The Great Deception of Christianity - Departing the Faith (the Word)

[3rdAngel]

Hebrews, was written to Jews who wanted to follow the Messiah (which is Jesus Christ). Why would we ask so called 'Jews' (modern) who reject their Messiah, and even placed a curse upon Daniel's time prophecies?

Thanks for replying, I did not think it was worth replying to to be honest as the non believing JEWS rejected their own Messiah. How that question is relevant to anything here is beyond me

 

[sooda]

Nonsense. I have only provided my own study of the scriptures here and I believe I have let the scriptures interpret themselves as no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Your not able to deny this or are you able to show what has been shared here is not true except to provide your own words and opinions that I believe and have shown why are not biblical. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

There are no serious scholars who think Daniel is prophecy or dispute that it was written about Antiochus IV and the Maccabean Revolt. The Jews celebrate Hannukah because they rededicated the Temple after Antiochus defiled it with the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus knew it.. That's why he referenced it.

 

[sooda]

Thanks for replying, I did not think it was worth replying to to be honest as the non believing JEWS rejected their own Messiah. How that question is relevant to anything here is beyond me

@IndigoChild5559 @Ian Jeffreys

The Messiah expected by the Jews was an anointed warrior king who would defeat the Romans. Jesus was NOT that.. How can you dispute ALL the teachings of the OT? How can you dismiss their beliefs?

 

[coconut theology]

There are no serious scholars ...

No true scotsman? Aye laddie, there be no true scotsman here.

 

[sooda]

No true scotsman? Aye laddie, there be no true scotsman here.

Well, I would invite you to study Daniel without Scofield.

 

[coconut theology]

@IndigoChild5559 @Ian Jeffreys

The Messiah expected by the Jews was an anointed warrior king who would defeat the Romans. Jesus was NOT that.. How can you dispute ALL the teachings of the OT? How can you dismiss their beliefs?

Jesus said so, that the Jews had confused the second/third advents with the first:

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

See Psalms 22.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Zec_13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

etc.

 

[coconut theology]

Well, I would invite you to study Daniel without Scofield.

You make a faulty assumption, which is very much in error. I do not study "with" Scofield, nor have I read any of his material.

 

[sooda]

You make a faulty assumption, which is very much in error. I do not study "with" Scofield, nor have I read any of his material.

You may not have studied him directly, but if you are a Protestant evangelical, you have been influenced by him. I could make the connection for you if you revealed the name of your church.

 

[sooda]

Jesus said so, that the Jews had confused the second/third advents with the first:

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

See Psalms 22.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Zec_13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

etc.

Most of the poetry of Psalms was taken from much older poems of the Ugaritic texts. Isaiah is writing about "Israel" not Jesus.. Why would Isaiah suddenly change the narrative? He didn't.

 

[coconut theology]

Most of the poetry of Psalms was taken from much older poems of the Ugaritic texts. Isaiah is writing about "Israel" not Jesus.. Why would Isaiah suddenly change the narrative? He didn't.

You really ought to change your "religion" status to something else, other than what it is at present.

 

[coconut theology]

You may not have studied him directly, but if you are a Protestant evangelical, you have been influenced by him. I could make the connection for you if you revealed the name of your church.

Scofield teaches Jesuit futurism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

 

[3rdAngel]

There are no serious scholars who think Daniel is prophecy or dispute that it was written about Antiochus IV and the Maccabean Revolt. The Jews celebrate Hannukah because they rededicated the Temple after Antiochus defiled it with the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus knew it.. That's why he referenced it.

Nonsense. I believe you quoting you does not make it true. I also believe you have already been shown in this thread and elsewhere why your application and those of the Roman Catholic Church's and false protestant views on preterism or futurism is not biblical in regards to Antiochus IV.

Than when shown from the scriptures in the very words of JESUS after Antiochus IV died around 170 years earlier that JESUS applies the abomination of desolation to a future event here...

MATTHEW 24:15 When ye (disciples future tense) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

MARK 13:14 But when ye (disciples future tense) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let him that readeth understand, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains.

JESUS is stating the events of the abomination of desolation are future events not past. This buries your application and interpretation of the scriptures in relation to Antiochus IV as he has already been dead 170 years and JESUS is applying it's application to the future not the past.

Not only does Antiochus not fit the scripture signs of Daniel 7 and 8, Antiochus died way before JESUS time and JESUS is talking to the disciples saying the Abomination of desolation was yet future.

Can you see your error here? There is no getting around this Soda. You are simply wrong IMO

 

[74x12]

What? You quoting CARM does not supersede me quoting scripture. Replacement theology is only a term used by those who do not believe the scriptures IMO. Did you want to show in any of the scriptures provided from the linked posts below why you believe what I have shared with you is not true and if it is true why do you not believe it?

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

Everything provided here is God's Word not mine. What is it you do not believe?
The name "ISRAEL" is only a name given by God to represent all those who claim to believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart through faith to love. *HEBREWS 8:10-12

Yes the accusation of "replacement theology" is ridiculous most of the time.

God said "Israel is my firstborn Son" So people who think Jesus is firstborn have a problem ... There can't be two firstborn Sons of God.

Jesus is the real true Israel of God.

Earthly Israel has a head: Jacob. He's the temporal ...

But eternal Israel has another head. Jesus Christ. He rose from the dead giving immortality. That's how come He is firstborn and the true Israel of God. The one that lasts forever.

When Jacob is resurrected he will be part of the body of Christ. Not the head. He'll be the body and Jesus will be the head. Jesus is the real Israel and the Life.

 

[3rdAngel]

Your understanding of Daniel and Revelation is tainted by Scofield. Take them as they are without embellishment.

Not at all. You are making assumtions that are not true. I have only provided my own study of the scriptures here and I believe I have let the scriptures interpret themselves as no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Your not able to deny this or are you able to show what has been shared here is not true except to provide your own words and opinions that I believe and have shown why are not biblical. I have not followed Scofield and do not know what he teaches as I have prayerfully studied the scriptures by faith in God's promises for myself *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 8:31-32.

 

[sooda]

Nonsense. I believe you quoting you does not make it true. I also believe you have already been shown in this thread and elsewhere why your application and those of the Roman Catholic Church's and false protestant views on preterism or futurism is not biblical in regards to Antiochus IV.

Than when shown from the scriptures in the very words of JESUS after Antiochus IV died around 170 years earlier that JESUS applies the abomination of desolation to a future event here...

MATTHEW 24:15 When ye (disciples future tense) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

MARK 13:14 But when ye (disciples future tense) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let him that readeth understand, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains.

JESUS is stating the events of the abomination of desolation are future events not past. This buries your application and interpretation of the scriptures in relation to Antiochus IV as he has already been dead 170 years and JESUS is applying it's application to the future not the past.

Not only does Antiochus not fit the scripture signs of Daniel 7 and 8, Antiochus died way before JESUS time and JESUS is talking to the disciples saying the Abomination of desolation was yet future.

Can you see your error here? There is no getting around this Soda. You are simply wrong IMO

@ Ian Jeffreys

Most mainline Protestants didn't subscribe to futurism nor were they preoccupied with the end times until the Scofield heresy came along.

The Abomination of Desolation was when Antiochus IV defiled the Temple.. Jesus knew of it and he knew the reason for Hannukah.

 

[3rdAngel]

@ Ian Jeffreys
The Abomination of Desolation was when Antiochus IV defiled the Temple.. .

Not according to JESUS......

MATTHEW 24:15 When ye (disciples future tense) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

MARK 13:14 But when ye (disciples future tense) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let him that readeth understand, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains.

JESUS is stating the events of the abomination of desolation are future events not past. This buries your application and interpretation of the scriptures in relation to Antiochus IV as he has already been dead 170 years and JESUS is applying it's application to the future not the past.

Not only does Antiochus not fit the scripture signs of Daniel 7 and 8, Antiochus died way before JESUS time and JESUS is talking to the disciples saying the Abomination of desolation was yet future.

There is no getting around this Soda. You are simply wrong IMO

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@IndigoChild5559 @Ian Jeffreys

The Messiah expected by the Jews was an anointed warrior king who would defeat the Romans. Jesus was NOT that.. How can you dispute ALL the teachings of the OT? How can you dismiss their beliefs?

Unfortunately this is what happens for practically all Christians. They are immersed in the Christian doctrines and Pauline teachings long before they actually visit the Tanakh. These teachings are repeated over and over to them, until their minds are saturated the core. By the time they get around to actually studying the Tanakh, they are quite incapable of seeing anything other than through the lens of Christian teaching -- even their scholars, who you might hope would do better, but no. It is a simple lesson in the strength that indoctrination has over objectivity.

 

[3rdAngel]

Unfortunately this is what happens for practically all Christians. They are immersed in the Christian doctrines and Pauline teachings long before they actually visit the Tanakh. These teachings are repeated over and over to them, until their minds are saturated the core. By the time they get around to actually studying the Tanakh, they are quite incapable of seeing anything other than through the lens of Christian teaching -- even their scholars, who you might hope would do better, but no. It is a simple lesson in the strength that indoctrination has over objectivity.

For me I believe what you have written here is nothing more than a distraction to truth. Those who accept the Messiah believe and follow all the scriptures of Moses, the prophets, JESUS and the Apostles of the old and new testament.

We believe that both the old testament scriptures and the new testament scriptures are the two great witnesses that point to Jesus as the Messiah. The shadows of the old are revealed in the new. The Old testament scriptures point forward to the Messiah while the new testament scripture point back to the Messiah.

All of God's people are saved in the same way although the process was different. Those before the Messiah looked forward to the promises of God's Word through faith and those who live after look back. I believe that many however who were given the oracles of God did not know that the very Messiah they were claiming to wait for was the very one they crucified.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Unfortunately this is what happens for practically all Christians. They are immersed in the Christian doctrines and Pauline teachings long before they actually visit the Tanakh. These teachings are repeated over and over to them, until their minds are saturated the core. By the time they get around to actually studying the Tanakh, they are quite incapable of seeing anything other than through the lens of Christian teaching -- even their scholars, who you might hope would do better, but no. It is a simple lesson in the strength that indoctrination has over objectivity.

Isn't the internet great. You can get your religion explained to you along with being told you don't really understand it.

 

[sooda]

Scofield teaches Jesuit futurism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Scroll down on your link and note which churches promote futurism.. You haven't read your link, have you.