The Hadith, source of Islamic atrocities.

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's not much of a definition. It merely names it something and claims a time when it began. Salafi is a person who follows the way of the Salaf. In other words a Muslim who follows the Qur'an and the Sunnah. And a Muslim is someone who follows the Qur'an and the Sunnah. A Sunni by definition is a Muslim who follows the Qur'an and the Sunnah. See what I'm getting at? They are literally the same. This so called "Salafism" seems different to the victims of propaganda because they can't separate it from the politics of Saudi Arabia. Which is also why whenever a question arises as to what this that they call a "sect" of Islam is, they immediately start talking about politics.

You are being confusing. Are you saying there's no Muslim denominations? So how do you explain the difference between Sunni and Shia, for instance?

 

[dybmh]

Yes what I am asking for is more transparency on the consensus of the traditional schools of Islam.

How many Muslims want it enforced will depend on how many are brainwashed into believing the traditional schools of Islam represent God’s will, and it would be unwise to assume they are a minority. If people who reject all four(?) schools are in the majority I would certainly want to know that rather than just having it assumed.

You say it would be unwise to assume they are a minority? I say, it is unwise to assume they are a majority.

 

[dybmh]

@danieldemol ,

Support for Death Penalty for Converts away from Islam:

The best data I can find on the subject is coming from Pew Research 6 years ago. The survey ignored North America and Europe and found that in 5 countries and the Palestinian Territories, there was a majority approval for the death penalty for Converts away from Islam. I think in order to truly understand this data, one would need to look very closely at the way the question was phrased.

But on the surface, according to Pew in 2013: the death penalty for apostasy is not supported by the majority of Muslims.

hyperlink >>> pewforum.org - Muslim Beliefs About Sharia

 

[danieldemol]

They are perfectly transperent. Use the Internet. You can email the scholars of the traditional schools. Ask them what you want.

Emailing individual scholars will give me the opinions of individuals, if the Wahhabis can produce IslamQA and they are a minority I think the majority easily have the resources to publish their consensus.

 

[icehorse]

But then how do YOU come to the conclusion that the OP is right?

I haven't addressed the OP, only some comments that followed.

 

[danieldemol]

@danieldemol ,

Support for Death Penalty for Converts away from Islam:

The best data I can find on the subject is coming from Pew Research 6 years ago. The survey ignored North America and Europe and found that in 5 countries and the Palestinian Territories, there was a majority approval for the death penalty for Converts away from Islam. I think in order to truly understand this data, one would need to look very closely at the way the question was phrased.

But on the surface, according to Pew in 2013: the death penalty for apostasy is not supported by the majority of Muslims.

hyperlink >>> pewforum.org - Muslim Beliefs About Sharia

It is supported by the majority in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Jordan and Palestine, those are substantial numbers of Muslims that are too large to just ignore if you value your own personal safety, and even if it where only say for example 25% of Muslims, I see no reason why that 25% should be protected from criticism.

 

[dybmh]

Emailing individual scholars will give me the opinions of individuals, if the Wahhabis can produce IslamQA and they are a minority I think the majority easily have the resources to publish their consensus.

It's a weak argument, isn't it?

A lack of evidence is not evidence.

 

[Wasp]

You are being confusing. Are you saying there's no Muslim denominations? So how do you explain the difference between Sunni and Shia, for instance?

Sorry, I'm trying to be perfectly clear.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is a fundamental problem with the term Salafi.

One thing where is shows is that the Saudi government is frequently called Salafi. But which part of the cutting innocent journalists to pieces or bombing civilians for years on end, for instance, is something a Salafi would do? Yet when the crimes of Saudi Arabia are brought up a lot of people immediately shout out "its because they're Salafi", or "they're wahabbis". But these words have no meaning. The people who speak them don't know their meaning.

So what does it essentially mean to say a website is "Salafi"? Especially islamqa.info which clearly has false information in its contents. Because of that absurd information it cannot legitimately be called "Salafi". And because of the site keeper's strange ideas about Islam, such as that Allah has feet or hands, he cannot adequately be called a "Salafi" either.

Following the way of the Salafi according to most Muslims would undoubtedly be a positive thing. So why is here the word Salafi an insult? It makes no sense because the word is used incorrectly. The purpose of the word is to cause disunity, and political disorder. Unfortunately it really does affect the Muslim ummah as a whole.

 

[dybmh]

It is supported by the majority in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Jordan and Palestine, those are substantial numbers of Muslims that are too large to just ignore if you value your own personal safety, and even if it where only say for example 25% of Muslims, I see no reason why that 25% should be protected from criticism.

Those areas do not reflect the majority opinion of Muslims world-wide. The survey shows that support for death penalty for converts is Geographic.

Let's be fair, please?

At first, your claim was that a majority of Muslims support the death penalty for Apostasy. Now that number has been reduced to 25%. Once North America and Europe is added back in, what would the percentage be?

20%?
15%?

That is a huge difference compared to over 50% ( which was your original assumption ).

The data we have shows that most Muslims do not support death penalty for apostasy. Islam is not a one dimensional, black and white, all or nothing religion. It is diverse. It is International. The support for this rule is Geographic and it is limited.

 

[Wasp]

It is supported by the majority in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Jordan and Palestine, those are substantial numbers of Muslims that are too large to just ignore if you value your own personal safety, and even if it where only say for example 25% of Muslims, I see no reason why that 25% should be protected from criticism.

Your safety? To be punished for that you'd have to be a muslim.

For a person to be officially an apostate in court they have to say it. If they are suspected of being one they can redo their shahada in court. So no one is legally "made" an apostate by accident. You have to declare your apostasy.

For you that might sound like a nice revolutionary thing to do, but people in places like Palestine have problems ever so slightly bigger. So even if they don't believe, if they don't make a scene no one will know and they're safe, from the Palestinians..

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sorry, I'm trying to be perfectly clear.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is a fundamental problem with the term Salafi.

One thing where is shows is that the Saudi government is frequently called Salafi. But which part of the cutting innocent journalists to pieces or bombing civilians for years on end, for instance, is something a Salafi would do? Yet when the crimes of Saudi Arabia are brought up a lot of people immediately shout out "its because they're Salafi", or "they're wahabbis". But these words have no meaning. The people who speak them don't know their meaning.

So what does it essentially mean to say a website is "Salafi"? Especially islamqa.info which clearly has false information in its contents. Because of that absurd information it cannot legitimately be called "Salafi". And because of the site keeper's strange ideas about Islam, such as that Allah has feet or hands, he cannot adequately be called a "Salafi" either.

Following the way of the Salafi according to most Muslims would undoubtedly be a positive thing. So why is here the word Salafi an insult? It makes no sense because the word is used incorrectly. The purpose of the word is to cause disunity, and political disorder. Unfortunately it really does affect the Muslim ummah as a whole.

Okay, I can understand what you're saying now. So what do you think we should call them, then?

 

[Wasp]

Emailing individual scholars will give me the opinions of individuals, if the Wahhabis can produce IslamQA and they are a minority I think the majority easily have the resources to publish their consensus.

If you email the correct ones you'll have an opinion of many many individuals. They teach people you see, and they know what they're taking about for the most part.

Of course you can also read. It was only a suggestion since you claim the information is difficult to access? You might be the only one to whom it is difficult.

 

[Mudramoksha]

You've got a tough case to make. Start by explaining: 2:191, 4:34, 7:81, 47:4,

Could you explain these verses first for me?

heck just explain the first couple of pages from Surah 2.

Which verses? the first few pages are actually quite amazing, as far as scriptures go.

 

[Mudramoksha]

The purpose of the word is to cause disunity, and political disorder. Unfortunately it really does affect the Muslim ummah as a whole.

You mean the purpose of the movement, the kafir invention.

 

[danieldemol]

Your safety? To be punished for that you'd have to be a muslim.

For a person to be officially an apostate in court they have to say it. If they are suspected of being one they can redo their shahada in court. So no one is legally "made" an apostate by accident. You have to declare your apostasy.

For you that might sound like a nice revolutionary thing to do, but people in places like Palestine have problems ever so slightly bigger. So even if they don't believe, if they don't make a scene no one will know and they're safe, from the Palestinians..

It is truly sad if you see that as an acceptable state of affairs

 

[Wasp]

Okay, I can understand what you're saying now. So what do you think we should call them, then?

Who? The Saudis? Fundamentalist Muslims?

Personally, and this opinion is shared by many scholars as well, I accept the use of the word Salafi, if it refers to certain principles in the practice of religion.

One thing that drives these Salafis and shias to each others throats is that the Salafis consider it absolutely prohibited to pray to anyone else but Allah. To pray to the dead, even if to Muhammad himself, is absolutely prohibited. While some shias regularly pray "through" Ali. And say things like "ya Ali" (o, Ali) calling for his help. This is considered shirk.

Exactly what amount of it or exactly what part of it is acceptable and what is shirk is what people don't agree on.

Shias are one extreme end - almost anything is allowed (regarding this^)
What they call "sunnis" (they sometimes use it as a very general term, as if all sunnis were the same) supposedly do the same. But since there are different schools and different peoples it is very difficult to point a specific group that accepts a specific thing. Some sunnis consider it acceptable, others don't.

Some sunnis consider praying "through" Muhammad okay, others don't.
Salafis are the other extreme end. All those things are prohibited. Only pray to Allah. Salafis are Sunnis.


A major difference from a religious point of view, but is definitely not the reason for the cold War. It's what they use to incite this mutual hatred.

 

[Wasp]

It is truly sad if you see that as an acceptable state of affairs

It's sad you couldn't derive any deeper meaning from my post.

 

[Wasp]

You mean the purpose of the movement, the kafir invention.

I don't uderstand.

 

[Mudramoksha]

Salafis are Sunnis.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus are no better. I really like how Hindus display their deities in front of motel windows while displaying racist behavior. That's just one encounter.

Yes, Hindus are better. They would never take up an AK-47 and go on shooting innocents or place a bomb in a bus. We resent some types of (frivolous) behavior, and I think that shows. We are generally a conservative people. I do not see anything wrong in putting the idols of their deities in their homes or businesses. They are being grateful. They don't wish anybody any harm. One gets respect if one gives respect. It is a mutual thing.

But on the surface, according to Pew in 2013: the death penalty for apostasy is not supported by the majority of Muslims.

They don't have to have a rule about it. They would just murder the person. So many of such murders have taken place in Pakistan and elsewhere. Like I said - One set teeth to show and another to eat.

Technically, Muslims cannot judge any other Muslim on questions of belief. It is between him/her and Allah. If the person is right, Allah will give reward, if wrong, the punishment.