InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Then How do you explain this saying of Jesus:
"The Father is greater than I?"
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The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World
- Thread starter al-amiyr
- Start date
"The Father is greater than I?"
Gui10
Active Member
This is sad because you call someone names of such greatness because you fear, in your ignorance, that you will be punished. I know you disagree. My comment is pointless, as you will not change your belief. I am although comforted, because all religions are falling at this present time, it is only a question of time before humanity can actually begin its progress. Sorry for being so radical. And about your topic, I do not doubt the abilities of Muhammad, but I doubt his divinity.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
could you explain the enlarged text a bit better? I do not get what you are saying here.thanks
I am just saying, different Moslems, may accept that Hadith, and some may not, the same as some Christian may accept Jesus as God, and some may not.
Unitarian Universalists (UUs)They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, but they are Christians.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Yeah 2 out of every three people believe in God (actually it is higher) and we are falling apart. Your claims above are unknown to you even if true and so stating them anyway is intellectually dishonest. The weird thing is why I expect them to be in the first place. I dissagree with Muhammad claims as well.
Lady B
noob
[QUOTEThe above, is the same claim of Bible, that God created everything for Jesus. By that is meant, ALL Messengers of God.
[/quote]
really? read Collossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Do you see this is for all messnegers? really how do you even get that all messengers were given God-status (sinless,creation designed for them) out of Bible scripture?
As for bahai scriptures I would ask you not to prove a point in the bible using your own bahai writings. I do not except Bahala to be a prophet of God, perhaps you can prove that in another thread at another time.
[/quote]
really? read Collossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Do you see this is for all messnegers? really how do you even get that all messengers were given God-status (sinless,creation designed for them) out of Bible scripture?
As for bahai scriptures I would ask you not to prove a point in the bible using your own bahai writings. I do not except Bahala to be a prophet of God, perhaps you can prove that in another thread at another time.
Lady B
noob
No true Christian , Biblical Christian believes that Jesus is not God, the son of God and part of God. Hence the word Christian.:areyoucra
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, I see that ALL Messengers as being the same, and can be discribe as above, but it is difficault concept. If you can be please patience, I will try to show its meaning gradually. Thanks.
I already know you do not believe in Baha'u'llah
What are you talking about?As to your request, I use them, you can show me by discussion whenever they are not saying the same thing as the Bible, by quoting a verse from the Bible to prove your point.
Sorry, but part of Baha'i Scriptures are revealed to correct the misunderstandings of bible and Quran.
This is like if a Jew asks you, do not use Torah, because this was originally our Book and we know better than Christians, and we do not believe Jesus was true Prophet and the Messiah.
-Peace
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I know this is what the mainstream Christians say about UUs. So, I let you guys handle it among yourself!
But the way Bible, defines a Christian, I would say, the one who follows the commandments of the Father!
Lady B
noob
Yes, I see that ALL Messengers as being the same, and can be discribe as above, but it is difficault concept. If you can be please patience, I will try to show its meaning gradually. Thanks.
I already know you do not believe in Baha'u'llah
As to your request, I use them, you can show me by discussion whenever they are not saying the same thing as the Bible, by quoting a verse from the Bible to prove your point.
Sorry, but part of Baha'i Scriptures are revealed to correct the misunderstandings of bible and Quran.
This is like if a Jew asks you, do not use Torah, because this was originally our Book and we know better than Christians, and we do not believe Jesus was true Prophet and the Messiah.
-Peace
You may use all the outside religions you like to make your points, But they will be counted as pointless to anyone who doesn't believe they are scripture, so for me it is a waste of time. As for your precep that God needed any new prophet to correct his old ones? rediculous. God's word is unchanging and he made no mistakes, therfore no need for corrections. If you rebutt this with man made the mistakes not God, not that I agree God's word has changed even from man made mistakes,or tanslational errors but men would need to Go back to the original manuscripts to be sure to be accurate and ohhhh we have done this! No need for prophet interventions or corrections.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Anyways, I hope you do not get upset with these arguments.
I am just saying, that such claims such as a Messenger is God Himslef, can be found in traditions of every Religion, and not only Christianity. Now, if most Christians conveniantly understood these words literally to mean that Jesus is God, then this is their understanding.
But other parts of the Scriptures of these religions, including Bible, has other verses, that can be interpreted, the Messenger is not God, but has a command from God.
There must be a logical way to reconcile these verses, that appear contradictory with each other within the same Faith.
The Baha'i Scriptures has introduced a term, known as Manifestations of God. As regards to Trinity, this is Baha'i view (and you are more than welcome to discuss):
Question.What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man* is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection. Answer.The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrorsone the Christ and one the Holy Spiritthat is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Realitythat is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributesbecame visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multipliedfor the Sun is onebut it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. "The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Realitythat is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributesbecame visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multipliedfor the Sun is onebut it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I did not say God changes His words or made mistakes. I said Bible is not corrupted, but the intepretations of it are not correct in my view.
I did not ask you to believe, they are scriptures. You can see them as the arguments I am giving you, and you can argue with them as you do with me. I didn't ask you to simply believe in them.
(I really don't care, you believ them or not)
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
For me, it is important to have a broad view of All religions, then choose the one makes sense. Otherwise, I didn't have to study Quran and Bible extensively.
Baha'i faith has its own 200 volumes of Scriptures.
Gui10
Active Member
It use to be 3 out of 3.
Lady B
noob
This is what you said.
this is what I say:You may use all the outside religions you like to make your points, But they will be counted as pointless to anyone who doesn't believe they are scripture, so for me it is a waste of time. As for your precep that God needed any new prophet to correct his old ones? rediculous. God's word is unchanging and he made no mistakes, therfore no need for corrections. If you rebutt this with man made the mistakes not God, not that I agree God's word has changed even from man made mistakes,or tanslational errors but men would need to Go back to the original manuscripts to be sure to be accurate and ohhhh we have done this! No need for prophet interventions or corrections.
Lady B
noob
For me, it is important to have a broad view of All religions, then choose the one makes sense. Otherwise, I didn't have to study Quran and Bible extensively.
Baha'i faith has its own 200 volumes of Scriptures.
This is not how I chose my religion.
To simplify my point, you said " part of Baha'i Scriptures are revealed to correct the misunderstandings of bible and Quran "
God made no misunderstandings and would not need to send someone to correct them. God's word is what it is, He didn't require men to hire translators to understand it, so he would hold us acountable for misintrepreting it, not himself. can u imagine God deciding one day..." Oh dear, these pesky humans got me all wrong, my bad, let me go fix that with another yet another prophet" ? This is not the God I know, is it yours?
Lady B
noob
I promise to not get upset
You did not support your claim that it is in my Bible at all. using Moses's conversation with God about how he is to let God's own words speak to the Pharoh and stop worrying about how eloquent of speech he is, is not making your point that messengers were God. try again please without twisting scripture, show me where any prophet claimed he was God.
Lady B
noob
Ok let me try to help you understand.
The only reason I would use the Bible to refute Bahai claims is Bahai believes the Bible is the word of God.
The same with Islam for the most part. Therefore it can be admitted into evidence, so to speak.
Let me make an analogy. A man is convicted of murder, He has his defense attorney that says " hey prove that he murdered anyone"
The prosecutor then pulls out a book called " proof that Johnny killed sally" author anonymous .Inside the book it says" Johnny did it cuz I saw it"
Did that book convict Johnny? No why? Because No one but the prosecutor believes that book is true, it cannot be proven by any logical means so it is dismissed and Johnny goes free.
You cannot bring in a debate a book or religion both sides don't agree in to counteract a religion's claims. Does that make sense? What does the words of Bahailah mean to me? Nothing. What does the bible mean to you? Something. So let us stick to the materials we both agree in shall we?
I am not disrespecting your Bahai writings, In fact I would like to learn more of your religion at a later time. For now though you are making claims that My Bible says and there is no place for Bahai materials to prove or disprove this claim. Why? Because I do not place any importance in them as any authority over my scriptures.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I am sorry, but the picture your are giving for His Holiness Jesus Christ is not Biblical.
You are introducing Him, as a Sarcastic person. This is not true. He was a patient and kind Lord. He did not have to be sarcastic to anyone. He came to attract people's heart, not be sarcastic.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
So God can't in fact do anything. He instead is limited to what Bahalluah said he could and could not do. That is not my God. Setting limits on an omnipotent God is contradictory.
What in the world is this supposed to mean?
Once again not the Biblical God. Mine is omnipotent.
Since he did not have access, except to a tiny sliver of reality in the few years he existed his comments on the issues involving eternity are unjustified besides having no clear meaning.
Once again a limited God. God is restricted to only creating imperfect creatures. Sounds like a bad God. Now I know that this is not my God. My God created a perfect universe and called it very good. That perfect universe contained freewill which (missused)changed it into imperfection. None of this matters anyway because neither Jesus nor the Holy spirit were created and therefore not creatures.
No it would instead look exactly like what Jesus did. Perfect but an identifiable example. Once again this God described here is limited. Mine is not. Also it is assuming that God can't appear in reality which also implies the Burning Bush, his encounter with Jacob, his speaking to Adam and other events are not true as well. There is simply no end to what Baha'i must rewrite to make it work. It would have been far less trouble to just write a whole new Baha'i bible version than all this missinterpretation and bad exegesis.
How would he know since God has never according to him appeared in reality?.
How does he know he resembles a mirror?
How can any but a perfect and divine being be a perfect and devine reflection. Jesus did not say he was a mirror he said he and the father are one.
Reflections have no power because they are not real. Jesus had power, a seperate but subordinate will (see the anguish in the garden), and a seperate identity.
Relections do not die on crosses, raise the dead, and forgive sin.
That meant that he was in fact of the same nature as the father. One nature two roles.
He did things that a vision alone never could.
I can't do this anymore. This sounds like a very peotic and flowery way to say something that can't be possible. Jesus was no reflection. He had real form and distinct will. He was in fact a seperate person in every way except in common divine essence or nature. In fact he even existed long before a reflection had any purpose. He was the one who everything was created through, for, and by. That occured before man existed to comprehend any reflection. Nice poetry (really). Terrible theology (really).
Christianity does not claim that Baha'i scripture may speak on this issue however Bahaa'i does say the Bible can. No Christian is obligated to believe anything from Baha'i, but it appears Baha'i is required to believe what the Bible says. No wonder so much confusion and missinterpretation. Investigate truth, I will leave you alone the rest of the weekend so have a good one. Your dedication even if not your Biblical scholarship is impressive.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Not exactly,
New Living Translation (©2007)
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.
New International Version (©1984)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
And that was to Hebrew priests. That not so much sarcastic scorchingly damning.