The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[Lady B]

Yes, He did.

So If the Bahai religion believes in Christs literal crucifiction, and Islam does not( contradiction) Also Islam claims Mohammad to be the final prophet (contradiction) How in the world can Bahai claim Islam as part of their faith? The one clearly disables the other in important doctrines, don't you think?

Take your time, I realize you have many questions to answer now that this can has been opened.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When did Mohammed pbuh say that he is all the prophets ?

This concept is established within the traditions of Muhammad, and is confirmed in the Book of Certitude revealed by Baha'u'llah.

There is Hadith, regarding the Tafseer of the verse 4:69:

"Anas ibn Malik said, one day the Messenger of God, peace be upon him, offered his morning prayer and ascended the pulpit. His face was resplendent as the full moon. We asked the Messenger of God to interpret the verse of the Qur'an: "... they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favor of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous." [4:69] He said, By the term "Prophets" I am meant, by the term "saints" Ali ibn Abi Talib is meant, by "martyrs" my uncle Hamzah is meant and the "righteous" are my daughter Fatimah and her two sons Hasan and Husayn." [Bihar'ul-Anwar vol. 7 by Majlesi, cited from Riyaz ul Janan by Fazl'u'llah ibn Mahmood al-Faresi]

Moreover,

It is recorded of Muhammad:

"I and Ali Bin Abi Talib both were a single light in the presence of Allah 14,000 years before the creation of Adam. When Allah created Adam, he deposited that light in Adam's loins. We remained together as one light until we separated in Abu'l-Muttalib's loins. Then I was endowed with Prophethood and Ali with the caliphate."

Reference:
Ninth Session, Part 4

In our view, this means, that All the Prophets are One spirit, who appear from Age to Age, which is what Baha'u'llah refers to in Iqan (All of them are the same Spirit). It's clear that, if this is interpreted literally, Muhammad did not exist before Adam.



When Prophet Muhammad was asked: "When did you become a Prophet?" he replied; "I was a Prophet when Adam was between the water and the mud -before he came into existence." (2) In the Sufi perception, another concept that symbolizes this Haqiqat-i Muhammadiyya", which encompasses all the prophets from the first prophet, Adam to the final prophet, Muhammad, is the concept of Nur-i Muhammadi. It is known that Prophet Muhammad is described in the Holy Quran (Al-Ahzab 33:46) as a "lamp that gives light". In another verse, it is conveyed to us that Prophet Muhammad is a "light from Allah" (Al-Maida 5:15). (3)

2. For this form of the hadith, see: Ibn Arabi, Futûhât, I, 243; Abu Bakr Sirajaddin, (Martin Lings) expresses that the other world existed before and after the time in its own unity and with all its traditional ranks. This understanding is expressed with the following hadith of Prophet Muhammad which refers to the creation of the body of Adam at the beginning of time and His own prophethood in the other world: “I was a Prophet when Adam was between the water and the mud”

References:
Muhammad: The First and the Last Prophet - Nuran Döner - Muhammad (pbuh) - Prophet of Islam


Moreover Muhammad said: "I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari


All these above traditions, signify, that, Muhammad has said, in previous ages, He existed, and equating Himslef to be previous prophets, and He is a Manifestation of God.
This is also confirmed by the verses of Quran:

“No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!” Qur’án 2:285
The above means, all Messengers of God, in essence are the same.


"They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but one.”† Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad is our first, Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad our last, Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad our all.”"
Baha'u'llah, Book of certitude


† See Qur’án 54:50.

 

[Lady B]

OK, let me get this straight please bare with me.....
Bahala is Christ, Mohamad was Christ and all prophets before were Christ, oh and Christ was Christ?
Ok let me first clarify something ok? tell me please what scriptures or writings from which religions the Bahai religion holds as the word of God. I ask because now you mention Buddha, which holds to no God. This is important for you to clarify if you want me to understand your religion. If you do not have this intent, then so be it.

Never mind answering this post, I found What You believe, care to confirm?


The Manifestations of God
Baha'is believe in certain Major Prophets they refer to as "Manifestations of God". They include:
*Adam
*Noah
*Abraham
*Moses
*Krishna
*Zoroaster
*Buddha
*Jesus
*Muhammed
*The Bab
*Baha'u'llah
Baha'is believe that in one sense all of these Manifestation of God are equal, but in another sense they have various ranks or stations. All of them had unique missions to perform on earth. Baha'u'llah~Our Father in Heaven Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is our "Heavenly Father". He is God the Father. Baha'is do not believe that the Essence of God can incarnate. However, Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of the "Father"; just as Yeh'o'shua (Jesus' true name) was the Manifestation of the "Son". The relationship of the Messengers of God with the Son (Jesus) and the Father (Baha'u'llah) is explained in Jesus' Parable of the Lord of the Vineyard in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12.


I will wait your confirmation before continuing, In summary Bahai's Believe that Bahahula was not manifested as the son,such as all other prophets but manifested as the father right?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

OK, let me get this straight please bare with me.....
Bahala is Christ, Mohamad was Christ and all prophets before were Christ, oh and Christ was Christ?
Ok let me first clarify something ok? tell me please what scriptures or writings from which religions the Bahai religion holds as the word of God. I ask because now you mention Buddha, which holds to no God. This is important for you to clarify if you want me to understand your religion. If you do not have this intent, then so be it.

As to your question regarding Buhdda, there are some sects that do believe in God.
Moreover, this is what Baha'i Scriptures say:

"The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images." Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions.

Baha'i Scriptures confirm All major religions, including Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zorrestrianism, Jewish Faith.

As to which writings we accept. Baha'i Writings, confirms Quran and Bible, new testament and old. Other Major religions, there is still truth is found in their scriptures, but are not considered completely original.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok now you have alot of work to do
please tell me why, (even if it is your own opinion) muslims were scared of the Bahai faith spreading, were there so many contradictions? and why if there is so much differences in the two religions would Bahai keep Islam as part of their belief system.
disclaimer:
THis is not part of our debate so i value your opinion, as a representative of the Bahai faith.

Well, I am not a representative of Baha'i Faith, officially. I am a member of the baha'i faith.

As to your question, for the same reason, the Jewish religious leader did not like Jesus to teach, or His Message be spread.
If you remember, It is in the Bible, that Jesus, refering to Himself said: "A prophet

is not honored in His Home Land"​

 

[Lady B]

"The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images."

This is not what I understand from Buddhism at all,His own writings declare there is no God such as in The bible. These are not others misconstruing his works. So are you telling me Buddha was a prophet of God? My God? The one you also claim? If he is a prophet , how could he change his mind? That is a first for any prophet I have seen. To once believe in God then Oppose God entirely hmmmmmm.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes he did !!!

What is your reference ??

The following hath been recorded concerning the merits of ‘Akká, and of the sea, and of
Aynu’l-Baqar (The Spring of the Cow) which is in ‘Akká:
1. ‘Abdu’l-‘Azíz, son of Abdu’-Salam, hath related unto us that the Prophet—may the
blessings of God and His salutations be upon him—hath said: “‘Akká is a city in Syria
to which God hath shown His special mercy.”
2. Ibn-i-Mas’ud—may God be pleased with him—hath stated: “The Prophet—may the
blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: ‘Of all shores the best
is the shore of Askelon, and ‘Akká is, verily, better than Askelon, and the merit of
‘Akká above that of Askelon and all other shores is as the merit of Mu˙ammad
above that of all other Prophets. I bring you tidings of a city betwixt two mountains
in Syria, in the middle of a meadow, which is called ‘Akká. Verily, he that entereth
therein, longing for it and eager to visit it, God will forgive his sins, both of the past
and of the future. And he that departeth from it, other than as a pilgrim, God will
not bless his departure. In it is a spring called the Spring of the Cow. Whoso drinketh a draught therefrom, God will fill his heart with light, and will protect him
from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.’”
3. Anas, son of Malik—may God be pleased with him—hath said: “The Apostle of God—
may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: ‘By the shore
of the sea is a city, suspended beneath the Throne, and named ‘Akká. He that
dwelleth therein, firm and expecting a reward from God—exalted be He—God will
write down for him, until the Day of Resurrection, the recompense of such as have
been patient, and have stood up, and knelt down, and prostrated themselves, before
Him.’”
4. And He—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: “I
announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God—exalted be He! It is called ‘Akká. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will
be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face
of the enemy, God will gather him with Khi∂r—peace be upon Him—and God will
protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.”
5. And He—may the blessings of God—exalted be He—and His salutations be upon
Him—hath said: “There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of ‘Akká are the
kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in ‘Akká is better than a thousand years elsewhere.”
6. The Apostle of God—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—
is reported to have said: “Blessed the man that hath visited ‘Akká, and blessed he that
hath visited the visitor of ‘Akká. Blessed the one that hath drunk from the Spring of
the Cow and washed in its waters, for the black-eyed damsels quaff the camphor in
Paradise, which hath come from the Spring of the Cow, and from the Spring of
Salvan (Siloam), and the Well of Zamzam. Well is it with him that hath drunk from
these springs, and washed in their waters, for God hath forbidden the fire of hell to
touch him and his body on the Day of Resurrection.”
7 The Prophet—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—is stated
to have said: “In ‘Akká are works of supererogation and acts which are beneficial,
which God vouchsafed specially unto whomsoever He pleaseth. And he that saith in
‘Akká: ‘Glorified be God, and praise be unto God, and there is none other God but
God, and most great is God, and there is no power nor strength except in God, the
Exalted, the Mighty,’ God will write down for him a thousand good deeds, and blot
out from him a thousand evil deeds, and will uplift him a thousand grades in
Paradise, and will forgive him his transgressions. And whoso saith in ‘Akká: ‘I beg
forgiveness of God,’ God will forgive all his trespasses. And he that remembereth
God in ‘Akká at morn and at eventide, in the night-season and at dawn, is better in
the sight of God than he who beareth swords, spears and arms in the path of God—
exalted be He!”

There is More.

References:

Akka Traditions (<i>hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

 

[Lady B]

Well, I am not a representative of Baha'i Faith, officially. I am a member of the baha'i faith.

As to your question, for the same reason, the Jewish religious leader did not like Jesus to teach, or His Message be spread.

If you remember, It is in the Bible, that Jesus, refering to Himself said: "A prophet

is not honored in His Home Land"​

true, however Christians and Jews do not claim eachothers faiths, we are seperate are we not? you however claim Islam and Mohamad though Islam does not claim you.....

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is not what I understand from Buddhism at all,His own writings declare there is no God such as in The bible. These are not others misconstruing his works. So are you telling me Buddha was a prophet of God? My God? The one you also claim? If he is a prophet , how could he change his mind? That is a first for any prophet I have seen. To once believe in God then Oppose God entirely hmmmmmm.

Please note that, the original writings of Buddha is not available..
You have no proof, those are His own teachings.
Buddha has lived long time ago.
He was a Manifestation of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

true, however Christians and Jews do not claim eachothers faiths, we are seperate are we not? you however claim Islam and Mohamad though Islam does not claim you.....

No you are not.
Messiah is the Promised one to the Jews. Is He not? Is not Moses a true prophet?
How can you separate yorself.

Please note: When you say, Islam and Baha'i Faith are the same. You have to make it clear. Are you talking the original Islam that Prophet Muhammad revealed, or you are talking the Islamic sects that was made-up by religious leaders, who added their own beliefs?

 

[Lady B]

Please note that, the original writings of Buddha is not available..
You have no proof, those are His own teachings.
Buddha has lived long time ago.
He was a Manifestation of God.

Aha so now Buddhists materials have been corrupted also, how convenient....

 

[oldbadger]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
Please note that, the original writings of Buddha is not available..
You have no proof, those are His own teachings.
Buddha has lived long time ago.
He was a Manifestation of God.

So...... you use the above words to show that the Buddha's teachings cannot be proved, and then continue to say that the Buddha was a manifestation of God. So...... where do you clutch hold of some proof for the last sentence of the above? This looks like 'debate wriggling?'

 

[Lady B]

No you are not.
Messiah is the Promised one to the Jews. Is He not? Is not Moses a true prophet?
How can you separate yorself.

Please note: When you say, Islam and Baha'i Faith are the same. You have to make it clear. Are you talking the original Islam that Prophet Muhammad revealed, or you are talking the Islamic sects that was made-up by religious leaders, who added their own beliefs?

WOa Hold on...I Never said Islam and Bahai faith is the same, I do not believe that at all. I said Bahai claims Islam as a true religion, as part of their own. I do not claim Judaism is a true religion, They do not claim Christianity is a true religion therefore we are separate.

let us not forget also, your religion is a couple hundred years old, Islam is well established and was so when yours came on the scene. So how do you now hold just some of Islam but not the new corrupted Islam?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So If the Bahai religion believes in Christs literal crucifiction, and Islam does not( contradiction) Also Islam claims Mohammad to be the final prophet (contradiction) How in the world can Bahai claim Islam as part of their faith? The one clearly disables the other in important doctrines, don't you think?

Take your time, I realize you have many questions to answer now that this can has been opened.

You are confusing being a part.
This is like saying Christianity is a part of Jewish Faith.

Baha'i faith has it's own 200 volumes of scriptures, and His Holy places.

Baha'i Scriptures says, there is only ONE Religion. That is renewed in every Age.

Thus the religion of God, is renewed by all His Manifestations in every Age.

Please see the following links, these exlain it better.
Also, please see my post for fear God. He asked, when did Muhammad say, he is all the Prophets.

Progressive revelation (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will be busy the rest of the Day. Please if you want read these references, and we shall continue.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
Please note that, the original writings of Buddha is not available..
You have no proof, those are His own teachings.
Buddha has lived long time ago.
He was a Manifestation of God.

So...... you use the above words to show that the Buddha's teachings cannot be proved, and then continue to say that the Buddha was a manifestation of God. So...... where do you clutch hold of some proof for the last sentence of the above? This looks like 'debate wriggling?'

Because, Buddha is confirmed in Baha'i Scriptures.

 

[Lady B]

Because, Buddha is confirmed in Baha'i Scriptures.

well then you have it Buddhists, Your Buddha you know and love was really a Bahai:sorry1:

 

[Lady B]

Investigate Truth, can you please confirm or deny what I have shown you in post 463. Is this accurate? I don't really want to assume the sources give a accurate depiction of what Bahai's believe of their prophet so please confirm or deny this before you go so that i may continue reading, thanks.

 

[Lady B]

Baha'i Scriptures says, there is only ONE Religion. That is renewed in every Age.

If This is true then here is my opinion on the matter....
God sure does change his mind alot doesn't he? first he had a son(christ), then he didnt have a son,(Islam) then there was no real literal God and surely no son (Buddhism) now he has lots of sons (Bahai)

 

[FearGod]

The following hath been recorded concerning the merits of ‘Akká, and of the sea, and of
Aynu’l-Baqar (The Spring of the Cow) which is in ‘Akká:
1. ‘Abdu’l-‘Azíz, son of Abdu’-Salam, hath related unto us that the Prophet—may the
blessings of God and His salutations be upon him—hath said: “‘Akká is a city in Syria
to which God hath shown His special mercy.”
2. Ibn-i-Mas’ud—may God be pleased with him—hath stated: “The Prophet—may the
blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: ‘Of all shores the best
is the shore of Askelon, and ‘Akká is, verily, better than Askelon, and the merit of
‘Akká above that of Askelon and all other shores is as the merit of Mu&#729;ammad
above that of all other Prophets. I bring you tidings of a city betwixt two mountains
in Syria, in the middle of a meadow, which is called ‘Akká. Verily, he that entereth
therein, longing for it and eager to visit it, God will forgive his sins, both of the past
and of the future. And he that departeth from it, other than as a pilgrim, God will
not bless his departure. In it is a spring called the Spring of the Cow. Whoso drinketh a draught therefrom, God will fill his heart with light, and will protect him
from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.’”
3. Anas, son of Malik—may God be pleased with him—hath said: “The Apostle of God—
may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: ‘By the shore
of the sea is a city, suspended beneath the Throne, and named ‘Akká. He that
dwelleth therein, firm and expecting a reward from God—exalted be He—God will
write down for him, until the Day of Resurrection, the recompense of such as have
been patient, and have stood up, and knelt down, and prostrated themselves, before
Him.’”
4. And He—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath said: “I
announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God—exalted be He! It is called ‘Akká. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will
be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face
of the enemy, God will gather him with Khi&#8706;r—peace be upon Him—and God will
protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.”
5. And He—may the blessings of God—exalted be He—and His salutations be upon
Him—hath said: “There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of ‘Akká are the
kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in ‘Akká is better than a thousand years elsewhere.”
6. The Apostle of God—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—
is reported to have said: “Blessed the man that hath visited ‘Akká, and blessed he that
hath visited the visitor of ‘Akká. Blessed the one that hath drunk from the Spring of
the Cow and washed in its waters, for the black-eyed damsels quaff the camphor in
Paradise, which hath come from the Spring of the Cow, and from the Spring of
Salvan (Siloam), and the Well of Zamzam. Well is it with him that hath drunk from
these springs, and washed in their waters, for God hath forbidden the fire of hell to
touch him and his body on the Day of Resurrection.”
7 The Prophet—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—is stated
to have said: “In ‘Akká are works of supererogation and acts which are beneficial,
which God vouchsafed specially unto whomsoever He pleaseth. And he that saith in
‘Akká: ‘Glorified be God, and praise be unto God, and there is none other God but
God, and most great is God, and there is no power nor strength except in God, the
Exalted, the Mighty,’ God will write down for him a thousand good deeds, and blot
out from him a thousand evil deeds, and will uplift him a thousand grades in
Paradise, and will forgive him his transgressions. And whoso saith in ‘Akká: ‘I beg
forgiveness of God,’ God will forgive all his trespasses. And he that remembereth
God in ‘Akká at morn and at eventide, in the night-season and at dawn, is better in
the sight of God than he who beareth swords, spears and arms in the path of God—
exalted be He!”

There is More.

References:

Akka Traditions (<i>hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

So your refernce is the Hadith which you said before that they are unreliable


in post #288
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
Well, the history of Islam shows that, the Prophet had asked the Muslims not to write Hadithes after Him. He had already warned His community that collection of Hadithes is not permitted.
It is mostly Hadithes that has made Muslims to believe in the finality of Quran. Otherwise the Quran itself is full of verses indicating the continuity of revelations from God.
Among the sayings of the Prophet forbidding writing Hadithes:

"Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an. Whoever wrote, must destroy it."
- Muhammad, as narrated by Abu Sa'eed al-Khudri[5][6]​

How well they have listened to the command of the Messenger! Instead, each group made a sect and kept arguing with other sects about validity of their own Hadithes...LOL

 

[Lady B]

So your refernce is the Hadith which you said before that they are unreliable


in post #288
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
Well, the history of Islam shows that, the Prophet had asked the Muslims not to write Hadithes after Him. He had already warned His community that collection of Hadithes is not permitted.
It is mostly Hadithes that has made Muslims to believe in the finality of Quran. Otherwise the Quran itself is full of verses indicating the continuity of revelations from God.
Among the sayings of the Prophet forbidding writing Hadithes:

"Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an. Whoever wrote, must destroy it."
- Muhammad, as narrated by Abu Sa'eed al-Khudri[5][6]​

How well they have listened to the command of the Messenger! Instead, each group made a sect and kept arguing with other sects about validity of their own Hadithes...LOL

I was going to mention that also, but resisted.....