The Hadith, source of Islamic atrocities.

[icehorse]

Without evidence, these are just your subjective beliefs and opinions. I think your full of **** personally, if you actually think this and aren't just trying to be provocative. These things you assert, are the polar opposite of the Qur'an's values, and those of Muhammad's teachings.

First off, it's generally accepted that when a debater resorts to ad hominem attacks, it's a sign of a weak argument. So I'd advise you to hold back on those personal slurs.

Second, I read the Quran, and my claims are not subjective. The Quran declares itself to be easy to understand. Muslims declare it to be perfect. Therefore no one should have to rely on another person to read and understand the book. Its messages of hatred towards non-Muslims could not be more clear.

 

[icehorse]

I don't think there is a term that encompasses them both, my friend. One is claimed to be divine; the other is rumor. They are opposites.

We've had some good discussions in the past, so I'm hoping that your phrase "my friend" was meant in a positive light.

I will say however that calling the Hadith "rumor" really misrepresents their importance and place of honor in Islamic thinking.

 

[Mudramoksha]

First off, it's generally accepted that when a debater resorts to ad hominem attacks

When a user resorts to calling out ad hominem attacks where there are none, it's usually a sign of a weak argument.

So I'd advise you to hold back on those personal slurs.

You're the one doing the talking, not me. I do think your full of crap though, as I've stated, all you have is subjective opinion and nothing the Qur'an actually says. This is not an ad hominem, it's an observation.

Second, I read the Quran, and my claims are not subjective.

They are, actually.
And again, in post #35, you made a lot of subjective statements that have no basis in the contents of the Qur'an, sorry to break it to you.

The Quran declares itself to be easy to understand.

Not quite, it declares that it is describing complex things in a manner that is intended to convey them 'easier', which is why it states numerous times when it is 'speaking in allegories'.

Its messages of hatred towards non-Muslims could not be more clear.

"non-Muslims"? define "non-Muslims" in Quranic semantics for me?

Again, your post on #35 is just an example of how you really are talking crap, I'm not going to restrain from calling it how it is, Icehorse.

 

[dybmh]

We've had some good discussions in the past, so I'm hoping that your phrase "my friend" was meant in a positive light.

I will say however that calling the Hadith "rumor" really misrepresents their importance and place of honor in Islamic thinking.

Yes, I really do consider you, my friend. In spite of our differences of opinion, you have always been very nice to me. And I appreciate it.

Regarding calling Hadith a rumor. I think it is a fair label. What is Hadith? So-and-so heard that the Prophet said or did x,y,or,z.. That's a rumor. What is the Qur'an? According to Islam, it is divine revelation. The two are completely different and I don't think they can be spoken of as equivalents without misrepresenting the religion.

 

[icehorse]

Again, your post on #35 is just an example of how you really are talking crap, I'm not going to restrain from calling it how it is, Icehorse.

Is "talking crap" a technical term? Can you be specific about which of my claims you consider to be crap?

 

[Mudramoksha]

Is "talking crap" a technical term? Can you be specific about which of my claims you consider to be crap?

This garbage:

I really can't imagine your value system. Because the Quran is filled with hatred towards non-Muslims, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, and calls for totalitarian society. Are your values aligned with those values?

As I said, post #35.

These are your beliefs. Icehorse's belief system includes the belief that the Qur'an is filled with the aforementioned. Icehorse believes these things, it is his subjective opinion, not factual to what the Qur'an teaches.

Now we can establish that you have no arguments, you're just empty words and false accusations.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Respectful question: Is that what you think a Jihad is? Jihad is not a physical act of war. There is a different word for that. And it is certainly not rape. Rape is prohibited by the Qur'an.

I am actually a little surprised that you brought rape into this discussion. Many people cherry pick verses from the Old Testament in an effort to show that the Bible allows rape.

The point is: These things that you think Muhammad said because they are in a Hadith. It's fine for you to believe it. But Islam, the religion, teaches that the Qur'an is the most authentic version of what Muhammad said and taught.

Reading 1 collection of Hadith and considering it to hold more authority than the Qur'an is a very bad idea. This is not mainstream Islam. I'm not sure what it is, to be honest.

I agree fullheartedly with you.
Everything you noted is true.
The problem I have is that:
This is the way I am told it should be, But when I look at what Islamic fundamentalists are doing, they do not interperete the writings in a modereate fashion.
Muslims are the ones that uses the Hadith to condone Isis, al kQuada etc.

 

[SA Huguenot]

What seems flawed to me is the idea that either:

- 1.8 billion people can't be trusted to read the scripture on their own - as non-scholars

or

- 1.8 billion people are meant to rely on interpretations of Islamic scholars who can't even agree with each other.

==

Why should non-Muslims rely on individual apologist's interpretations, such as yours? How do you come to conclude that your interpretations are the "correct" ones? I'm not trying to be snarky here.

And I agree with your observation.
However, It is important to let everyone know that with what Islam is sitting here is a great show.
And I believe that billions of Muslims are sincere in their religion, however, they are easily over ruled by their Islamic court to adhere to fundamentalist Islam.
The West dont have a problem with Muslims, but with the conquest phylosophy of Islam and if the normal westerner dont know why, they will fall victim to their culture being overrun.
This is already a fact in Europe.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Which scholar did you win in a debate?

Usually a scholar will give you the context.

But are you now saying you agree the Qur'an isn't to blame for terrorism?

It would be useful if you quoted the actual Hadiths that you think are at fault.

No, the Quran was compiled during Muhammad's life already.
What is written in the Hadith is actually the unredacted version of Islam.
Uthman and Abd al malik revised the Quran to what we see today.
The original wording was simply either burned or cooked to re use the velium.
There are many ancient recorded accusations about verses added into the Quran, others removed, some verses was lost due other reasons such as Aisha who fed one revelation to a goat that had a revelation of how anyone who visited Muhammad's wives had to suckle their breasts, which would make them their children and prevent any adultery.
Anyhow, The Quran is very clear to a Muslim scholar on terrorism.
Anyone who WAGES WAR AGAINST ALLAH, OR HIS APOSTLE, MUST BE KILLED.
problem is, the Muslim will tell you this is only during wartime, and everyone will believe it.

But go a bit further and ask, HOW DOES ONE WAGE WAR AGAINST ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE?
then you learn the truth.
Dont insult islam.
Dont insult Muhammad.
Dont mock Muhammad with cartoons.
Dont question the Quran, it is actually divine, burning one incites Jihad.

Now, if the Western civilisation dont know the above, they will remain ignorant to the dangers of Islam, and will never ubderstand why Terrorism occurs.
This is then further watered down by the political and media spinners as "Fundamentalism".

 

[SA Huguenot]

You should make the point that not all Muslims are violent. I have known many Muslims who are as loving as good Christians. It is the same for Muslim terrorists as it is and was with violent Christians with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the early monks in the Americas, the Salem witch trials, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, Christians who murdered abortion doctors because murder was against the Ten Commandments and so many more. Christianity has a long history of violence.

And these Christians you refer to are doing these acts in the name of Jesus, and dont have any SCRIPTUAL SUPPORT TO DO WHAT THY DO.
You show me one instruction by jesus where he called for humans to kill others in his name, and I will turn Atheist.
Furthermore, the people during the Crusades were doing something which the Clerics and Kings told them to do, simply because they never read the Bible, and was told by the churches to go and fight against the Muslims who were raiding the Pilgrims to jerusalem, and selling the viclims as slave.
Now, all these Kings, Popes, and clerrics who lied to the Armies and indoctronated the normal man to go on a crusade to receive eternal salvation, will answer to Jesus on their lies.

Anyhow, I myself know many Muslims, and true, 99% of Muslims also dont know what the Quran and hadith say, but they are sincere in their worship, and dont know what is said in the Quran.
I know a Muslim who memorised the Quran from Arabic, that tells me I am a liar on certain verses I quote, only because he never even went to learn the meaning of what he memorised.
Islam is a vicious controlling religion that long ago learned the art to keep everyone in the dark.

By showing them what I found, the light starts to enter this domain.

 

[SA Huguenot]

He only studied enough to pronounce Muslims violent but forgot to study the other parts. On the other hand, he didn't study the Bible enough to know that Christians are supposed to love others.

And it is this love that made me to sit down and to collect the Truth.
One can never find the Truth without feeling hurt by the mere fact that what you believed and loved was totally false.
Jordan peterson sums this fact up the best when he says, your feelings are second to the reality.
it is uncomfortable, but must be said!

 

[Mudramoksha]

There are many ancient recorded accusations about verses added into the Quran, others removed, some verses was lost due other reasons such as Aisha who fed one revelation to a goat that had a revelation of how anyone who visited Muhammad's wives had to suckle their breasts, which would make them their children and prevent any adultery.

Yes, the kinds of stuff you'd expect to find in Bukhari. Your favorite book?

Anyone who WAGES WAR AGAINST ALLAH, OR HIS APOSTLE, MUST BE KILLED.

Please explain for us what this actually means?
And also, how can you 'wage war' against the substrate of Reality?

Now, if the Western civilisation dont know the above, they will remain ignorant to the dangers of Islam

The Western media is only filled with propaganda against Islam, do you think this is un-treaded ground?

 

[Mudramoksha]

Anyhow, I myself know many Muslims, and true, 99% of Muslims also dont know what the Quran and hadith say

I think it's more that you, Mr Protestant, think you have the answer and that you with your fundamentalism and terrorist-apologetics know better than the average Muslim about their theology. Even though orthodox Islamic theology and hermeneutics is far superior and nuanced than your own.

You take Bukhari as valid and entirely without question, that's enough of a sign that you're not a reliable commenter on Islam.

Just remember that Jesus gave you Genesis 38.

 

[SA Huguenot]

OK, so lets see if the Bible is a violent book in reality, or in your relatice comparison with the Quran.

The Holy Bible

Exodus 21:17
“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exodus 21:16
“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

So, if you capture a girl and uses her as a sex slave, its OK?
Are you sick?
I will personally kill anyone who does that!

Leviticus 21:9
And the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by whoring, profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.

And here we have Israel in the desert with God Himself in their midst. a tribe of priests worshipping God daily, with the whole of Israel seing God's glory, and we have a priests' daughter whoring around. God personally tells Moses that she should be executed.
2 things.1. Do you think it would be fine to play harlot in such sircumstances where God himself is present, do you think it is fine to whore around loke the Ba'aalah worshippers around them who sent theit women to play whores with the men of Israel??
2nd, here we have the word of God himself speaking to Moses, then we have Jesus who told the priests who accused a woman of adultery that if they dont have any sin, they can execute her. they did not, because they were not as dedicated in their religion as the priests who served God in Sinai.

Proverbs 20:30
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.

So, what?
I like this verse.

Exodus 22:18
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Again, here they had God Himself in their midst, and they had Moses a living prophet through who God spoke. And they would call a sorceress?
Do you see the problem here?

Deuteronomy 2:34
And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors.

Why?
Because of the Evil the Ba'allah worshippers practiced such as burning their firstborn children alive in the arms of a brass idol Molech. using Temple prostitution where every woman must do temple service once a year as a whore, where human sacrifice and canibalism was practiced etc.
Everyone always complain how God does nothing about evil, here He did something, and you have the audacity to call this an atrocity?

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

And this prophecy happened because Israel (Samaria) went and worshipped Ba'allah, Molech etc.
After Solomons death, the 10 tribes declared that they will leave YHWH, and will worship Ba'Allah.
In the previous note you complained how God destroyed the Cananite people, here you can see that hHis own nation Israel was treated the same.
Guys, Because of this historical event, I totally trust the Judgement of YHWH.
If YHWH took Israel as his nation, lived amongst tem, gave them a land and served them, and they spit in his face like this, and He had them destroyed, sent into captivity to never return to their original land, how much more will He care for those that worship Him and Love Him?
Any Atheist should think twice before they challenge the Living God of Israel!

Numbers 31:3
So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Note, here we have God Himself in the middle of Israel insreucting Israel to destroy these nations as I explained.
Now you come here and say: Because Moses received an instruction from God personally to destroy 7 nations, Muslims today have a right to kill Christians and Jews because Muhammad said so 1400 years ago!
Damn I am glad I wont have to answer to God on your accusations against inocent people who lost their lives in Islamic terrorism, as you accuse these inocents of being murdered bu YHWH!
Are you realy ready for that?

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

And what did Jesus say?
I believe in the Old Testament in full, I also realise that there is reasons why things are written in certain times, situations etc.
But, dont ever misguide the judgement that was excercised by God Himself in the wilderness where He personally was, with the curcumstances after Israel and Judah left God.
We are now living with the Laws written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31) as Jesus gave it to us.
Show me one place where Jesus said we should go and kill in His Name, or Kill those who Insult Jesus, the Bible, or any fellow Christian.
Therefore your argument is one of willfully atacking Jesus.
Guess what, Jesus told me not to worry, He will one day ask you in person why you did this.

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Agg, we already discussed this.

Sounds pretty violent to me. I especially like all the stuff about killing children and ripping open pregnant womens' stomachs.

And there are many more verses.

So, I guess the Bible is a violent book.

I guess you went to an Atheist website to get the above.
Try the scepticsannodatedbible.com There are much more self centered Atheist Idolatory you can enjoy.
I dont Guess anything in life!
I go and find out for myself.
Just as Muslims listen to their Scholars, You listen to your Atheist priests, and believe everything they say.
Greetings in Jesus' Name.

 

[dybmh]

I agree fullheartedly with you.
Everything you noted is true.
The problem I have is that:
This is the way I am told it should be, But when I look at what Islamic fundamentalists are doing, they do not interperete the writings in a modereate fashion.
Muslims are the ones that uses the Hadith to condone Isis, al kQuada etc.

Muslims are also the ones who speak out against Isis using the Qur'an.

 

[Wasp]

I know a Muslim who memorised the Quran from Arabic, that tells me I am a liar on certain verses I quote, only because he never even went to learn the meaning of what he memorised.

May God grant him patience.

 

[danieldemol]

I think it is a bit disingenuous to act like the majority of Muslims are Quran alone Muslims, the majority of Muslims place great emphasis on those Hadith considered authentic by their scholars and are not Quran alone Muslims

 

[Wasp]

I think it is a bit disingenuous to act like the majority of Muslims are Quran alone Muslims, the majority of Muslims place great emphasis on those Hadith considered authentic by their scholars and are not Quran alone Muslims

Who said that? Quranists disobey the Qur'an. That's their issue.

 

[danieldemol]

Who said that? Quranists disobey the Qur'an. That's their issue.

It looks to me like @dybmh was trying to imply that the majority of Muslims treat the Hadith as mere rumour, which is what my post was addressing.

 

[Wasp]

It looks to me like @dybmh was trying to imply that the majority of Muslims treat the Hadith as mere rumour, which is what my post was addressing.

I didn't seem so to me. When he used the word rumour - though an odd word to use - he wasn't speaking about how Muslims treat the hadith, but about whether the Qur'an and the hadith are equal.