.

 

[blü 2]

You wouldn’t do so, I wouldn’t do so, I don’t see any reason to believe righteous Jews would have done so. If they would not have been righteous enough, they would have been those who will be destroyed. I believe the Jews were better than “middle-class 21st century” people.

But as I pointed out in the OP, God specifies that the nations the Israelites drive out when they invade Canaan are to be destroyed utterly.

(Modern people read rape where it is not even written, which I think speaks volumes about their state of mind).

So why, in your view, did Moses, acting under God's orders, have everyone killed except the young females "who had not known a man" and what did Moses mean when he said to keep those specific females "for yourselves"?

Also, if I would judge, I would read all the rules, not just the ones that atheists cherry pick for their propaganda use.

You're not pretending the rules aren't there, you're not pretending they're all admirable, so what exactly is your complaint?

And why is it wrong for unbelievers to object to them? Shouldn't any person of common decency do that? Don't you?

I don’t own slaves, because I love my neighbor and also because of this:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

But that didn't stop the Hebrews from owning non-Hebrew slaves.

 

[Kenny]

You'll notice Judges 11:29 says "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah" and in this condition he made the vow we're speaking of. That is, the deal was made directly under the influence of God, and EITHER God knew what was going to happen, that Jephthah would be faced with sacrificing his daughter, OR God didn't know, but when [he] found out, [he] DID NOT CALL IT OFF and eg say [he]'d take a sheep instead &c.

That is, Jephthah's daughter could not have been sacrificed without the direct complicity of God, who'd already called off the sacrifice of Isaac, and who later spared Jonah.

The question in this thread (in this instance regarding human sacrifice) is whether by our standards in 2020 human sacrifice is an atrocity, or whether it's still cool because God has approved of it on at least five occasions, and followed through with it on at least three (Jephthah's daughter, sons of Saul, Jesus), resulting at least nine deaths.

Which?

The problem you present suggests that God should be involved in every decision even when He said, already, don't do it..

That position requires that we be robots where God has to manipulate every decision in our lives.

I understand, because of your position (however unbiblically you may interpret it), is based on your view of who God is. So, as you read it, you read into to it your view (however wrong it may be)

 

[blü 2]

in of course. The Ammonites were no different from anyone else.

It reads like an outright invasion of the Lebensraum kind. The only offense of the people invaded is worshiping another god. Religious intolerance for its own sake, or for self-aggrandisement, or for personal or tribal gain, is clearly a sin, no?

It wasn’t preordained. They would have been spared had they repented. (Jeremiah 18:8-20)

No, it was pre-ordained. As I cited in the OP,

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)
​

Then you'll see that Modern Day tribalism, religious intolerance, land seizures, massacres and rapes are no different from their Bronze Age counterparts.

True. But not everyone out on the streets is trying to burn down Minneapolis ─ many, I'd say a fair majority, have an ideal of justice before their eyes.

Ah, but I see you’re already having a walk and talk with @MFlores.

I'm confident he's about to see it my way.

 

[blü 2]

The problem you present suggests that God should be involved in every decision even when He said, already, don't do it..

Ahm, that's not quite the situation.

Instead, as I mentioned, the spirit of God was upon Jephthah when the deal was made, so it's not as though Jephthah thought it all up on his own. Moreover the deal was acceptable to God, who went ahead and caused the Ammonites to come second. Then it was Jephthah's turn to do what he'd said, and that turned out to involve the sacrifice of his daughter. EITHER God had known this all along OR on finding out, did not intervene to prevent it. Instead God let it go ahead, and it must have pleased [him] because [he] raised Jephthah to be Judge (boss man) of Israel.

And then there's 2 Samuel 21 ─ God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul, whose only crime is to be sons of Saul, are put to death by impalement "before the Lord".

And then there's the Jesus matter.

That position requires that we be robots where God has to manipulate every decision in our lives.

The text is unambiguous. In each of these cases, God was the the instigator or direct collaborator. [He] set the deaths up and had them carried out in accordance with [his] wishes.

I understand, because of your position (however unbiblically you may interpret it)

I read it as I'd read any other ancient document, and I also have regard to what we know in history about those times. I pay attention to what it actually says, rather than what anyone may think it ought to say.

your view (however wrong it may be)

Feel free to point out anything the text says that I've missed.

 

[Oeste]

Feel free to point out anything the text says that I've missed.

My goodness, I was afraid you’d never ask….

Both @KenS and @MJFlores made extremely relevant points. Here they are again:

What Jephthah did is what Jephthah did.
It was in his own volition and voluntary act.

That (@blü 2 ) position requires that we be robots where God has to manipulate every decision in our lives.

Your argument is essentially that God is responsible for our free will acts, which, to put it in terms you would understand, is “a nonsense”.

The Holy Spirit does not strip us of our free will. It remains. As KenS pointed out, we do not become automatons or robots once God enters our lives.

Jephthah made a rash vow under his own volition and free will and not because he was “under the [robotic] influence” of the Spirit. As MJFlores has pointed out numerous times before, God does not require us to make human sacrifices to Him. He made that clear with Abraham’s son, but even to this late day some argue as if they never read the memo.

So here’s the part you left out: Even when you make a “rash vow” to the Lord there is still a way out. All Jephthah had to do was pay 10 shekels to the priests and his daughter was free from his vow.

So why didn’t Jephthah pay? You have to remember, cultures were different back then. Apparently Jephthah was a proud man filled with vanity. He had given his word, and his word was worth more than his daughter or 10 shekels. In other words, he kept his “honor” at the expense of his daughter. As such he is no different than Lot, who offered his daughter to the men who wanted to “know” his males guests or of David who lusted after another man’s wife and thought of a “face saving” way to get her: by having her husband killed.

Some say Jephthah was unaware of the Levitical law (Leviticus 27:2-4) which would have released his daughter from his rash vow but I find that unreasonable. Even if he was unaware I’m sure someone would have pointed it out to him, and as Israel’s commander, fresh from a winning battle, he certainly had the money.

And not that that's settled:

 

[MJFlores]

But that's not a condemnation of human sacrifice as such either, instead a complaint about unauthorized behavior and the Wrong God Question again.

Jeremiah 19:5 New International Version (NIV)
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Ezekiel 20:31 New International Version (NIV)
When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your children in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, you Israelites? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will not let you inquire of me.

I believe that offering children as burnt offering was not commanded by God
It was not even mentioned
And never entered God's mind.
These are outright condemnation

Continuing to sacrifice children as burnt offering means
Continuing to make oneself impure
I think it was very clear and that closes the Jephthah incident

Told you the Bible is ALIVE.

Aside from Jephthah's virgin daughter, who is a young woman by the way, were there other incidence of human sacrifices to the only true God offered by Israelites? Was this practiced in regularity?

Judges 11:34-40 New International Version (NIV)
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”

“My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

“You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

From this comes the Israelite tradition that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

She was a young woman, the daughter of Jephthah and definitely a virgin.

No question about that.

 

[blü 2]

My goodness, I was afraid you’d never ask….

Both KenS and made extremely relevant points.

And each time I made an extremely relevant reply which goes like this:

It isn't clear that Jephthah made a free choice. Instead he made the deal while "the Spirit of the Lord was upon him".

If it was a free choice, then EITHER God ─ who was in a special way present with Jephthah at the time ─ already knew the consequences, the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, but failed to warn Jephthah
OR didn't then know but found out later AT WHICH POINT God didn't intervene (as [he]'d intervened with Isaac and would later intervene with Jonah)

so that EITHER WAY God was directly complicit in the sacrifice.

And ─ correct me if I'm wrong ─ since we all think human sacrifice of this kind is morally vile, what God did was morally vile.

(Incidentally, if I saw a human sacrifice being prepared, and there was anything at all I could do that might prevent it, then I'd do it, whether I knew the slightest thing about the circumstances or not. And I suspect you well might do the same thing. Which would make us morally superior to God, not only sitting on [his] hands here but personally conniving in the murder.)

So here’s the part you left out: Even when you make a “rash vow” to the Lord there is still a way out. All Jephthah had to do was pay 10 shekels to the priests and his daughter was free from his vow.

Really? I've read the chapter a number of times but I failed to notice that part.

Please quote it to me.

 

[blü 2]

Jeremiah 19:5 New International Version (NIV)
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

My eyes must be failing me. I see the complaint that "I" didn't command it but I see no complaint that it was a human sacrifice. Indeed, it's implicit in the remark that a human sacrifice is something "I" might have commanded if "I" wanted to.

Ezekiel 20:31 New International Version (NIV)
When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your children in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, you Israelites?

Same again. I see the complaint about worshiping other gods, I see nothing about human sacrifice as such.

And remember, this is the God who commanded the sacrifice of Isaac, this is the God who at the least actively connived in the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, this is the God who refused to lift the famine till seven innocent sons of Saul were put to death by impalement "before the Lord" and this is the God who sacrificed [his] own son to [him]self.

Why would you conclude that a God with form like that disapproved of human sacrifice as such even in the tiniest degree?