The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

[Clear]

Yes, God used His spirit to create the Earth and all visible and invisible creation - Psalms 104:30
God's power and strength are Not material but Energy.
God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic power and strength to create both the invisible and visible creation.

Hi @URAVIP2ME

The scripture you quote is : Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. (kjv)

URAVIP2ME concludes : “Since Isaiah 40:26 says about God's POWER and STRENGTH then that is what God used to create matter.” (post #798)

Your text has three phrases regarding "power", "strength" and "creating"
1) “…behold who hath created these things
2) “…he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might
3) “…For that he is strong in power.


CAN YOU CLARIFY SPECIFICS OF THE CONTEXT AND YOUR INTERPRETATION OF YOUR EXAMPLE TEXT
Are you theorizing that any of these phrases mean that God used Power and strength to create the material earth from absolutely nothing?
Are you theorizing that these phrases means that God used Power and strength to operate upon and form existing matter into the material earth?


ONE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO COMPETING THEORIES
There is at least one major difference between these two competing theories of God creating out of absolutely nothing versus God creating out of existing matter. One theory is illogical and supernatural (illogical and magical) and the other is logical and is accord with what we see happening in nature (logical and natural).

The earlier Judeo-Christian theory where “God created material world from existing matter” is in accordance with natural observation and follows the logical and rational creation of things we can observe happening, such as when a sculptor creates a statue out of an existing substrate.
The later theory where “God created material worlds from absolutely nothing” is supernatural and magical in that it does not follow logical or rational or natural creation of things.


THERE ARE OTHER, PHILOSOPHICAL AND THEOLOGICAL IMPLICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH EACH OF THESE CONFLICTING THEORIES
Theologists and philosophers offer other differences such as moral implications. They point out that IF God is omniscient and omnipotent then he would have known his creation was going to cause a great deal of evil and suffering (because of omniscience) while at the same time he had power to create a world that had no evil and suffering (because of omnipotence). Yet he created a world which has terrible suffering and in which terrible evil exists.

IF God created absolutely all things out of absolutely nothing evil does not exist before he creates but then does exist AFTER he creates, then he is the origin of evil and suffering that he could have prevented.

If, as the early Judeo-Christian text Pistis Sophia describes, that spirit is “self-willed” matter, then certain types of matter has it’s own characteristics such as will as part of it’s own nature and God is not responsible for all evils and suffering.

There are other differences, but the point is that there are multiple important effects that the later theory of God creating out of absolutely “nothing” itself, creates.


Can you give us readers specific clarification regarding your personal interpretation as to how this specific scripture supports whichever theory you are offering readers?


Thanks in advance for more clarification URAVIP2E


Clear
εινεφυφυφιω

Hi URAVIP2ME

WHAT DID GOD CREATE THE MATERIAL WORLDS OUT OF?

You quoted a version of Isaiah 40:26 in support of your theory that God created the material worlds out of his "dynamic energy" and his "power". I agree with you that when ANY being creates a material thing, they typically use energy and power and other characteristics they possess. Whether God creates the material world or a carpenter creates a wooden table, both God and the Carpenter are using their dynamic energy, their power, their wisdom and other abilities to create these material things. When you were asked to clarify if you think Isaiah 40:26 meant that God used energy to create the material world out of "nothing", or simply out of "energy" you simply repeated your basic dogmatic position.

IF, you cannot explain your theory in any logical or rational manner that allows readers to have a clear understanding of what it is you are theorizing, then it will be very difficult to have any conversation regarding your theory since we cannot examine it if we cannot understand it. Do you want to try again to CLARIFY and EXPLAIN your theory in more detail and explain what you think Isaiah 40:26 meant and how Isaiai 40:26 supports your theory?


Clear
εινεσεφιειω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hi URAVIP2ME
WHAT DID GOD CREATE THE MATERIAL WORLDS OUT OF?
You quoted a version of Isaiah 40:26 in support of your theory that God created the material worlds out of his "dynamic energy" and his "power". I agree with you that when ANY being creates a material thing, they typically use energy and power and other characteristics they possess. Whether God creates the material world or a carpenter creates a wooden table, both God and the Carpenter are using their dynamic energy, their power, their wisdom and other abilities to create these material things. When you were asked to clarify if you think Isaiah 40:26 meant that God used energy to create the material world out of "nothing", or simply out of "energy" you simply repeated your basic dogmatic position.
IF, you cannot explain your theory in any logical or rational manner that allows readers to have a clear understanding of what it is you are theorizing, then it will be very difficult to have any conversation regarding your theory since we cannot examine it if we cannot understand it. Do you want to try again to CLARIFY and EXPLAIN your theory in more detail and explain what you think Isaiah 40:26 meant and how Isaiai 40:26 supports your theory?
Clear
εινεσεφιειω

A carpenter uses his already God-given energy to create in the sense of making something.
The something is already there in the case of the carpenter, etc.
I find there is nothing in Scripture to say there was something there other then God with His POWER and His STRENGTH
As Jeremiah 10:12 states He (God) has made the Earth by His POWER
As Jeremiah 27:5 states I (God) made the Earth by my great POWER
As Jeremiah 32:17 states LORD (YHWH) God made the Heaven and Earth by His great POWER
God's POWER is connected to 'God's spirit' at Psalms 104:30 He (God) sends forth His spirit and they are created.
As a Power Plant grid sends forth it's energy, so God sends forth His abundant dynamic energy to create.
Energy to create both the invisible heavenly realm and the visible physical realm.

 

[Clear]

HI @URAVIP2ME

1) REGARDING URAVIP2ME’S USE OF ISAIAH 40:26

Clear asked of URAVIP2ME : “You quoted a version of Isaiah 40:26 in support of your theory that God created the material worlds out of his "dynamic energy" and his "power". … Do you want to try again to CLARIFY and EXPLAIN your theory in more detail and explain what you think Isaiah 40:26 meant and how Isaiai 40:26 supports your theory?”

Since your last post does not reference your use of Isaiah 40:26 that I asked about, I will assume you no longer want to use Isaiah 40:26 in support for your theory?



2) THE LOGIC UNDERLYING THE EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT GOD CREATED THE WORLDS OUT OF PRIOR EXISTING MATTER RATHER THAN OUT OF "NOTHING"
URAVIP2ME said “A carpenter uses his already God-given energy to create in the sense of making something. The something is already there in the case of the carpenter, etc. (Post #802)

Precisely correct. A carpenter makes things out of material that is already there and this is logical and in accordance with nature. Readers would not believe me if I claimed a carpenter made my breakfast table out of “nothing” or out of “power” or out of “wisdom” since that is illogical and irrational and nature doesn’t work that way. Similarly, the early Jewish and Christian believed that that God, who had power and wisdom, used materials that were “already there” or present at the time of creation of this world when he formed the earth out of those materials.

Please understand that my point is not that the early Christian religion is correct and that your religion is incorrect on this point. Your religious beliefs are simply different than the early Christians on this specific point. My point is that the early Judeo-Christian belief that God made the material worlds out of matter and not out of “nothing” is more logical and more rational than the later adoption of a theory where he created material things out of absolutely “nothing”.


3) THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR ATTEMPT TO USE SCRIPTURES TO SUPPORT YOUR THEORY

Why should readers use your interpretation of an English text, made from the non-christian Masoretic of almost a millenia later than the Christian LXX? Why does your interpretation of your text in English have priority over and original language and over the early Christian interpretation of their text?

For examples :
In post #784 We discussed the fact that the ancient Christian LXX of Isaiah 40:26 did not say what your version says and ancient readers did not interpret Isaiah as you interpret it.
In post #795 – We discussed the fact that the ancient Christian LXX of Psalms 104:30 did not say what your version says and ancient readers did not interpret Isaiah as you interpret it.
In post #796 – We discussed the fact that the ancient Christian LXX of Psalms 90:2 did not say what your version says and ancient readers did not interpret Isaiah as you interpret it.

This is the same problem that all of your other scriptures have. They do not say that a material form of “energy” or “power” or “wisdom” becomes a material earth, instead, they tell us merely that God has power and wisdom, and that he uses his power and his wisdom as part of the process of creation.


4) THE PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THE USE OF A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF A NON CHRISTIAN (i.e. non-LXX) BASED TRANSLATION IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE
Remember, the early Christians were not speaking English, but were using koine. This is a problem for your quotes and your interpretation

For example, you said “… Jeremiah 10:12 states He (God) has made the Earth by His POWER”.

However, Jeremiah 10:12 says “[the] Lord, the one making the earth in his strength…” “Κυριος ο ποιησας την γην εν τη ισχυι αυτου…” which is a term meaning “to be able”, “strength”. The writer did not use the term “δυναμις” (dynamis) which is where we get our term “dynamic” associated with the “dynamic power” you described.

The textual reference to “strength” here does not indicate the world consists of a material version of “strength”, it merely indicates that the Lords “strength”, "power", "ability", etc, was used in the process of making the land. So, while I can agree with your statement that “God's spirit is connected to God's POWER and God's STRENGTH in connection to things being created. (URAVIP2ME post #800), I think the early christian belief that the Lord used his strength, power, and wisdom in the formation and molding of the earth is more rational and logical than wisdom or strength being actual material objects out of which God formed the earth.

Secondly consider the preposition “εν” in the first phrase. “Κυριος ο ποιησας την γην εν τη ισχυι αυτου…” The preposition εν is called the “maid of all work” among the Greek prepositions and “by his power” in this case does not mean “consisting of” power as though power were a material thing. In fact it does not indicate “out” of at all. Instead εν is “in”. IF you want to indicate something is made “out” of, then one uses the preposition “εκ” in koine Greek in the same way that “EX-Nihilos is “OUT” of nothing.

But ΕΝ is the opposite of “out of”. Its object is INSIDE of a specific place or condition. For example, Εν αρχε εν ο λογος, “IN the beginning was the word… (Jn 1:1). While it can indicate a time or position (i.e. inside a certain time – “in” the beginning”) it can be inside of a condition “i.e. “In my great power I have done these things…”). Neither useage indicates that earth is made OF God’s strength, but rather God made the earth because he had the ability (ισχυι) to do so. IF the text wanted to indicate the earth was actually made of a material called “strength” or “power” or “wisdom” one expects the Greek to use the words for this such as “δια” or “δι” (through or by, or another word etc.)

If you look as the context of the prior verses it will make clear that the sense and meaning in the statement is that the real God has power to do great things and the idols are powerless, idols do not have power or characteristics which allow them to make do or anything, but rather, man makes them. Read the prior verses.

Even the next phrase where the text says “he hath established the world by his wisdom”, the phrase in LXX is “…ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου…”.

The greek word rendered “established” is not a term used to create (not really even to “establish”), but to “set up”, erect, found, to improve, to recover, or remedy. For example one can use the term to right a boat that is capsized etc.

If I want a surgical eyelid lift, it is an ανορθωση λαιμου (using the same word). A Face lift is an ανόρθωση προσώπου, a "push up" bra is a να φοραω σουτειν ανορθωσης . The point is that this word doesn’t refer to a creative act, but an act of "improvement", a "setting up" or a "remedy of a problem". Thus, Benton, in the LXX renders this phrase more correctly as "who set up the world by his wisdom...".

These texts did not mean the same to the ancient reader that they seem to mean to you. All of the verses you attempt to use to support your theory have similar defects.

WHY should your interpretation of an English text have priority over the interpretation of early Christians with their texts?

Unless you have better data, I suspect this point that the early Christian belief in creation of the earth from matter, (rather than from nothing) is more logical and rational than the later belief that God created the earth from “nothing” is made and I don’t suppose I have more to add on this historical point.


In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good URAVIP2ME.

Clear
εινεσιδρακω

 

[Clear]

Clear said to Muffled : “I like the point that you made that the Messiah Jesus, (who, in early Judeo-Christian worldview, pre-existed with the Father as "the Word" (John 1:1), also received and deserved some degree of glory even before his incarnation. I feel as though there are many roles the messiah played both before and after his birth for which we owe him our deepest gratitude, but which we, typically, do not consider.” (post #770)

Muffled replied : “I believe that view is in error. It is God who has always existed as the "Word" and only becomes Jesus as God inhabits flesh. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father…I believe the only role before His birth is that of the prophecy of Messiah. (post #791)


Hi @Muffled

My reference (in post #770) regarding the glory of the Messiah (Jesus) before his birth was in reference to early Christianitys' belief in the various roles of the Messiah before his incarnation at birth. In this case, I was referring to the role of the Messiah (Jesus) who was with the father in the beginning, before creation, and who was the one who was directed by his father to create the world.

Hope your journey is good

Clear
εινεσιδρακω

 

[Prendomun]

And, yes, frankly all this squabbling between "God's People" has undermined my belief in the whole mess! Don't worry, the Muslims sects do the same sort of "sibling rivalry". Having raised a family, sometimes the things I see cause me to feel that I am in the middle of my Children's squabbling. My mother used to whip us, all six, with a green willow switch. I'm still very sure of the existence of a Creator, but humans are dismal at ordering their own lives. Perhaps we were not created to ever govern ourselves? Did the Creator always know that a superior being was going to have to come and do that?

Meanwhile, the Jews have been quietly devising many/most of the world's scientific advances, and smugly allowing the Gentile Dogs to wreck the house.

We create a Creator to govern ourselves so it is bound to be flawed. Best to take responsibility ourselves and use the wisdom we have. Parents don't want their kids to keep depending on them.

 

[Muffled]

"Not in the text........." interesting that you said that. A few things on that one. Dont you bring in words that arent in the text too? And not just you, but other people too. Incarnate, God the Son, Jesus is God, etc, etc. I can keep on going if you want.... Isnt it you.. that is putting worldly interpretations on things?

I believe things can be derived from the text. I believe incarnate means in a body. Since Jesus is God then He is God in a body. The derivatives are consistent with the text. So I will say also that your words also were not consistent with the text.

 

[Muffled]

Clear said to Muffled : “I like the point that you made that the Messiah Jesus, (who, in early Judeo-Christian worldview, pre-existed with the Father as "the Word" (John 1:1), also received and deserved some degree of glory even before his incarnation. I feel as though there are many roles the messiah played both before and after his birth for which we owe him our deepest gratitude, but which we, typically, do not consider.” (post #770)

Muffled replied : “I believe that view is in error. It is God who has always existed as the "Word" and only becomes Jesus as God inhabits flesh. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father…I believe the only role before His birth is that of the prophecy of Messiah. (post #791)


Hi @Muffled

My reference (in post #770) regarding the glory of the Messiah (Jesus) before his birth was in reference to early Christianitys' belief in the various roles of the Messiah before his incarnation at birth. In this case, I was referring to the role of the Messiah (Jesus) who was with the father in the beginning, before creation, and who was the one who was directed by his father to create the world.

Hope your journey is good

Clear
εινεσιδρακω

I believe that is impossible. There was no Jesus until His birth.

 

[Muffled]

We create a Creator to govern ourselves so it is bound to be flawed. Best to take responsibility ourselves and use the wisdom we have. Parents don't want their kids to keep depending on them.

I believe you are in error thinking the true creator is one of our creation. No doubt the Hindu concept of a creator is man made but that is not our concept.

I believe the Father would like that but at present His help is absolutely necessary.

 

[moorea944]

I believe things can be derived from the text. I believe incarnate means in a body. Since Jesus is God then He is God in a body. The derivatives are consistent with the text. So I will say also that your words also were not consistent with the text.

Ok, again, not really sure why you keep on talking about this "Jesus is God" thing.... Jesus is not God in a body. They are two different people if you want to call it that. If God was in Jesus's body, then who's in heaven? Doesnt make sense, does it...

 

[Clear]

REGARDING JOHN 17:5
“And now, glorify me Father with thine own self, with the Glory which I had with the before the world was.”


Clear said to Muffled : “I like the point that you made that the Messiah Jesus, (who, in early Judeo-Christian worldview, pre-existed with the Father as "the Word" (John 1:1), also received and deserved some degree of glory even before his incarnation. I feel as though there are many roles the messiah played both before and after his birth for which we owe him our deepest gratitude, but which we, typically, do not consider.” (post #770)

Muffled replied : “I believe that view is in error. It is God who has always existed as the "Word" and only becomes Jesus as God inhabits flesh. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father…I believe the only role before His birth is that of the prophecy of Messiah. (post #791)

Clear replied : My reference (in post #770) regarding the glory of the Messiah (Jesus) before his birth was in reference to early Christianitys' belief in the various roles of the Messiah before his incarnation at birth. In this case, I was referring to the role of the Messiah (Jesus) who was with the father in the beginning, before creation, and who was the one who was directed by his father to create the world.

Muffled replied : I believe that is impossible. There was no Jesus until His birth. (post #807)



Hi @Muffled
I was not referring to your Christian religion, rather I was referring to early Christian religion. These two religions are not the same on this belief.

The early Christian worldview was that Jesus existed prior to creation and had Glory with his Father and part of the honor the pre-mortal Jesus was due, was partly because he administrated the creation of the earth under the direction of his Father.

For example, though New Testament Hebrews makes the innocuous statement that “God…hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” (kjv Heb 1:1-2). While your religion does not believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, early Christianity describes their belief that the Son/messiah/word of God existed prior to his birth and that he had glory as the one who was the creator of the earth (and he was directed by God to do so).

This verse in Hebrews traditionally referred to the time before creation when the Messiah was “…made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” Vs 4

For example, the prophet enoch spoke of this same tradition and time period, when, before creation, “ At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days. This time period was “… even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits.” And he became the Chosen One... (c.f.1st Enoch 48:1-7)

The tradition of the Son of Man becoming chosen by God as the savior (i.e. the lamb slain before the foundation of the world” and his special servant) is woven into early textual histories just as his role as “the Word of God” (i.e. the “Logos”).

Thus many of the early Hellenistic synagogal prayers reflect God the Father, having create the world through Jesus.

For example, one eucharistic prayer reads : We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. 4 O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him, and you planted deeply in our souls a law; and you prepared for men the things (necessary) for communion; " (aposCon 7.26. 1-3) , Other synagogal prayers relate this same belief. Barnabas also does. Ezra, phillip, odes of Solomon, Jewish Haggadah, secret John and many other early Judeo-Christian texts describe this same early Christian doctrine.

Clement, the colleague of the apostle Peter taught the early Christian saints this same doctrine, referring to God the Father as “ ... the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ…“.

Clement still realized that the Father is the “primal source” since all is done by direction of and in in accordance with the Fathers plan. The Father commands, and the Word or Logos, Jesus, obeys. 1 Clement 59:2-3;

The were many reasons why the Messiah, as the word of God was worthy of honor, but in this specific case, I am referring to his role as creator of world under the direction of God, his Father, whom he was with. Thus he asked in John 17:5 for his Father to “..glorify me Father with thine own self, with the Glory which I had with the before the world was.”

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful, especially if you ever become interested in early Christian history and their beliefs.

Clear
εινεακακακω

 

[Prendomun]

I believe you are in error thinking the true creator is one of our creation. No doubt the Hindu concept of a creator is man made but that is not our concept.

I believe the Father would like that but at present His help is absolutely necessary.

Curious beings we are! We want to know and label the phenomena of life and possess the answers. I found myself wrapped so tight in Christian belief I almost suffocated. Now I am an equal member of the human race and better for it. What a relief to not have to know.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

Hi 74x12, I tried to start a conversation with you but it wouldn't allow me to. Do you have me blocked or anything?

 

[74x12]

Hi 74x12, I tried to start a conversation with you but it wouldn't allow me to. Do you have me blocked or anything?

No, of course not ...

I think the forum limits the amount of conversations you can have at once. Because we already had a conversation started I think that might be why. I locked our old conversation. So try to start a new one now and hopefully it works.

 

[sparcz1978]

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 makes that much easily clear. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Jewish authorship:
The arguments from Arianism that this is speaking of "a" god are flawed for a few reasons. First of all the author is a Jew and that's not a Jewish idea. The author is obviously familiar with the Torah and it's commandments. Including "Hear oh Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." And "Thou shalt have no other elohim before me."

So the concept of two gods is against Judaism and it's silly to think that the Jewish author of John would be promoting the worship of two gods.

Influence from Greek philosophy?
Jewish authorship also casts serious doubt on such ideas as that the author is speaking of the so called "divine logos" of Greek philosophy. If the author is a Jew then what does he have to do with Greek philosophy? So if the author's views on the "Word" can be explained without resorting to Greek philosophy and instead by resorting to Jewish literal; especially the Torah and Tanakh. Then that is what should be done rather than assuming the author is influenced by foreign(gentile, pagan) philosophy.

So in understanding the "Word" that was made flesh we should look to 1st century Jewish ideas of the Word of God.

Context:
Secondly, if the author is really promoting the worship of two gods then we should be able to actually see that in the context. Meaning why would the author just stop with a statement like "The Word was with God and the Word was "a" God"? Especially since this can more easily be translated as "The Word was with God and the Word was God".

Therefore Arianists need more proof to show John actually meant to be speaking of two gods rather than one.

This proof they do not have. In fact when we compare John 10:30 with John 1:1 we see an obvious link. Meaning that the author here is showing us exactly how he views the relationship of the Word with God. Jesus is essentially the Word made flesh, but somehow He is "one" with the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30).

There are many Biblical Writings of Apostle John about the True God and Jesus Christ the Son of God..

John wrote the Statements of Jesus Christ

John 8:40 You Seek to Kill me, a MAN who told you the truth which I heard from God.

John 17:1-3
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If God is Spirit what the Difference in Jesus Christ


Luke 24:39
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”




Revelation 1:1-3 (King James Version)



The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.



Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I Don't think that Apostle John will Contradict Jesus Christ Statements about God for the sake of John 1:1 and John 1:14 wrong understanding of "Trinitarian or Jesus is God Doctrines"

 

[sparcz1978]

Understanding John 1:1 and John 1:14

John 17:1-3
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

We must understand the Verse John 1: 1; 14 without contradiction on John 17:1-3 and John 20:17 which was written also by Apostle John .

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the

glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


According to the Trinitarian doctrines, In this verses God Incarnate as Man Jesus Christ….


John did not wrote that Jesus Christ as the Son is the true God….but the Father

Question : What is the meaning of the “Word” in this Verse?

Answer : According to the religious experts and also agreed by the other Church Leaders

Thought is the Word from God (BTKfr.26)

Word and the Son he called a kind of faint thought comes to the Father


Question: Why the Bible say “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”

Answer: 1st Because there is no Christ exist before the creation, but He was recognized in the Mind of God before the creation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


FOREORDAINED = was recognized in the Mind

2nd God Created Everything using His Word.. " GOD SAID"

Genesis 1:3
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.


Genesis 1:6
Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

Genesis 1:9
Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

Genesis 1:11
Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.

Genesis 1:14
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Genesis 1:20
Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”

Genesis 1:24
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


Question: Why they say “the word was GOD”?

Answer: Because there is no Word from God that will not happen and the Word of God is Powerful

Psalm 29:4
The voice of the Lord is powerful, The voice of the Lord is majestic.

Psalm 68:33
To Him who rides upon the highest heavens, which are from ancient times;
Behold, He speaks forth with His voice, a mighty voice

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Isaiah 43:13
Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?


Question: What is God?
Answer: God is all-Powerful


Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,
I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


al·might·y [awl mtee]

adjective
all-powerful: having supreme unquestionable power over everything

• almighty God

Question: what kind of Word which is from God

Answer: No Word from God that will not Happen or fulfilled because it is Powerful

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 24:34-35
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 1:37
For no word from God will ever fail.”

Isaiah 46:11
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.

So in the above mentioned "The Word was God" the consumption in the term "God"does not name (Noun), but feels kind (Adjective). God used the term to Classify the term "Word""

Question: what is the meaning of “the Word was made flesh”?
Answer: Fulfilled the Word and one Man was the fulfillment .

Mat 1:17-20; 22
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon arefourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man,and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:22
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Question: Which of the Word of God was prophecy and fulfilled to Jesus Christ?
Answer: The Promise of GOD to Abraham and to Moses


Deuteronomy 18:18-19
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Genesis 17:6-8
And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:29
if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Man made Invented Doctrine Of Trinity did not understand the Bible...they Used John 1:1, John 1:14 without knowledge that they Contradict another John's Writings specially the Very own Statements Jesus Christ.

 

[Muffled]

Ok, again, not really sure why you keep on talking about this "Jesus is God" thing.... Jesus is not God in a body. They are two different people if you want to call it that. If God was in Jesus's body, then who's in heaven? Doesnt make sense, does it...

I believe like most people that you keep forgetting that God is everywhere. If God wanted He could inhabit hundreds of bodies and in effect that partially happens with the Paraclete.

 

[Muffled]

Curious beings we are! We want to know and label the phenomena of life and possess the answers. I found myself wrapped so tight in Christian belief I almost suffocated. Now I am an equal member of the human race and better for it. What a relief to not have to know.

I believe one can be lost in the midst of Christian legalism but one is never lost who has received Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Muffled]

Clear said to Muffled : “I like the point that you made that the Messiah Jesus, (who, in early Judeo-Christian worldview, pre-existed with the Father as "the Word" (John 1:1), also received and deserved some degree of glory even before his incarnation. I feel as though there are many roles the messiah played both before and after his birth for which we owe him our deepest gratitude, but which we, typically, do not consider.” (post #770)

Muffled replied : “I believe that view is in error. It is God who has always existed as the "Word" and only becomes Jesus as God inhabits flesh. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father…I believe the only role before His birth is that of the prophecy of Messiah. (post #791)


Hi @Muffled

My reference (in post #770) regarding the glory of the Messiah (Jesus) before his birth was in reference to early Christianitys' belief in the various roles of the Messiah before his incarnation at birth. In this case, I was referring to the role of the Messiah (Jesus) who was with the father in the beginning, before creation, and who was the one who was directed by his father to create the world.

Hope your journey is good

Clear
εινεσιδρακω

I believe that early belief still survives in teaching. It amounts to a form of idolatry in that it is a three god concept.

 

[74x12]

There are many Biblical Writings of Apostle John about the True God and Jesus Christ the Son of God..

John wrote the Statements of Jesus Christ

John 8:40 You Seek to Kill me, a MAN who told you the truth which I heard from God.

John 17:1-3
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If God is Spirit what the Difference in Jesus Christ


Luke 24:39
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”




Revelation 1:1-3 (King James Version)



The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.



Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I Don't think that Apostle John will Contradict Jesus Christ Statements about God for the sake of John 1:1 and John 1:14 wrong understanding of "Trinitarian or Jesus is God Doctrines"

Looks like you're a little late to the party. We've gone back and forth on verses like these numerous times. But, just to address your one point about Jesus not being a Spirit like God is. Of course Jesus had a physical body. However; we can't ignore that all humans (which would include Jesus) have a spirit as well.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46)

So, you might say well that proves Jesus is not God because God will receive Jesus' Spirit. But, that ignores the fact that God can send out His Spirit to different places. As we read in Psalm 104:30. So, my belief is that God sent His Spirit to inhabit the human body of Jesus.

As we read in Colossians 2:8-9

Colossians 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So all the divine nature was indwelling the body of Jesus. The same idea is seen in Colossians 1:19. Even though the KJV adds that it "pleased the Father" the actual Greek has no such saying. It just states that it pleased the "fullness" (which means the fullness of God) to dwell in Him. So all the fullness of God was inhabiting the human body of Jesus.

Colossians 1:19 (WEB)
For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him,

In Hebrews 10:5 we find that the human body of Jesus is what was created in the womb of Mary. But, Jesus' Spirit is not said to be created.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

But the Spirit of Jesus came forth from God. So we see that in John 8:42; Jesus claims to have came forth and proceeded from God. This is in the same sense that the Word of God proceeds out of the mouth of God in Matthew 4:4 and Jesus also claims to have been sent by God as in the same way the Spirit is sent from God in Psalm 104:30.

Finally, Jesus claims that not only did He proceed from God; but that He will return again to God in John 16:28.

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Just exactly as we see that God sends out His "Word" and that when the "Word" has accomplished it's mission it again returns to God as is implied in Isaiah 55:11. The Word of God does not return to God void. That is without effect. But it does return to God when it is finished it's mission successfully.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So, the "Spirit" that was in the man Jesus was sent out by God to inhabit the human body God made and when it was finished it returns to God again.

As we read in Ephesians 4:10

Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

In Ephesians 4:10 we find two key points that point to the Divinity of Christ. First of all, and most pertinent to what I have been saying. When Jesus ascends to heaven He "fills all things". This means He returns as I've been saying to God and so He fills all things as God always does. (See Acts 17:28)

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

God fills all things, and now when Jesus ascends then He does also because He has returned to God as He said.

Secondly, Jesus ascends far above all heavens. That is very important also and hard to be refuted. Because this implies Jesus ascends to the place of the "most high God". Literally the God who is "most high" must be in the highest place. That is up above all the heavens. As Jesus ascended to the place of the most High. Higher than all heavens. Even higher than the very throne of God. As it is written "heaven is thy throne and the earth is thy footstool ...".

By comparison satan/lucifer only wanted to ascend into heaven and was condemned for it. (Isaiah 14:13) Yet, we see Jesus ascending far above heaven.

So when Jesus ascends far above all heavens; He ascends even higher than God's throne. This means Jesus is the most High God.

 

[moorea944]

I believe like most people that you keep forgetting that God is everywhere. If God wanted He could inhabit hundreds of bodies and in effect that partially happens with the Paraclete.

God is everywhere.. why would you even think I think that? But what does it mean that God is everywhere? God's spirit is everywhere. God is heaven, He doesnt come down to earth. Angels do and they represent our Heavenly Father. God can also manifest Himself in people and of course He does that in angels too. Is that what you mean?