The Grand Jury is In

[Heyo]

I think you're letting the legislators & judges off the hook.
They approve this crap. They must be stopped.
Until then, it'll keep happening.

I think you're letting the police & DA off the hook.
They do this crap, often against direct orders.

But you are right in that it is not only the police. It is a systemic problem and needs a systemic approach. That includes legislative, administrative and personal change.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you're letting the police & DA off the hook.
They do this crap, often against direct orders.

People are indeed "off the hook" when they committed no crime.
I lay blame at the feet of those who cause what happened.
In this case, the cops are just tools....government officials
created this system in which around 50,000 such warrants
are executed yearly. The real problem is that this isn't just
some aberration....it's standard practice & entirely legal.

A grand jury cannot indict based upon a generalization of what
happens "often". Courts must look at individuals, the actual
events, & the law....which allows no-knock-warrants.
What did they do in violation of orders in this particular case?

Again, I see mobs who want vengeance, & don't care one whit
about the law. They want the cops to fry, whether guilty or
innocent. Lacking that, they shoot other cops.

But you are right in that it is not only the police. It is a systemic problem and needs a systemic approach. That includes legislative, administrative and personal change.

Woohoo!
Detente.

Some interesting info about those warrants....
No-knock warrant - Wikipedia
It's very common for cops to kill innocent residents
during these no-knock raids, & see no prosecution.
Example from the link....
5 years since Laurens County man David Hooks killed by deputies | 13wmaz.com
The media give the impression that this is a problem
just for blacks. Untrue. It's a problem for all people.

 

[Heyo]

People are indeed "off the hook" when they committed no crime.
I lay blame at the feet of those who cause what happened.
In this case, the cops are just tools....government officials
created this system.

I refuse to see people as "just tools".

And, yes, the government created the system. The first error in the system is to free cops from their responsibility. It is one of the errors easiest to fix.

If this doesn't happen, people who are "just tools" will do what people naturally do. They start killing cops. Can't blame them. It is an almost automatic response to government failure.

A grand jury cannot indict based upon a generalization of what
happens "often". Courts must look at individuals, the actual
events, & the law.
What did they do in violation of orders in this particular case?

We went over this. And the first problem is that this case isn't even going to the courts.

Again, I see mobs who want vengeance, & don't care one whit
about the law. They want the cops to fry, whether guilty or
innocent. Lacking that, they shoot other cops.

Yep. As I said, a reaction that was predictable.

Woohoo!
Detente.

The goal of every good debate.

 

[Revoltingest]

I refuse to see people as "just tools".

I understand.
But in this case, that's how they functioned.
They had orders, & they did as programmed they were trained.
This means that primary culpability goes to those creating the
policies with these foreseeable wrongful consequences.

And, yes, the government created the system. The first error in the system is to free cops from their responsibility. It is one of the errors easiest to fix.

If cops became responsible for bad government policy,
you'd see very few people willing to take the job.
Better yet....make government responsible. If a judge
issued a warrant without due diligence, then sanction
them. If a police chief's management resulted in such
carnage, then sanction them.

If this doesn't happen, people who are "just tools" will do what people naturally do. They start killing cops. Can't blame them. It is an almost automatic response to government failure.

I do indeed blame people who kill cops....any random
cop they target out of anger & vengeance. Sanctions
should be based upon the individual act & the law...
...not just killing anyone who belongs to some group.
Otherwise, this rationale could justify cops killing any
protester just because some of them shoot cops.

We went over this. And the first problem is that this case isn't even going to the courts.

What is the law, & what is the crime worthy of prosecution?
Apparently the grand jury saw no compelling answer to that.
To argue otherwise requires answers.

Yep. As I said, a reaction that was predictable.

No argument here.

The goal of every good debate.

Good for you....but some here seem to oppose agreement.
(They're tedious to deal with.)

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When I took the test for a police officer when I was younger as a lot of young people did in my day, one of my fellow candidates had an interesting take on the prospect of becoming an officer.

Quote:

"We are going to be Gods"!

On a similar note, have you read the email sent by Jonathan Mattingly to his precinct before the verdict?

Check it out here:
Twitter

There really is a very serious problem with police officers genuinely believing that they are some kind of unstoppable superhero in a constant battle against the irredeemable forces of evil. It's actually chilling.

 

[Twilight Hue]

But no one in control is listening. And not enough of the rest of us are willing to care about the well-being of others. As long as the cops aren't shooting at us, we really just don't care. Our culture has became an 'every man for himself' environment. A few people rise up, speak out, and then are lost in the sea of greed and stupidity that has become the United States of America.

Its because the system is purposely designed to benefit and protect those in charge and there is no desire to change any of it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

On a similar note, have you read the email sent by Jonathan Mattingly to his precinct before the verdict?

Check it out here:
Twitter

There really is a very serious problem with police officers genuinely believing that they are some kind of unstoppable superhero in a constant battle against the irredeemable forces of evil. It's actually chilling.

I think the nexus revolves around the policy of "Qualified Immunity" which enables and even promotes this kind of behavior and attitude since its implementation. Not just with police officers, but any government offical* with enforcement powers.

It's not a pleasant dictate, that's for sure and understandably chilling. Even worse, how long has it been going on now?

Qualified immunity is a blank check for government overreach | Pacific Legal Foundation

People are just too scared to stop and challenge it and understandably so.

*...or agent and that is a whole nother can o' worms..

 

[Heyo]

I understand.
But in this case, that's how they functioned.
They had orders, & they did as programmed they were trained.
This means that primary culpability goes to those creating the
policies with these foreseeable wrongful consequences.

They had orders to activate their bodycams - they didn't.
It is not only that cops are shielded from their superiors errors, they are also shielded from their own responsibilities.

If cops became responsible for bad government policy,
you'd see very few people willing to take the job.

It would be enough if they'd take responsibility for their own deeds - but they don't have to.

Better yet....make government responsible. If a judge
issued a warrant without due diligence, then sanction
them. If a police chief's management resulted in such
carnage, then sanction them.

Yes, by all means. Find the responsible party and sanction them. But don't act as if the death of an innocent person is an accident that couldn't have been prevented. That is the current policy and it happens too often and there is justified unrest about it.

I do indeed blame people who kill cops....any random
cop they target out of anger & vengeance. Sanctions
should be based upon the individual act & the law...
...not just killing anyone who belongs to some group.
Otherwise, this rationale could justify cops killing any
protester just because some of them shoot cops.

Well, that is more or less what is the case now.

What is the law, & what is the crime worthy of prosecution?
Apparently the grand jury saw no compelling answer to that.

Dead people are always a reason for investigation, imo.

Imagine getting a visit from the cops in the middle of the night who shoot and kill Mrs. Revoltingest. And a Grand Jury tells you "sh!t happens, don't take it serious". Would you?

 

[PureX]

Its because the system is purposely designed to benefit and protect those in charge and there is no desire to change any of it.

The more they take from us, the more we turn on each other. That's the saddest part of all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The more they take from us, the more we turn on each other. That's the saddest part of all.

I wonder if we are past the point of no return. If not just yet, soon enough.

 

[Tambourine]

I understand.
But in this case, that's how they functioned.
They had orders, & they did as programmed they were trained.
This means that primary culpability goes to those creating the
policies with these foreseeable wrongful consequences.

If cops became responsible for bad government policy,
you'd see very few people willing to take the job.
Better yet....make government responsible. If a judge
issued a warrant without due diligence, then sanction
them. If a police chief's management resulted in such
carnage, then sanction them.

"I was only obeying orders" didn't fly 75 years ago in Nuremberg.

 

[Revoltingest]

They had orders to activate their bodycams - they didn't.

That's not a basis for prosecution for shooting Taylor.

It is not only that cops are shielded from their superiors errors, they are also shielded from their own responsibilities.

No argument against that.

It would be enough if they'd take responsibility for their own deeds - but they don't have to.

This is a factor in why I'd prefer that policing be made a
profession far more difficult to enter, & requiring far more
training.

Yes, by all means. Find the responsible party and sanction them. But don't act as if the death of an innocent person is an accident that couldn't have been prevented. That is the current policy and it happens too often and there is justified unrest about it.

I'm hoping for change in the whole process.
But legislators can only be held responsible
by turning them out of office. Tis no crime
to create bad legislation. Were it so, then
Joe Biden would be imprisoned for the 94
Crime Bill.

Dead people are always a reason for investigation, imo.

There is an investigation.

Imagine getting a visit from the cops in the middle of the night who shoot and kill Mrs. Revoltingest. And a Grand Jury tells you "sh!t happens, don't take it serious". Would you?

Perhaps you think I'm defending what the cops did.
I'm not.....just saying that the grand jury's decision to
not indict for murder appears reasonable.
FYI, I've opposed no-knock warrants except in unusual
circumstances when the benefits outweigh the risks.
This should be rare, greatly scrutinized, & carried out
with tremendous care.

We're covering & re-covering well trodden ground.

 

[Revoltingest]

"I was only obeying orders" didn't fly 75 years ago in Nuremberg.

Read the thread.
I already addressed the war crimes analogy's inapplicability.

 

[Heyo]

Perhaps you think I'm defending what the cops did.

No. I think we agree on most of the details. Just ...

I'm not.....just saying that the grand jury's decision to
not indict for murder appears reasonable.

That is our point of contention.

And it is not only in this case (but there are few cases so clear) that victims and potential victims of police misconduct are, imo, justified in their rage against the system.

There are no accidents when people are shot by the police. Somebody is responsible and somebody has to be made responsible.

Not working towards that is telling the people to just accept that members of the police are above the law and citizens should just bow down. That's what I call a police state.

And it doesn't help that more than proportionally black people are victims of the system.

 

[Revoltingest]

And it is not only in this case (but there are few cases so clear) that victims and potential victims of police misconduct are, imo, justified in their rage against the system.

Some disparate things are getting mixed together.
Justifiable rage at the system & particular cops doesn't justify...
1) Rioting, arson, looting, assault against innocent parties.
2) Shooting other cops who pose no immediate threat.
3) Prosecuting cops for doing what is standard practice
& legally authorized (albeit under dubious law).

Those acts don't address the underlying problem.
Nay, they even exacerbate it with polarization, distraction,
& energizing the brute-force-law-&-order types.

The guilty parties are the legislators who write such laws,
the judges who too easily grant such warrants, & the
police management who don't adequately supervise
execution of the warrants.
I'd sooner prosecute them, than the cops who did
what they were trained & ordered to do.

There are no accidents when people are shot by the police. Somebody is responsible and somebody has to be made responsible.

This case is an example of an accidental death. Cops were
shooting it out with Walker, & didn't intend Taylor's death.

Btw, I support Walker's response to a break-in by armed
assailants. Their being cops didn't compromise his right
to use of deadly force in self defense.

Not working towards that is telling the people to just accept that members of the police are above the law and citizens should just bow down. That's what I call a police state.

FYI, I oppose a police state. I say that we have too much
of one already, even if all racism were eliminated from it.

And it doesn't help that more than proportionally black people are victims of the system.

This is why the protests are happening. While even more whites
are such victims, this never mattered much to the populace.
Thus, I find BLM to be potentially very useful to effect positive change.

 

[Tambourine]

Read the thread.
I already addressed the war crimes analogy's inapplicability.

It has been long established that it is literally illegal for soldiers to follow illegal orders. That Americans of all people would think that this should not apply in our civilian lives as well is equal parts shocking and saddening to me.

 

[Heyo]

The guilty parties are the legislators who write such laws,
the judges who too easily grant such warrants, & the
police management who don't adequately supervise
execution of the warrants.
I'd sooner prosecute them, than the cops who did
what they were trained & ordered to do.

I'd like to have an open investigation and a trial with all possible culprits present and judge and jury deciding who walks and who goes to prison.
And I think that a dead person by police forces should always lead to a trial.

This case is an example of an accidental death. Cops were
shooting it out with Walker, & didn't intend Taylor's death.

Maybe they didn't intend it but they were also unable to prevent it. Intention, reckless endangerment or bumbling idiocy, that's for the judge to decide.

 

[tytlyf]

Everyone understands it was a no-knock warrant and there was no knock because that defeats the purpose of goin the extra mile to get a "no-knock" warrant.
What people have a problem with is cops thinking they don't have to follow protocols when serving whatever warrant it may be.
Is it normal for police to disregard protocols serving a warrant because they know they can get away with it?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Everyone understands it was a no-knock warrant and there was no knock because that defeats the purpose of goin the extra mile to get a "no-knock" warrant.
What people have a problem with is cops thinking they don't have to follow protocols when serving whatever warrant it may be.
Is it normal for police to disregard protocols serving a warrant because they know they can get away with it?

Actually, the warrant was changed to a 'knock and announce' warrant, meaning that the officers were required to knock and clearly announce themselves.

Twelve witnesses interviewed say that the officers knocked but did not announce themselves, with only one witness claiming that they did (once). (SOURCE: Kentucky's AG says witness heard officers ID themselves in Breonna Taylor raid, but attorneys claim 12 others said otherwise) The officers claimed that they did announce, but there is no evidence of this because they did not have their body cameras on.

The question then is which witnesses were actually called to testify to the grand jury. On the weight of the evidence, this is a very clear case of police acting recklessly and without proper protocol, leading to the death of an entirely innocent person.

 

[Revoltingest]

It has been long established that it is literally illegal for soldiers to follow illegal orders. That Americans of all people would think that this should not apply in our civilian lives as well is equal parts shocking and saddening to me.

Don't be sad, little one.
Warrants are legal authorizations.
So arguing that they're illegal makes no sense.
It's necessary to change the law.