The Hamas Argument

[Godobeyer]

question of core values: Do you think groups like Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and Fatah, share your core values?

they had different goal so they had different values .

some are peace/military resistences and some are terrorists .

I do believe these groups when they say they love death more than we love life. To me their actions and charters demonstrate their core values.

I don't see that Israel love the life to citizens in Gaza .

If Israel claim that "Terrorist" killed jews innocents .
Israel army killed more innocents than Hamas .

so the real terrorist is Israel not Hamas .

If we conclude that these groups have radically different core values than ours, that in itself doesn't point to a solution. But that honest appraisal ought to be one of the early steps - no?

as my simple (modest) understanding here

there is two different value :

Nationnalist/religious values VS Humanity Values

I speak about my self , let's suppose that Algerian Army attacked other country civilians, whatever the reason/cause . (some of them they lauch missiles against Algeria)

I will condemned both action of course,(1- lauch missiles against Algeria and 2- Algerian army killing the civilians of other country) , because my humanity value are more degree than my Nationnality (Algerian)

 

[TashaN]

• Defend its civilians.
• Demilitarize and acknowledge Israel's right of self determination.

Last time i checked, Israel is ALREADY a recognized state, unlike Palestine. I thought this argument was supposed to be stated by Palestinians, not Israelis.

 

[Alceste]

Just out of curiosity, Farouk, are you aware that the meaning of those statistics is ambiguous. For instance, they could mean -- as you seem to be suggesting -- that Israel is not taking reasonable measures to avoid civilian causalities. But they could also mean Hamas is succeeding in its efforts to employ civilians as shields. Or they could mean a combination of both things happening. And those three choices do not exhaust the possibilities. So I'm wondering how you "know" that those statistics mean only that Israel is not taking reasonable measures to avoid civilian causalities?

Personally, I think Hamas is most likely getting better and better at the human shield tactic, while the Israelis are possibly not doing all they could to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties -- along with other factors involved in the death count. But that's merely a guess. In the absence of more and better information intellectual honesty does not permit me to think of that guess as anything more substantial than a mere guess.

"human shields " are not a military tactic or strategy. Guerrilla fighters in an asymmetric war nearly always operate from populated areas to avoid being captured or killed by blending in with the crowd. Their aim is not to get civilians killed, but to avoid being killed themselves. Just as the better armed party usually prefers to fight from a great distance to avoid the same fate, knowing full well that civilians will die in huge numbers because of their reluctance to put themselves in danger.

The concept of "human shields " is nothing but PR for enemies who have no qualms about dropping a bomb on a crowd that an enemy may or may not be trying to blend into.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

• Defend its civilians.
• Demilitarize and acknowledge Israel's right of self determination.

Last time i checked, Israel is ALREADY a recognized state, unlike Palestine.

That was a far less than clever response, TashaN.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The concept of "human shields " is nothing but PR ...

 

[dantech]

"human shields " are not a military tactic or strategy. Guerrilla fighters in an asymmetric war nearly always operate from populated areas to avoid being captured or killed by blending in with the crowd. Their aim is not to get civilians killed, but to avoid being killed themselves. Just as the better armed party usually prefers to fight from a great distance to avoid the same fate, knowing full well that civilians will die in huge numbers because of their reluctance to put themselves in danger.

The concept of "human shields " is nothing but PR for enemies who have no qualms about dropping a bomb on a crowd that an enemy may or may not be trying to blend into.

Here... just for you!

1)

Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

2)http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

3)Reporter Admits Seeing Rocket Fired from Gaza Hospital, then Blasts Pro-Israel Media for Quoting Her¨ | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

[TashaN]

Here... just for you!

1)

2)http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

3)Reporter Admits Seeing Rocket Fired from Gaza Hospital, then Blasts Pro-Israel Media for Quoting Her¨ | Video | TheBlaze.com

Now IDF blog became a reliable source?

 

[dantech]

Now IDF blog became a reliable source?

There are pictures there. Unless you could prove they are wrongly translated, or that the pictures are fake, then the source doesn't matter.

Also, i gave multiple answers for this precise reason, but obviously you would dodge them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Interesting Data.

 

[TashaN]

There are pictures there. Unless you could prove they are wrongly translated, or that the pictures are fake, then the source doesn't matter.

Also, i gave multiple answers for this precise reason, but obviously you would dodge them.

I didn't find the part you quoted there.

 

[dantech]

I didn't find the part you quoted there.

That's strange, because when I copy that quote, and paste it into Google, I get this:

Let me google that for you

 

[TashaN]

Interesting Data.

First of all, Times of Israel is not a reliable source. Secondly, killing a civilian man is no different than killing a civilian woman.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's quite ironic how similar this sarcastic post sounds to the constant pro-IDF chatter sincerely offered by many on RF.

And it's actually not at all ironic how similar it sounds to Hamas' actual rhetoric.

 

[Alceste]

EDITED :

very good question .

1- the muslims inside israel (Israeli-arabs) suffered from Racist and distinction .
2- the muslms in West Bank suffered from occupation and murders.
3- the muslims in Gaza suffered from massacres and seige for 9 years .

so there is just 3 different levels of suffering .


that's the Israel army and goverment suppose to answser, NOT Godobeyer

I knew Gaza was in for a very ruthless pounding when Israel pulled out their settlers. One good thing about neutrality is that accurate predictions are much easier to make.

 

[Alceste]

To Luis, Quatermass, Alceste, Godobeyer, One_Answer, et. al.,

A question of core values: Do you think groups like Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and Fatah, share your core values?

I do believe these groups when they say they love death more than we love life. To me their actions and charters demonstrate their core values.

If we conclude that these groups have radically different core values than ours, that in itself doesn't point to a solution. But that honest appraisal ought to be one of the early steps - no?

Like all of humanity, including yourself, they share some of my core values and lack many, many others. That says nothing whatsoever about the comparative value of their lives vs. my own.

 

[icehorse]

Like all of humanity, including yourself, they share some of my core values and lack many, many others. That says nothing whatsoever about the comparative value of their lives vs. my own.

i've never gone anywhere near discussing comparative values of lives, which of course is an abhorrent concept. All lives have equal value, correct?

And, as I'm sure you know, morality and ethics get quite complex when we start considering questions of aggregation...

So for example, you've brought up "asymmetrical" several times. Another way in which the conflict is asymmetrical is in the use of the human shields you claim doesn't exist as a tactic.

Imagine that Israel decided to use human shields against Hamas fighters who emerged from a tunnel into an Israeli neighborhood. What do you imagine Hamas's response would be to Israeli human shields? (Hint: think of Hamas's charter)

 

[Alceste]

Interesting Data.

If this data shows they are generally targeting male civilians in a certain age bracket, doesn't the claim that civilian deaths are unintentional ring slightly false to your ears?

 

[raw_thought]

Why is Israel doing exactly what Hamas wants? Hamas wants Israel to retaliate. That is the strategy of all terrorists, gain your people's support by having your enemy attack your people.
A more intelligent response would be to avoid bombing schools etc.

 

[metis]

If it were only that simple.

 

[Alceste]

i've never gone anywhere near discussing comparative values of lives, which of course is an abhorrent concept. All lives have equal value, correct?

And, as I'm sure you know, morality and ethics get quite complex when we start considering questions of aggregation...

So for example, you've brought up "asymmetrical" several times. Another way in which the conflict is asymmetrical is in the use of the human shields you claim doesn't exist as a tactic.

Imagine that Israel decided to use human shields against Hamas fighters who emerged from a tunnel into an Israeli neighborhood. What do you imagine Hamas's response would be to Israeli human shields? (Hint: think of Hamas's charter)

I think it's important we make an effort to talk about the same thing. Here is some context for you.

Asymmetric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Human shield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will correct myself: many armies including the IDF force civilians to stand in harms way to protect soldiers and military installations. It is both a common strategy and a war crime. It has a specific meaning though, and simply firing a rocket from an urban area is not it. The PR is to call that "the use of human shields," when it is just bog standard asymmetric warfare.