The Grand Jury is In

[Twilight Hue]

I expect consequences similar to the Los Angeles riots in the spring of 1992 following the trial of four police officers acquitted in the "Rodney King" beating. Current consequences to be determined.

The government will just use harder methods. Laws will be passed that nobody likes, and the encroaching dystopia continues its progression unabated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The government will just use harder methods. Laws will be passed that nobody likes, and the encroaching dystopia continues its progression unabated.

Government is made up of people, so they have a choice.

 

[Heyo]

The government will just use harder methods. Laws will be passed that nobody likes, and the encroaching dystopia continues its progression unabated.

Yep. The only question is: when does the public realise that enough is enough. When will people understand that in a system that allows things like Breonna Taylor to happen they can be next?

 

[MNoBody]

if anyone is Above the law, then there is no law.

and,
a nation of many laws is in the business of cultivating crime.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yep. The only question is: when does the public realise that enough is enough. When will people understand that in a system that allows things like Breonna Taylor to happen they can be next?

I look at countries where things have already gotton worse to see what happens. Prospects don't look promising as to where any flashpoint lays.

It seems people today, once enough pressure is applied, will just submissively raise their hands up in the air and say something to the effect that theres nothing they can do and simply let the government do anything they want to them.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is hard to believe in the system when the system actively protects officers involved in the death of citizens they were charged to protect. Look, they charged her boyfriend with attempted murder for defending himself (it was eventually dropped) and the officers involved got off free for actually killing someone. Then, the family receives a settlement as hush money for them to go away.

Nothing has changed and this is a huge middle finger to all those watching in hope of justice.

The problem I see is that the cops appeared to be doing
what was expected of them (except for one). Taylor died
because of the system operating as designed, ie, no knock
warrants initiating surprise & panic. One resident responded
reasonably by shooting at the assailants' (the cops) breaking
& entering. The cops (except for one) responded reasonably
defending themselves.

So where's the crime?
Not with the cops (except for one), but with the legislators
who enabled such a procedure, & whoever supervised the
department, & failed to exercise appropriate control.
We need high level change....not prosecutions just because
people are angry, & want someone...anyone to hang.

 

[Heyo]

The problem I see is that the cops appeared to be doing
what was expected of them (except for one).

The problem that I see is that Breonna Taylor is dead.

Taylor died
because of the system operating as designed, ie, no knock
warrants initiating surprise & panic. One resident responded
reasonably by shooting at the assailants' (the cops) breaking
& entering. The cops (except for one) responded reasonably
defending themselves.

So where's the crime?
Not with the cops (except for one), but with the legislators
who enabled such a procedure, & whoever supervised the
department, & failed to exercise appropriate control.

The cops lied to a judge to get that warrant. The cops didn't activate their body cams. The cops didn't identify themselves (most probably). At least one cop shot without aim. One cop shot an innocent person.

We need high level change....not prosecutions just because
people are angry, & want someone...anyone to hang.

People don't want someone to hang, people want justice.
I totally agree that there has to be systemic change and that systemic change has to include that cops who shot innocent people are made responsible.

Even if the cops did everything right (which they didn't), letting them off scot free is a PR nightmare. In such a case you first present the culprit, then you let the innocent go. Not even opening a trial is exactly the system that has to change.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem that I see is that Breonna Taylor is dead.

Death doesn't always mean that someone is guilty of murder.

The cops lied to a judge to get that warrant. The cops didn't activate their body cams. The cops didn't identify themselves (most probably). At least one cop shot without aim. One cop shot an innocent person.

They claim to have identified themselves.
That's an issue to be adjudicated.

People don't want someone to hang, people want justice.
I totally agree that there has to be systemic change and that systemic change has to include that cops who shot innocent people are made responsible.

Even if the cops did everything right (which they didn't), letting them off scot free is a PR nightmare. In such a case you first present the culprit, then you let the innocent go. Not even opening a trial is exactly the system that has to change.

I agree about the nightmare.
But I also see big problems with trying to prosecute them for the shooting.

 

[Heyo]

Death doesn't always mean that someone is guilty of murder.

Death by a bullet almost always means that someone pulled a trigger.
It doesn't have to be murder, it just can be reckless endangerment leading to death.

They claim to have identified themselves.
That's an issue to be adjudicated.

That's the word: adjudicated. Brought before a judge and jury to investigate and decide. (And given that the cops had the tools to document their correct behaviour by their bodycams in advance, had the order to do so and chose to ignore that order and already lied to a judge, I'd say that their testimony is pretty worthless.)

I agree about the nightmare.
But I also see big problems with trying to prosecute them for the shooting.

I don't. A trial is not a conviction.
An innocent person is dead. There is ample evidence of misconduct. Not opening a trial is obstruction of justice.
That is the systemic injustice: cops don't even face trial. Their innocence is presumed without evidence, even against evidence. They are above the law.

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure how oblivious we are. Many of my generation (millennials) know things are FUBAR but it's the old farts (sorry, not sorry) who are in power and running society into the ground, such as the geriatrics in both houses of Congress and the White House. Nothing will ever change as long as we keep putting elderly career politicians in power. Having a bunch of old people run your country seems to be a marker of decline, to be honest. They should be retired.

You have the MAKE THEM retire. They will not give up their money and power willingly. And so far, I don't see you all gearing up for the fight that's going to require.

 

[Revoltingest]

Death by a bullet almost always means that someone pulled a trigger.
It doesn't have to be murder, it just can be reckless endangerment leading to death.

Of course.
And one cop is being charged with that.
But if the wrongful shooting is due to bad law & police policy,
then it strikes me that the cops aren't the guilty parties.

That's the word: adjudicated. Brought before a judge and jury to investigate and decide. (And given that the cops had the tools to document their correct behaviour by their bodycams in advance, had the order to do so and chose to ignore that order and already lied to a judge, I'd say that their testimony is pretty worthless.)

The lack of body cams didn't cause the death though.

I don't. A trial is not a conviction.
An innocent person is dead. There is ample evidence of misconduct. Not opening a trial is obstruction of justice.
That is the systemic injustice: cops don't even face trial. Their innocence is presumed without evidence, even against evidence. They are above the law.

If the misconduct isn't the cause of death,
then trying them for the death makes no sense.

 

[tytlyf]

They claim to have identified themselves.

What they claim is irrelevant. There was no identification. There was no knock. Sounds like self defense to me. No body cams when they were required? Motive.

 

[PureX]

Of course.
And one cop is being charged with that.
But if the wrongful shooting is due to bad law & police policy,
then it strikes me that the cops aren't the guilty parties.

The lack of body cams didn't cause the death though.

If the misconduct isn't the cause of death,
then trying them for the death makes no sense.

Cops don't stop being citizens when the take a badge, any more than soldiers do. They are still responsible for their actions and their consequences.

 

[Revoltingest]

Cops don't stop being citizens when the take a badge, any more than soldiers do. They are still responsible for their actions and their consequences.

There's a problem if people generally believe that the law
is proper, & that what police do is approved. In such a
situation, this isn't like committing a war crime under orders.

What I see are problems with the law & with standard police
conduct. To blame the cops for a bad system might satisfy
the protesters' lust for vengeance, but it's wrong.
Legislators, judges (who approve these no knock warrants),
& chiefs of police are the culprits. I'd rather prosecute the
legislators who designed this system. Of course, that's
impossible. But they are most culpable.

 

[PureX]

I think we can blame the cops when they do not act to counter what the can, or should, see as a not only "bad" system, but a deadly, and even murderous one.

 

[tytlyf]

There's a problem if people generally believe that the law
is proper, & that what police do is approved.

Do you support "no-knock" warrants? Yes/no

 

[PureX]

There's a problem if people generally believe that the law is proper, & that what police do is approved. In such a situation, this isn't like committing a war crime under orders.

A lot of people generally believe it's OK to commit war crimes in a war, too. Nevertheless, those responsible are still responsible, and should be held accountable. If for no other reason than to make their comrades in arms think twice about it.

What I see are problems with the law & with standard police conduct. To blame the cops for a bad system might satisfy the protesters' lust for vengeance, but it's wrong.
Legislators, judges (who approve these no knock warrants), & chiefs of police are the culprits. I'd rather prosecute the legislators who designed this system. Of course, that's impossible. But they are most culpable.

Obeying bad orders doesn't fly, and shouldn't. Yes, the people who give those orders are also responsible, and should be held to account. But we cannot excuse the men who pull the triggers. Ignorance and obedience are not an excuse.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you support "no-knock" warrants? Yes/no

No.
Do you?

But I could allow for rare exceptions,
provided there is great scrutiny &
justification for the risk of violence
in order to avoid greater violence.

 

[Revoltingest]

A lot of people generally believe it's OK to commit war crimes in a war, too. Nevertheless, those responsible are still responsible, and should be held accountable. If for no other reason than to make their comrades in arms think twice about it.
Obeying bad orders doesn't fly, and shouldn't. Yes, the people who give those orders are also responsible, and should be held to account. But we cannot excuse the men who pull the triggers. Ignorance and obedience are not an excuse.

It's wrong to equate war crimes with standard police
operating procedures. War crimes are not SOP.
The problem is far more the procedures than the
cops (usually).

I think you're letting the legislators & judges off the hook.
They approve this crap. They must be stopped.
Until then, it'll keep happening.

 

[tytlyf]

No.
Do you?

But I could allow for rare exceptions,
provided there is great scrutiny &
justification for the risk of violence
in order to avoid greater violence.

No