The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok let me try to help you understand.
The only reason I would use the Bible to refute Bahai claims is Bahai believes the Bible is the word of God.
The same with Islam for the most part. Therefore it can be admitted into evidence, so to speak.
Let me make an analogy. A man is convicted of murder, He has his defense attorney that says " hey prove that he murdered anyone"
The prosecutor then pulls out a book called " proof that Johnny killed sally" author anonymous .Inside the book it says" Johnny did it cuz I saw it"
Did that book convict Johnny? No why? Because No one but the prosecutor believes that book is true, it cannot be proven by any logical means so it is dismissed and Johnny goes free.
You cannot bring in a debate a book or religion both sides don't agree in to counteract a religion's claims. Does that make sense? What does the words of Bahailah mean to me? Nothing. What does the bible mean to you? Something. So let us stick to the materials we both agree in shall we?

I am not disrespecting your Bahai writings, In fact I would like to learn more of your religion at a later time. For now though you are making claims that My Bible says and there is no place for Bahai materials to prove or disprove this claim. Why? Because I do not place any importance in them as any authority over my scriptures.

Well, this is why I have said, consider and assume the quote that I am giving you are my personal arguments, but not as a revealed scriptures. will you?
If any part of them, you believe is not Biblical, just quote a verse from Bible to refute. Can you?
Offcourse, I can also type the same arguments in my own words. But that takes too much time, and I am sometimes too busy to have the time
Anyhow, the quotes I gave, are refering to the Bible verses if you see them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not exactly,

New Living Translation (©2007)
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.
New International Version (©1984)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

And that was to Hebrew priests. That not so much sarcastic scorchingly damning.

These are not sarcastic. These are frankly speaking. There is a difference.
The arguments that LadyB is giving is that, in that verse Jesus sarcastically speaking, and telling the man, He is God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One? ​

Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

So God can't in fact do anything. He instead is limited to what Bahalluah said he could and could not do. That is not my God. Setting limits on an omnipotent God is contradictory.​

Your logic here is both fallacy and not consistant with Old Testament.
Your reasoning is like, saying, can God create a heavy stone that He cannot lift?
Also, the God discribed in old testament has no parts, or equal.

The quote from Abdulbaha is clear.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality.

What in the world is this supposed to mean? ​

The answer to you question is a paragraph above it. When we use the numbers, these are only applicable to count matterialistic things. 1 bread, 2 cars,..etc.
The divine reality is not a matter or worldy thing to be counted with numbers to claim He is one or three.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible.

Once again not the Biblical God. Mine is omnipotent.​

I have already replied about the problem with your reasoning. See above please.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.​

Since he did not have access, except to a tiny sliver of reality in the few years he existed his comments on the issues involving eternity are unjustified besides having no clear meaning.​

Yes, He had, and His title is the Mystery of God. His knowledge is given by Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections.

Once again a limited God. God is restricted to only creating imperfect creatures. Sounds like a bad God. Now I know that this is not my God. My God created a perfect universe and called it very good. That perfect universe contained freewill which (missused)changed it into imperfection. None of this matters anyway because neither Jesus nor the Holy spirit were created and therefore not creatures.

The above quote is also Biblical. Even as you claim only God is perfect and everyone is a sinner.
You are playing a fallacy here.

 

[1robin]

Yes, He had, and His title is the Mystery of God. His knowledge is given by Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ.

I am not required to buy that. I do not see a single compelling reason to even think it possible. As a matter of fact that is your claim and so the burden of proof is on you. If you can prove he fed the five thousand with real food (cheap shot), raised the dead (another one), or is not currently dead and buried I will consider it. Since you can not do so that perfectly explains why you must therefore make it so Jesus did not either by whatever means necessary. Actually I am interested in any way no matter how bad you would rely on to prove a man that spent most of his adult life in jail was indeed aware of anything divine or beyond what historical books could teach. But for now I am gone. Shalom.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance...

No it would instead look exactly like what Jesus did. Perfect but an identifiable example. Once again this God described here is limited. Mine is not. Also it is assuming that God can't appear in reality which also implies the Burning Bush, his encounter with Jacob, his speaking to Adam and other events are not true as well. There is simply no end to what Baha'i must rewrite to make it work. It would have been far less trouble to just write a whole new Baha'i bible version than all this missinterpretation and bad exegesis. ​

What the Christian Leaders has done is, on one hand conveniantly they cling to the verses of Bible, which is appealing to them, as they appear as if Jesus is God. On the other hand they closed their eyes and denying all those verses of Bible which says Jesus is a prophet, and only said what God asked Him to say. Part of the Book they like Part of the Book they deny.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am not required to buy that. I do not see a single compelling reason to even think it possible. As a matter of fact that is your claim and so the burden of proof is on you. If you can prove he fed the five thousand with real food (cheap shot), raised the dead (another one), or is not currently dead and buried I will consider it. Since you can not do so that perfectly explains why you must therefore make it so Jesus did not either by whatever means necessary. Actually I am interested in any way no matter how bad you would rely on to prove a man that spent most of his adult life in jail was indeed aware of anything divine or beyond what historical books could teach. But for now I am gone. Shalom.

I am not asking you to buy it.

What you ignored, is that I asked, to assume these quotes are my own arguments and not divine scriptures. But you are the one who started to ask questions, how does He know. Clear?

Please wait, untill I finish all my replies.

 

[1robin]

I am not asking you to buy it.

What you ignored, is that I asked, to assume these quotes are my own arguments and not divine scriptures. But you are the one who started to ask questions, how does He know. Clear?

Please wait, untill I finish all my replies.

Why would you consider a claim I made that the flying unicycle is actually God. That is not an argument or a claim that has any meaning to you. It is just an unjustified opinion. That is what yours was to Christians. Claims without justifications are just opinions that have no explanitory power and so do not belong in a debate. I do not always supply justification but am always willing or I try to not make the claim in the first place.

 

[1robin]

The answer to you question is a paragraph above it. When we use the numbers, these are only applicable to count matterialistic things. 1 bread, 2 cars,..etc.
The divine reality is not a matter or worldy thing to be counted with numbers to claim He is one or three.

I guess two ghosts, two thoughts, two opinions, two wishes, or two dreams is not acceptable in Baha'i. Now everyday reality must be reinterpreted in order to maintain the religion. Man I would have given up on that long ago.

 

[1robin]

Your logic here is both fallacy and not consistant with Old Testament.
Your reasoning is like, saying, can God create a heavy stone that He cannot lift?
Also, the God discribed in old testament has no parts, or equal.

The quote from Abdulbaha is clear.

God created perfect creatures that later fell when Adam sinned. Very very simple. Your heavy rock, round squares, and true lies are not things. They do not and can't exist, they are nothing (no thing). God can't create things that are not things and he can't exist outside existance because that does not exist to exist in. Very simple logic. He can become a man. Especially a perfect man. Very simple logic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man* is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections

How does he know he resembles a mirror? ​

Firstly, please remember, the Bible discribes Jesus as a Perfect Image of God.
So, in this analogy, the Image of God has appeared in the Mirror, who is Jesus. This Mirror, due to its spiritual perfections, has the ability to reflet the Will, Words and Attributes of God.
Now, as your question, How does Baha'u'llah know all these? Because God has created another perfect Mirror, that can also reflect the attributes, Words, and Image of God. This new Mirror, is Baha'u'llah. Please do not put limits on the ability of My God. He can create as many Images He wants.

 

[Lady B]

Firstly, please remember, the Bible discribes Jesus as a Perfect Image of God.
So, in this analogy, the Image of God has appeared in the Mirror, who is Jesus. This Mirror, due to its spiritual perfections, has the ability to reflet the Will, Words and Attributes of God.
Now, as your question, How does Baha'u'llah know all these? Because God has created another perfect Mirror, that can also reflect the attributes, Words, and Image of God. This new Mirror, is Baha'u'llah. Please do not put limits on the ability of My God. He can create as many Images He wants.

In all due respect: Your just not getting it
I will accept you use your Bahai writings as your opinions, just not to debate The Bible scriptures. If we are debating your Bahai texts and I pull in a religion you do not believe in and say "well this is my opinion", did I prove anything to you? Did I support my claims at all? No way. So what Bahala says about Christ or prophets or messengers has no authority here at all, The same as your opinion or my opinion has no authority here or in any debate regarding specific Biblical doctrines. The reason you feel it does is because you yourself and your religion believe the Bible and the writings of Bahala are both equally the word of God. We do not agree at all in this . It is just that simple.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In all due respect: Your just not getting it
I will accept you use your Bahai writings as your opinions, just not to debate The Bible scriptures. If we are debating your Bahai texts and I pull in a religion you do not believe in and say "well this is my opinion", did I prove anything to you? Did I support my claims at all? No way. So what Bahala says about Christ or prophets or messengers has no authority here at all, The same as your opinion or my opinion has no authority here or in any debate regarding specific Biblical doctrines. The reason you feel it does is because you yourself and your religion believe the Bible and the writings of Bahala are both equally the word of God. We do not agree at all in this . It is just that simple.

Are you saying, the Bible does not say Jesus is the perfect Image of God? I have just said what the Bible says:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the

minds of them which believe not, lest the light of
the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image​

of God, should shine unto them." 4:4 2 Corinthians

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection. ​

How can any but a perfect and divine being be a perfect and devine reflection. Jesus did not say he was a mirror he said he and the father are one. ​

See above. Bible says, Jesus is an image of God. Image is created when there is a reflection of Light. In this case, that Light is God. Bible says, He is Light.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly. ​

Reflections have no power because they are not real. Jesus had power, a seperate but subordinate will (see the anguish in the garden), and a seperate identity.

​

Yes, reflections have power according to Bible. See above for the quote from the Bible, describing Jesus as the Image of God, who reflect the light to the Blind!
​

 

[Lady B]

Yes, reflections have power according to Bible. See above for the quote from the Bible, describing Jesus as the Image of God, who reflect the light to the Blind!

So where are you going with this exactly?

 

[mestupid]

The starter of this topic seems to have gone by the wayside, either for lack of intellect or ability, or some combination of both. Come back and defend your belief. Or at least admit defeat.