The Hadith, source of Islamic atrocities.

[Mudramoksha]

- It is your confusion speaking. I am an atheist, there is no God/Gods/Goddesses for me.

Then Brahman too goes bye bye. You know that I'm not talking about devas and deities.
If you're truly an atheist then you've let go of Advaita and Adi Shankara forever and that's fine if you want to demote yourself from Advaita.
I think Advaita Vedanta is crap myself, obviously you don't think much of it either to be an atheist.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ahmadiyya is a good example. They are targets of extremists yet do not respond with violence in kind.

Ahmadiyyas and Bahais don't, because they do not have the power. Allah changed the direction of bowing (Qibla) after Mohammad came to power.

 

[dybmh]

Ahmadiyyas and Bahais don't, because they do not have the power. Allah changed the direction of bowing (Qibla) after Mohammad came to power.

One gets respect if one gives respect. It is a mutual thing.

What happened to mutual respect? Why don't you respect the Ahmadiyyas?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have stated a fact, I have not disrespected Ahmadiyyas or Bahais. My views differ from Abrahamic views, they differ even with mail-line Hindu views, who also are just as God-fixated as the Abrahamics, only that they cater to many instead of one. I am a strong atheist.

I have studied Quran as well as Hadiths quite thoroughly and could reply to many issues raised here, but I am not in mood to go back to it.

.. If you're truly an atheist then you've let go of Advaita ..

Yeah, I know it is no use discussing anything with you. But just let me state that 'advaita' or what existed when the universe began is a question of science.

"The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological description of the development of the Universe. Under this theory, space and time emerged together 13.8 billion years ago and the energy and matter initially present have become less dense as the Universe expanded."
Universe - Wikipedia

 

[stvdv]

I view the lack of online resources with suspicion, western folk should have the right to know in writing how the traditional schools of Islam interpret on rulings such as apostasy and insult without having to rely on the marketeering of westernised preachers.

Traditionally certain groups kept information secret for their own reasons ... 1 reason is to keep the people ignorant so the group keeps control
Honest people without a hidden agenda, are willing to share this type of information. Not sharing makes me wonder; nah it makes it even clear

 

[danieldemol]

Those areas do not reflect the majority opinion of Muslims world-wide. The survey shows that support for death penalty for converts is Geographic.

Let's be fair, please?

At first, your claim was that a majority of Muslims support the death penalty for Apostasy. Now that number has been reduced to 25%. Once North America and Europe is added back in, what would the percentage be?

20%?
15%?

That is a huge difference compared to over 50% ( which was your original assumption ).

The data we have shows that most Muslims do not support death penalty for apostasy. Islam is not a one dimensional, black and white, all or nothing religion. It is diverse. It is International. The support for this rule is Geographic and it is limited.

If 1 in 10 people in your country wanted to kill you would you see it as fair? Or would you say they have to face criticism till they disappear? I say the latter.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I studied the Quran and Islam for the past 10 years or so, and at one stage I saw that the explanations Muslim Scholars gave me on various problem verses was always one of opinion.
It works this way.
I might find a verse that say

• You should wage war against the Christian and Jew.
• The Muslim scholar will then tell me to read everything in context, to which I agree.
• He will inform me that this is only allowed when Muslims are attacked. Then If the attacker stops being agressive, the Muslims should allow the attacker to make peace.
• I will ask him what does it mean that Muslims should fight in the way of Allah against those who wage war against him.
• and he will reply that if Muslims are attacked they should fight back, he will give me a whole story of how I will react if someone attacks my mother, or kills my wife etc.

Therefore, if one reasons out of the Quran alone, it is not easy to get to the bottom of why Muslims do the terrible things such as suicide bombings, Honor Killings, beheadings and so forth.

But this all becomes clear once you get hold of the Hadith and read what Muhammad said and did.
Then the Muslim scholar is silenced because they never thought that the English translations of their 2nd most holy scriptures will be read by the Western Judeo Christian civilisation.
The Hadith is the acts and utterances Muhammad made during his life, which was remembered by his Wifes and companions after he died in 632AD.

The oldest hadith was collected by Al Bukhari and completed in 850Ad, more than 200 years after Muhammad died.
There are 6 Imam's who Muslims consider to be truthfull collectors, and which they follow. I only use Al Bukhari, because it is the closest to Muhammads time, even though 200 years off, and the result is, no one can critisize my research.
The way Muslims wear long beards, short moustaches, their clothing and head cover, their words, prayers, greetings, going to toilet, washing, having intercourse, everything is dictated by the hadith.
So, here is the reason why Muslims act as they do.

Notice that there are two sets of hadith, the Sunni version and the Shia version. You are discussing the Sunni version.

What I don't understand is how they find the context of the Hadiths since it consists of bits and pieces of information without much saying the context. Muslims have shown me hadith explaining a Quran verse and I often ask "where does the hadith say it is referring to that verse?"

 

[Samael_Khan]

What does all of this tell Christians and Jews to do?

The Holy Bible

Exodus 21:17
“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exodus 21:16
“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9
And the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by whoring, profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.

Proverbs 20:30
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.

Exodus 22:18
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Deuteronomy 2:34
And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors.

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

Numbers 31:3
So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Sounds pretty violent to me. I especially like all the stuff about killing children and ripping open pregnant womens' stomachs.

And there are many more verses.

So, I guess the Bible is a violent book.

Those are referring to Israelites under the law except for Proverbs and maybe Hosea, not Christians. The biblical God isn't a pacifist. He will destroy his creation if he has to. Christianity is more like a period of peace in which they act as "prophets", warning people about the coming destruction. Which is why it currently promotes peace.

It also makes sense that a creator would destroy a defective creation. Much like I would if I created a drawing in my image which looked rubbish.

 

[Wasp]

Yes, Hindus are better. They would never take up an AK-47 and go on shooting innocents or place a bomb in a bus.

Hindu terrorism is definitely a thing.

 

[oldbadger]

I studied the Quran and Islam for the past 10 years or so, and at one stage I saw that the explanations Muslim Scholars gave me on various problem verses was always one of opinion.
It works this way.
I might find a verse that say

• You should wage war against the Christian and Jew.
• The Muslim scholar will then tell me to read everything in context, to which I agree.
• He will inform me that this is only allowed when Muslims are attacked. Then If the attacker stops being agressive, the Muslims should allow the attacker to make peace.
• I will ask him what does it mean that Muslims should fight in the way of Allah against those who wage war against him.
• and he will reply that if Muslims are attacked they should fight back, he will give me a whole story of how I will react if someone attacks my mother, or kills my wife etc.

Therefore, if one reasons out of the Quran alone, it is not easy to get to the bottom of why Muslims do the terrible things such as suicide bombings, Honor Killings, beheadings and so forth.

But this all becomes clear once you get hold of the Hadith and read what Muhammad said and did.
Then the Muslim scholar is silenced because they never thought that the English translations of their 2nd most holy scriptures will be read by the Western Judeo Christian civilisation.
The Hadith is the acts and utterances Muhammad made during his life, which was remembered by his Wifes and companions after he died in 632AD.

The oldest hadith was collected by Al Bukhari and completed in 850Ad, more than 200 years after Muhammad died.
There are 6 Imam's who Muslims consider to be truthfull collectors, and which they follow. I only use Al Bukhari, because it is the closest to Muhammads time, even though 200 years off, and the result is, no one can critisize my research.
The way Muslims wear long beards, short moustaches, their clothing and head cover, their words, prayers, greetings, going to toilet, washing, having intercourse, everything is dictated by the hadith.
So, here is the reason why Muslims act as they do.

Well, you got that off your chest.

Now let's ask how Protestant Christians have murdered and stolen as much as they have

People in glass houses ............ ?

 

[Wasp]

What I don't understand is how they find the context of the Hadiths since it consists of bits and pieces of information without much saying the context. Muslims have shown me hadith explaining a Quran verse and I often ask "where does the hadith say it is referring to that verse?"

Hadiths talk about it at times. The hadith that speaks of the meaning of a verse usually comes from Muhammad. And naturally when Muhammad was teaching the shahaba he didn't just randomly say whatever is written in the hadith. The hadith that you find is just the main part of what has been written down as the most relevant.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Hadiths talk about it at times. The hadith that speaks of the meaning of a verse usually comes from Muhammad. And naturally when Muhammad was teaching the shahaba he didn't just randomly say whatever is written in the hadith. The hadith that you find is just the main part of what has been written down as the most relevant.

Can you give an example please?

 

[Wasp]

Can you give an example please?

Exactly about what?

These are Hadiths explaining verses:

"Aisha reported that these words of Allah: "When they came upon you from above you and from below you and when the eyes turned dull and the hearts rose up to the throats" (xxxiii. 10) pertain to the day of Ditch."

"Urwa b. Zubair reported that he asked 'Aisha about the words of Allah: "If you fear that you will not be able to maintain equity amongst the orphan girls, then marry (those) you like from amongst the women two, three or four." She said: O, the son of my sister, the orphan girl is one who is under the patronage of her guardian and she shares with him in his property and her property and beauty fascinate him and her guardian makes up his mind to marry her without giving her due share of the wedding money and is not prepared (to pay so much amount) which anyone else is prepared to pay and so Allah has forbidden to marry these girls but in case when equity is observed as regards the wedding money and they are prepared to pay them the full amount of the wedding money and Allah commanded to marry other women besides them according to the liking of their heart. 'Urwa reported that 'Aisha said that people began to seek verdict from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) after the revelation of this verse about them (orphan girls) and Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this verse: "They asked thee verdict about women; say: Allah gives verdict to you in regard to them and what is recited to you in the Book about orphan woman, whom you give not what is ordained for them while you like to marry them" (iv. 126). She said: The wording of Allah "what is recited to you" in the Book means the first verse, i.e. "if you fear that you may not be able to observe equity in case of an orphan woman, marry what you like in case of woman" (iv. 3). 'Aisha said: (And as for this verse [iv. 126], i.e. and you intend "to marry one of them from amongst the orphan girls" it pertains to one who is in charge (of orphans) having small amount of wealth and less beauty and they have been forbidden that they should marry what they like of her wealth and beauty out of the orphan girls, but with equity, because of their disliking for them."

"Narrated by Tariq b. Shihab
Tariq b. Shihab reported that a Jew said to 'Umar: You recite a verse which, if it had been revealed in relation to us, we would have taken that day as the day of rejoicing. Thereupon 'Umar said: I know where it was revealed and on the day when it was revealed and where Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had been at that time when it was revealed. It was revealed on the day of 'Arafa (ninth of Dhu'l Hijjah) and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had been staying in 'Arafat. Sufyan said: I doubt, whether it was Friday or not (and the verse referred to) is this: "Today I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favours upon you"

Sahih Muslim | Book 43 | Hadith - IslamicEvents.SG

 

[Samael_Khan]

Exactly about what?

These are Hadiths explaining verses:

"Aisha reported that these words of Allah: "When they came upon you from above you and from below you and when the eyes turned dull and the hearts rose up to the throats" (xxxiii. 10) pertain to the day of Ditch."

"Urwa b. Zubair reported that he asked 'Aisha about the words of Allah: "If you fear that you will not be able to maintain equity amongst the orphan girls, then marry (those) you like from amongst the women two, three or four." She said: O, the son of my sister, the orphan girl is one who is under the patronage of her guardian and she shares with him in his property and her property and beauty fascinate him and her guardian makes up his mind to marry her without giving her due share of the wedding money and is not prepared (to pay so much amount) which anyone else is prepared to pay and so Allah has forbidden to marry these girls but in case when equity is observed as regards the wedding money and they are prepared to pay them the full amount of the wedding money and Allah commanded to marry other women besides them according to the liking of their heart. 'Urwa reported that 'Aisha said that people began to seek verdict from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) after the revelation of this verse about them (orphan girls) and Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this verse: "They asked thee verdict about women; say: Allah gives verdict to you in regard to them and what is recited to you in the Book about orphan woman, whom you give not what is ordained for them while you like to marry them" (iv. 126). She said: The wording of Allah "what is recited to you" in the Book means the first verse, i.e. "if you fear that you may not be able to observe equity in case of an orphan woman, marry what you like in case of woman" (iv. 3). 'Aisha said: (And as for this verse [iv. 126], i.e. and you intend "to marry one of them from amongst the orphan girls" it pertains to one who is in charge (of orphans) having small amount of wealth and less beauty and they have been forbidden that they should marry what they like of her wealth and beauty out of the orphan girls, but with equity, because of their disliking for them."

"Narrated by Tariq b. Shihab
Tariq b. Shihab reported that a Jew said to 'Umar: You recite a verse which, if it had been revealed in relation to us, we would have taken that day as the day of rejoicing. Thereupon 'Umar said: I know where it was revealed and on the day when it was revealed and where Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had been at that time when it was revealed. It was revealed on the day of 'Arafa (ninth of Dhu'l Hijjah) and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had been staying in 'Arafat. Sufyan said: I doubt, whether it was Friday or not (and the verse referred to) is this: "Today I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favours upon you"

Sahih Muslim | Book 43 | Hadith - IslamicEvents.SG

Cool. That makes sense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindu terrorism is definitely a thing.

It will go away soon. It is the flush of victory after being put-down for over half a century by the anti-Hindu Congress government.The miscreants are dealt with according to law. The ruling party does not support it.

"Aisha reported that these words of Allah: "When they came upon you from above you and from below you and when the eyes turned dull and the hearts rose up to the throats" (xxxiii. 10) pertain to the day of Ditch."

"Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 311

I can, but I am not much interested in such kind of debate.

 

[Neutral Name]

Those are referring to Israelites under the law except for Proverbs and maybe Hosea, not Christians. The biblical God isn't a pacifist. He will destroy his creation if he has to. Christianity is more like a period of peace in which they act as "prophets", warning people about the coming destruction. Which is why it currently promotes peace.


It also makes sense that a creator would destroy a defective creation. Much like I would if I created a drawing in my image which looked rubbish.

Does that mean that Christians, Jews and Islamics have the same beliefs?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Does that mean that Christians, Jews and Islamics have the same beliefs?

Well, no they don't.

Jews have changed dramatically in beliefs and practices from old Testament Israel.

Christians believe in the law of the Christ which is written on the heart, therefore they don't have laws to implement. They believe that the judgement will come later during Armageddon. So if their religion isn't true then their belief has no real world consequences in terms of violence. Christianities views used to have real world consequences but they didn't get that from the New Testament.

Islam beliefs though have real world consequences as implementing Sharia is implementing a law, which is why many Islamic countries kill apostates and homosexuals.

Christianity and Islam as a whole have similar beliefs to Judaism, but not similar beliefs to each other.

 

[Neutral Name]

Ahmadiyya is a good example. They are targets of extremists yet do not respond with violence in kind. They are or were the dominate sect in Canada. Now they are having issues with rich conservatives buying up Mosques which introduce ideas such as segregation based on sex.

Thank you, Shad. You are a good person, not giving way to hate.

 

[Md Saifur Rahman]

Fighting for Allah or Islam that means Jihad doesn't means war or kill or harm to other religion etc. Do you know the proper meaning of Jihad??? You should learn quran well. Don't judge anything by your tinny knowledge. Learn quran fully then comment

 

[Neutral Name]

Hindus are no better shall I talk about the "show" Hindus display in California? I don't think you want me to go there. Hindus are no better. I really like how Hindus display their deities in front of motel windows while displaying racist behavior. That's just one encounter.

Wow! I never knew that. I thought Hindus were loving.