Lady B
noob
In all due respect: The op is busy putting his displays together, He has asked we wait him and also gave us permission to go off-course in our side-debates. He will be back !
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The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World
- Thread starter al-amiyr
- Start date
In all due respect: The op is busy putting his displays together, He has asked we wait him and also gave us permission to go off-course in our side-debates. He will be back !
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Going back to our discussions, we were saying that, the Quran and the Bible say the same thing about Jesus as well as other Messengers.
It is only the misunderstanding of religious leaders that they are not the same. The followers of Islam and Christianity, following these leaders and putting their trust in them, have also believed these incorrect ideas.
Moreover, these ideas, such as finality of any religion or any messenger, is not only Biblical or Quranic, but also illogical.
As I quoted, the majority of Messengers, have claimed to be like God as they are the image of God. All are without sins.
It is only a fanatic view that the followers of religions, claim their Messenger is better than others. These claimes are not Biblical nor Quranic.
Moreover, we were showing, that some of the Christian leaders, have clung to the verses of Bible which is appealing to them, while denying other verses which disproves what they like. Similarly, some of th Moslem Religious leaders have clung to one verse of Quran which says Muhamad is the Seal, while ignoring all other verses of Quran and traditions which talk about future Messengers and revelations.
-Peace
Lady B
noob
I do not follow religious leaders to know the Bible and Koran portray a different Christ,It is evident in the entire NT Jesus was not a messenger But The son Of God.Try reading it without your presuppositions one day, can you?
You may have quoted this, but you haven't proven anything. You MIS-used Bible scripture to say what you want it to say. You showed scripture to show how Christ was the image of God, where does it say all messengers have this same image? What a jump you have made without textural back up!
I do not claim my messengers are better than yours. Christ is not in this category at all, sorry.
And by the way, I began reading some of the Bahala writings to see what He says about himself. Is it true he claimed he is Christ returned? Or The holy spirit as Christ promised would come after his ascension? Perhaps I misread or misunderstood ,I hope I have actually, Can you tell me exactly what Bahala says of himself as far as prophet status? And then tell me what your leaders and religion says of him? This is not part of the debate, I am just curious.....
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
LadyB,
I only do logical discussions here. Anyone who goes back and read my posts in this forum, can see, I have supported all my claimes using Bible and Quran. You can keep your beliefs for yourself.
And, Good, I see you learned how to quote separately.
I only do logical discussions here. Anyone who goes back and read my posts in this forum, can see, I have supported all my claimes using Bible and Quran. You can keep your beliefs for yourself.
And, Good, I see you learned how to quote separately.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Ok I put some Quotes from Baha'u'llah, here as per your request:
"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. " - Baha'u'llah
About religious leaders, Baha'u'llah removed any type of clergy from Baha'i Faith. Our scriptures, tells us to choose Baha'i assemblies by voting every year.
The claim of Baha'u'llah is clear.
"It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as Gods appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation Seal of the Prophets fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation."
(Baháulláh: Gleanings, p. 60)
"Truly the Cycle of Prophethood hath been rolled up and He Who hath sent down the Prophets hath come, arrayed with a manifest and perspicuous sovereignty. He, verily, is the One at Whose Advent all created things have given this utterance: The Kingdom is Gods, the Sovereign, the Almighty, the All-Praised. He is the One for Whom the necks of Gods Chosen Saints have been outstretched in longing and ardent expectation and every Prophet hath awaited His Presence in this wondrous Day. He is the One through Whom the One Unseen and Hidden hath been made manifest, the One Whom no one hath known save He Himself,[16] the one King over all mankind.[17] Peruse ye the Qurán and all Gods Books revealed in the past that haply ye may recognize this Day, illumined by the Countenance of thy Lord, the Manifest, the Perspicuous One. " -Baha'u'llah
Lawh-i-Hasan-i-Sháhábadí
"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. " - Baha'u'llah
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Christians and Muslims are still waiting for Jesus pbuh,and here is Bahaullah photograph,i thought jesus pbuh will looks as Mohammed pbuh described him of red complexion and not brown
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Did he say that the jews crucified jesus pbuh ? but i think Bahaullah was escaping from the Iranians and the muslims but not the Jews.
Lady B
noob
You have not supported your claims from Scripture once. You have mis-interpreted Bible verses taken them out of context and attempted to support your claims through distortion. They have been explained to you and refuted, therefore you have not proven anything. You make wild assumptions completely contrary to the Bible and ones that only your religion agrees with. This is not proof and far from logical .
Why do you suppose no Christian agrees with you that Jesus was only a prophet? Perhaps because we understand our own scriptures more that you? Is that possible you think? Are we all brainwashed? And you only see truth? We all misinterpret the Bible and just can't possibly comprehend it so therefore God decided to send your Bahala to clear things up?
Why do you suppose we know good that prophets were not sinless? Perhaps because we can see plainly God's word that no man is without sin, no not one. You even forget how man fell in the first place, what did Adam just forget what tree he was not suppose to eat? A mistake? Too many trees look the same? If It wasn't sin, why was he punished? Moses? Why was he punished? Is God unjust that he would punish a man for a lil o mistake? No he punished them for their sin.therfore they sinned. Therefore they are not sinless.
Ask yourself this: what would be the motive in Christians lying about their prophets and attributing them sin if they are sinless? It doesn't help us or hurt us, it hurts other religions who hold to the sinlessness of prophets, not us.So who needs this justification? You do,Islam does why? So that your own prophets can be sinless.like God's, Like Jesus....
In all due respect:
You really need to be reasonable and not assume you know more about the Scriptures in the bible than all Christians and all Bible Scholars. Did I assume I knew what Bahalala was saying about himself? I asked you, I assume you know more about what your writings say then I do. You don't ask, you boldly claim what my scriptures are saying, when refuted you claim you have made your point anyway. No really you have not.
As for the Koran, You have not proven Mohammad did not say he was the final messenger either. You made your own analogy of what the seal means, or used your Bahai writings to show what the seal means. You dismiss Mohammad's last sermon where he clearly states he is the last prophet. This is unrefuted even by a majority of non-Muslims as his very own words. It was witnessed by a multitude and documented well in history. His sermon is a historical and documented fact and Islam as a whole believes Mohammad was speaking truth and from God. Just because you say it,quote it,bend scripture to say it and use your own presuppositions doesn't make it proven.
Let us reason together shall we?
We all have a problem when Going to other religions and seeing what our minds intend.I have done same when studying Islam, because I know and believe my Bible when I look at other contrary writings my mind very easily forms it's own bias opinion and can read in theirs what I need it to say for my own religions sake. I admit this is a mistake of my own and know we all are capable of this and so often do we do this. I have one advantage, nothing your religions say can disable my religion, yet If mine is true there will be much gnashing of teeth.I feel perfectly safe and have Biblical assurance of my salvation. Therefore, I do not see the need to attack Mohammad to verify Christ. I do not have the need to attack Bahala to verify Christ. You have the need to make Christ equal to your prophets,so that your prophets are equal to Christ.
I am not concerned in what Bahala says about Christ, obliviously. I am interested in what bahala says about himself however. Can you enlighten me in This?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. "
It is both perfectly Biblical, and even according to the theology of Bible Scholars, Jesus is refered to as "The Image of God" and "The Mirror of God".
It is interesting to note that the mirror analogy was not unknown to early Christians; the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
Moreover, the following verses from the Bible confirm this:
"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18
and
“The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” Hebrew 1-3
According to Clarke commentary of Bible, the interpretation of Image of God:
The brightness of his glory - Απαυγασμα της δοξης The resplendent outbeaming of the essential glory of God. Hesychius interprets απαυγασμα by ᾑλιου φεγγος, the splendor of the sun. The same form of expression is used by an apocryphal writer, Wis. 7:26, where, speaking of the uncreated wisdom of God, he says: "For she is the splendor of eternal light, απαυγασμα γαρ εστι φωτος αΐδιου, and the unsullied mirror of the energy of God, and the image of his goodness." The word αυγασμα is that which has splendor in itself απαυγασμα is the splendor emitted from it; but the inherent splendor and the exhibited splendor are radically and essentially the same.
And according to Gill’s exposition:
so the phrase , "the brightness of his glory", is used of the divine Being, in the Chaldee paraphrases (r); see the Apocrypha.
"For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness.'' (Wisdom 7:26)
And the express image of his person; this intends much the same as the other phrase; namely, equality and sameness of nature, and distinction of persons; for if the Father is God, Christ must be so too; and if he is a person, his Son must be so likewise, or he cannot be the express image and character of him;
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" - Colossians 1:14-15
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Lady B
noob
Ok I am trying not to biasly read into his words my own presuppositions. Is He saying He is the manifest of Christ? and all messengers are manifest of Christ?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
The meaning is that, All Messengers of God are Manifestations of the attributes of God. They only differ in the intensity of their revelations.
Although there are Minor Prophets who are not considered as Manifestations of God. For example Aaron.
The manifestations of God are like perfect Mirror. See my last post for 1robin, an explaination to support this view from Bible, and Christian Scholars, who called Jesus, the Mirror and Image of God.
In every Age, a Manifestation of God appeares to reveal the Will of God. All of them are the Manifestation of the same God, and thus the "Return" of the same reality, as it is the image of the God that appears.
This is why Muhammad said, "I am all the Prophets"
Buddha said, "I am not the first Buddha, nore the Last Buddha, in future another Buddha shall come"
Accroding to the
Bhagavad-Gita, the Hindu Manifestion of God "He appears age after age"
According to Muhammad's Quran, each Age has Its own Book thus its own revelation. I can just keep going on to post from various scriptures, and traditions to show this view.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, He did.
That is Incorrect. He did not scape. The Moslem religious Leaders were scared that the Baha'i Faith is spread. They killed 20,000 of the early believers, and exciled Baha'u'llah from Iran to Iraq. Over there also, the Moslem Religious leaders were scared from the Truth to be spread, they exciled Baha'u'llah to Turkey. In turkey also, he Moslem religious leaders were scared of Spreading the Baha'i Faith then they Exciled Baha'u'llah to Palestine, the city of Akka.
It is part of Traditions of Prophet Muhamma, that, blessed is the one who visits, the visitor of Akka. (References upon request)
Lady B
noob
OK, let me get this straight please bare with me.....
Bahala is Christ, Mohamad was Christ and all prophets before were Christ, oh and Christ was Christ?
Ok let me first clarify something ok? tell me please what scriptures or writings from which religions the Bahai religion holds as the word of God. I ask because now you mention Buddha, which holds to no God. This is important for you to clarify if you want me to understand your religion. If you do not have this intent, then so be it.
Lady B
noob
Ok now you have alot of work to do
please tell me why, (even if it is your own opinion) muslims were scared of the Bahai faith spreading, were there so many contradictions? and why if there is so much differences in the two religions would Bahai keep Islam as part of their belief system.
disclaimer:
THis is not part of our debate so i value your opinion, as a representative of the Bahai faith.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Ok now you have alot of work to do
please tell me why, (even if it is your own opinion) muslims were scared of the Bahai faith spreading, were there so many contradictions? and why if there is so much differences in the two religions would Bahai keep Islam as part of their belief system.
disclaimer:
THis is not part of our debate so i value your opinion, as a representative of the Bahai faith.
Good point.
Also why he'll be scared from muslims whom actually will be with Jesus pbuh and not against him.
Lady B
noob
I can take a guess, but it may not be true
If Bahala claimed he is the returned Christ, even Islam will be angry...for they too wait His return and The bible and Koran both agree to a large extent his return means something,there is purpose for his return. clearly that hasn't happened as of yet.