The Hamas Argument

[metis]

I will correct myself: many armies including the IDF force civilians to stand in harms way to protect soldiers and military installations.

Please provide some sort of reputable link for the above absurdity.

 

[farouk]

i've never gone anywhere near discussing comparative values of lives, which of course is an abhorrent concept. All lives have equal value, correct?

And, as I'm sure you know, morality and ethics get quite complex when we start considering questions of aggregation...

So for example, you've brought up "asymmetrical" several times. Another way in which the conflict is asymmetrical is in the use of the human shields you claim doesn't exist as a tactic.

Imagine that Israel decided to use human shields against Hamas fighters who emerged from a tunnel into an Israeli neighborhood. What do you imagine Hamas's response would be to Israeli human shields? (Hint: think of Hamas's charter)

FYI There was an Israeli organisation called "Breaking the Silence" which collected testimony from more than 26 unnamed IDF soldiers who testified that they used Gazans as human shield.Go and read up the Goldstone report and you will understand how a terror illegitimate State operates.

 

[metis]

FYI There was an Israeli organisation called "Breaking the Silence" which collected testimony from more than 26 unnamed IDF soldiers who testified that they used Gazans as human shield.Go and read up the Goldstone report and you will understand how a terror illegitimate State operates.

What you are referring to is when the IDF has had local residents going into homes that may be booby-trapped. The owners of the home could stop them from going in, btw. If they don't, "nice" neighbors.

The bigotry you operate from is very clear in that Hamas targets civilians in Israel, such as the launching of over 50 missiles today alone into Israel against civilian targets-- that's what real terrorism looks like.

 

[LuisDantas]

To Luis, Quatermass, Alceste, Godobeyer, One_Answer, et. al.,

A question of core values: Do you think groups like Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and Fatah, share your core values?

No, not particularly.

I am pretty certain that they are just as human as I am, though. They feel joy, pain and sorrow for very similar reasons, all things told.

And I can think of no personal inherent merit that makes me more deserving of survival or protection than any of their members. I did not choose to be born and raised in a place and time that spared me of their cultural and social circunstances.

I do not want to be slain now. I have every reason to believe I would not want to be slain were I in their places, either.

And who knows how I would behave had I been through their circunstances.

What I do know is that once people began to actually shoot at me without even knowing who I am it would be very difficult indeed to convince me to seek peace.

Therefore, the idea that actual people deserve to be shot or bombed is a very hard sell to me. It is by definition rather destructive and incredibly difficult to heal or compensate.

I do believe these groups when they say they love death more than we love life. To me their actions and charters demonstrate their core values.

You are welcome to give us some sources for those statements for us to consider. I don't particularly expect them to be reliable, though. Soldiers often talk silly things in attempts to scare their enemies.

If we conclude that these groups have radically different core values than ours, that in itself doesn't point to a solution. But that honest appraisal ought to be one of the early steps - no?

Honest appraisals are fundamental, certainly.

And I guess I just don't believe they have sufficiently inhuman core values to make your judgement something I could agree with. But sure, if you have evidence pointing otherwise, let's consider it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why is Israel doing exactly what Hamas wants? Hamas wants Israel to retaliate. That is the strategy of all terrorists, gain your people's support by having your enemy attack your people.
A more intelligent response would be to avoid bombing schools etc.

Pretty good question.

 

[metis]

Therefore, the idea that actual people deserve to be shot or bombed is a very hard sell to me. It is by definition rather destructive and incredibly difficult to heal or compensate.

LD, even though I do disagree with you on some items, nevertheless I do admire both the consistency and morality of your positions. As one whom has spent much time studying dharma, and also one who long has considered Gandhi to be my #1 mentor, I can appreciate where you're coming from.

 

[farouk]

LD, even though I do disagree with you on some items, nevertheless I do admire both the consistency and morality of your positions. As one whom has spent much time studying dharma, and also one who long has considered Gandhi to be my #1 mentor, I can appreciate where you're coming from.

This is a quote from Mahatma Gandhi.
“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home”

Hope you take a lesson from your mentor.A most remarkable and a true gentleman.

 

[xkatz]

This is a quote from Mahatma Gandhi.
“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home”

Hope you take a lesson from your mentor.A most remarkable and a true gentleman.

>Implying Gandhi is infallible

 

[Godobeyer]

Imagine that Israel decided to use human shields against Hamas fighters who emerged from a tunnel into an Israeli neighborhood. What do you imagine Hamas's response would be to Israeli human shields? (Hint: think of Hamas's charter)

EDITED :

@ icehorse

can you please reply to this honestly ?


Imagine that Hamas fighters get inside Israel (inside Israeli town for exemple Tel Aviv), then they used Jews civilians as human shields , would Israeli Army bombing Tel Aviv ?

 

[TashaN]

That's strange, because when I copy that quote, and paste it into Google, I get this:

Let me google that for you

I saw once the entire speech but now i just found a clip translated by israeli institute memri. In no where does he claim that Hamas is using women and children. He is saying that death will not break the will of the Palestinians even if Israel targeted women and children for they see death as a price which need to be paid to achieve freedom.

 

[Alceste]

Please provide some sort of reputable link for the above absurdity.

Wow. I literally JUST posted a link in the very post you quoted. IIRC, Wikipedia cites Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, the UN and Amnesty International as sources making this claim. As a secular humanist and a pacifist with no horse in this race, I personally find all these organizations credible. I expect supporters of the IDF generally consider the IDF much more credible than neutral NGO observers. That's selection bias for you.

Apparently, the more passionate one is about an issue and the more they read about it, the more pronounced their selection bias becomes. Just an interesting fact.

 

[Alceste]

I saw once the entire speech but now i just found a clip translated by israeli institute memri. In no where does he claim that Hamas is using women and children. He is saying that death will not break the will of the Palestinians even if Israel targeted women and children for they see death as a price which need to be paid to achieve freedom.

MEMRI is a very unreliable source, IMO. Trusting them to accurately and fairly translate Arab media is like trusting the CIA to do the same.
Middle East Media Research Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TashaN]

MEMRI is a very unreliable source, IMO. Trusting them to accurately and fairly translate Arab media is like trusting the CIA to do the same.
Middle East Media Research Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Founder and president of memri was a Colonel, IDF Intelligence from 1968–88.

 

[Alceste]

Founder and president of memri was a Colonel, IDF Intelligence from 1968–88.

Exactly. Never trust a spook.

 

[CMike]

Yes, you're wrong. A person is entitled to fundamental human rights regardless of whether they live in a "westernized liberal democracy".


Then figure it out quick. Palestinians are entitled to a nationality just like everyone else, and until such time as they have a Palestinian state, the only nationality available to them is Israeli.

And they have one. It's called Jordan.

 

[CMike]

Wow. I literally JUST posted a link in the very post you quoted. IIRC, Wikipedia cites Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, the UN and Amnesty International as sources making this claim. As a secular humanist and a pacifist with no horse in this race, I personally find all these organizations credible. I expect supporters of the IDF generally consider the IDF much more credible than neutral NGO observers. That's selection bias for you.

Apparently, the more passionate one is about an issue and the more they read about it, the more pronounced their selection bias becomes. Just an interesting fact.

They are extreme left wing organizations and have zero credibility.

 

[Alceste]

They are extreme left wing organizations and have zero credibility.

Lol. What a nice little bubble you've created for yourself there.

 

[metis]

This is a quote from Mahatma Gandhi.
“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home”

Hope you take a lesson from your mentor.A most remarkable and a true gentleman.

I think that it's pretty much common sense that a student (I) doesn't always agree with his mentor (Gandhi) on everything, but ideally we weren't far off even in this area. If you were to read the above in its fullest context, Gandhi believes that all peoples in that area and others should live in mutual tolerance and freedom, which is also why he didn't want India partitioned. If people in the Middle East had obeyed Gandhi's wishes, I would feel that there would have been no need to have an Israel, Jordan, etc. However, people weren't willing to do that, unfortunately.

 

[LuisDantas]

To be fair, insisting on the partition of India was not so much a problem as an indication of the problem.

 

[metis]

Wow. I literally JUST posted a link in the very post you quoted. IIRC, Wikipedia cites Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, the UN and Amnesty International as sources making this claim. As a secular humanist and a pacifist with no horse in this race, I personally find all these organizations credible. I expect supporters of the IDF generally consider the IDF much more credible than neutral NGO observers. That's selection bias for you.

Apparently, the more passionate one is about an issue and the more they read about it, the more pronounced their selection bias becomes. Just an interesting fact.

I have to admit that this was my fault as I misread what you posted, thinking that Israel uses its own population as human shields. Sorry about that.