The Hamas Argument

[metis]

If they have to blow up a bunch of civilians to do it, then probably not.

But then a group like ISIS wins, and then the carnage and oppression really begins. Yes, I have always agreed that trying to avoid civilian deaths is extremely important, and trying to do as such while suppressing an enemy that's attacking your own people is important as well. I don't know of a single country that would likely act as restrained as Israel has, and this was verified recently by a top British commander who stated the Israel has the strongest moral restraint of any country he's ever seen in the modern day.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But then a group like ISIS wins, and then the carnage and oppression really begins. Yes, I have always agreed that trying to avoid civilian deaths is extremely important, and trying to do as such while suppressing an enemy that's attacking your own people is important as well. I don't know of a single country that would likely act as restrained as Israel has, and this was verified recently by a top British commander who stated the Israel has the strongest moral restraint of any country he's ever seen in the modern day.

In 1866-1871, Fenian terrorists operating from the northern US staged a number of raids into Canada, killing a number of Canadians, roughly on the order of the number of Israelis that have been killed in this recent conflict. Despite the fact that it was widely believed that the Fenians were being secretly supported by the US government and were definitely being supported materially and financially by US citizens, Canada/the UK didn't invade the US. We didn't even shell American border towns that the Fenians were using as bases for their attacks.

 

[farouk]

But then a group like ISIS wins, and then the carnage and oppression really begins. Yes, I have always agreed that trying to avoid civilian deaths is extremely important, and trying to do as such while suppressing an enemy that's attacking your own people is important as well. I don't know of a single country that would likely act as restrained as Israel has, and this was verified recently by a top British commander who stated the Israel has the strongest moral restraint of any country he's ever seen in the modern day.

Moral restraint backed by 90% Civilians murdered and 10% militants killed.What a joker......

 

[Flankerl]

So you can argue that it's a fabrication by 'dem ebil palestines'? Let's face it. You're never going to accept anything anyone shows you that paints Israel as the bad guy. You're so far gone down that rabbit hole that even light can't catch up with you. I'd suggest you return to cheering at Bill O'reilly on Youtube or something.

If I had may way I'd force both your countries to disarm.

Dude there was no evidence about this theory in the article. Is that so difficult to understand?

Bill O'Reilly? Do you even understand the quote in my signature? Do you honestly believe that it shows my support to him?

Both my countries?

It's even more sad because the only reason for those numbers is that Israel decided to open/return fire. It's a tragic waste of human life that could have been avoided on both sides if Israel had a clue.

So you just accept his percentages just like that.

Well you sir arent biased at all. Kudos.

... which doesn't necessarily mean that Israel should do nothing. Maybe take other military actions (interdicting Hamas' supply of weapons before it gets into Gaza, for instance), maybe pursue non-violent actions.

And this is the problem with people like you who only turn into this conflict once its on the news.

Israel does that too and it apparently doesnt really work. I still remember the last time we had a thread about a ship full of rockets was intercepted, it was all just a Jew hoax according to quite some people here.

So please go back to clubbing baby seals to death and leave the discussion to people who actually follow the conflict more closely.

Is it also Hamas' responsibility to neutralize threats to citizens of Gaza?

And it does that by shooting rockets far beyond the front. Sounds like the reasonable approach. Nothing wrong here.

 

[dantech]

I didn't say "better for Israel", I just said "better".

Right, and I said better for Israel. Israel is not giving orders to please the rest of the world. Their first and foremost responsibility is Israel.

Because I'm not proposing to kill anyone.

You're also not proposing anything concrete. You only propose things like "non-violence" or "no airstrikes".

You're the one advocating the course of action that kills huge numbers of people. It's up to YOU to demonstrate that it's the right thing to do.

And because you're the one [not] suggesting an alternative solution. It's up to YOU to demonstrate that that alternative would be better than the reality.

If we can't tell whether killing people will make things better, then the moral, ethical thing to do is to not kill people.

... And allow our civilians to be under attack and have their lives threatened on a daily basis, all while spending millions a day in unnecessary expenses.

They are, actually. I'll accept that the Israeli government has a greater responsibility to its own citizens than others, but fundamental respect for human life, wherever it happens to be, is at the core of the morality of any decent person.

Agreed. However, fundamental respect for human lives of my own is greater than the respect I have for the life of others - However selfish that may seem. The only person I'd be willing to die for is my son or wife - certainly not terrorists or the ones who elected them as their leaders.

Except for all the times that we have.

Enlighten me.

They're contraband, not magic. They're physical objects that take people to move them. They're also products that cost a significant amount of money... money that often flows through the banks of Israel's allies. Both of these facts suggest alternatives for stopping them that don't involve blowing up schools.

So now, you define Iran as Israel's allies. Also, it's not like Palestinians are walking through Israel and into Gaza's borders with a rocket launcher on their back. If you hadn't heard they have tunnels that allowed them to pass the borders, unsuspected.

Yes, you are.

Your disregard for non-Israeli lives is clear, yes.

The only thing that is clear is that you haven't understood a thing I said, if that's what you believe. I'll clear it up for you

TO ISRAEL:

Israeli life > 1,000,000 Palestinian lives.

TO PALESTINIANS:

Palestinian life > 1,000,000 Israeli lives.

TO AMERICANS:

1 American life > 1,000,000 [any other] lives.

TO HAMAS:

1 Dead Jew > 1,000,000 Palestinian lives.

 

[Sunstone]

Moral restraint backed by 90% Civilians murdered and 10% militants killed.What a joker......

Just out of curiosity, Farouk, are you aware that the meaning of those statistics is ambiguous. For instance, they could mean -- as you seem to be suggesting -- that Israel is not taking reasonable measures to avoid civilian causalities. But they could also mean Hamas is succeeding in its efforts to employ civilians as shields. Or they could mean a combination of both things happening. And those three choices do not exhaust the possibilities. So I'm wondering how you "know" that those statistics mean only that Israel is not taking reasonable measures to avoid civilian causalities?

Personally, I think Hamas is most likely getting better and better at the human shield tactic, while the Israelis are possibly not doing all they could to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties -- along with other factors involved in the death count. But that's merely a guess. In the absence of more and better information intellectual honesty does not permit me to think of that guess as anything more substantial than a mere guess.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have not read the entire thread yet but from reading couple of pages, it's interesting for me to see how morality is applied in the West and how they view it. I'll keep watching this very interesting thread. I know this thread might not be directly about the topic of morality, but still, seeing all these different views tells me a lot more about a way of thinking more than just an opinion about a certain topic.

You are seeing many takes on morality. LuisD. is providing a Buddhist take and Alceiste too to some extent. Western society is currently a very, very diverse group of moral basis all mixing and striving. We have traces of the divine right of kings, the morality of the greatest good for the greatest number of people, the morality of that which is good in the long term versus short term, morality based upon equality, morality based upon God alone, morality based upon agnosticism and so on. Heating it all up we have this very strange situation in the Middle East but more than that there is a growing acceptance of nihilism, the idea that we are not eternal creatures. There is also the difference between the Gazans and the Israelis. The men of Hamas are not nihilists at all and desire death in war, because they don't believe death is real. The Westerners increasingly do see death as permanent, so to us the deaths of civilians are a shame. Oppositely, some of us don't see it as permanent, so to some of us the politics of war is merely a shadow. Then there are the Israelis, and most people don't know where they stand on the issue of nihilism or their basis for morality. Also there is a lot of false information about that fed to the Gazans. That is another problem with understanding this conflict. It is driven more by confusion than any actual evil intent, although there are some evil intentions with some individuals I'm sure. Anybody can choose to be evil or can become very vicious.

 

[Sabour]

TO HAMAS:

1 Dead Jew > 1,000,000 Palestinian lives.

You reminded me of some one saying that we can forgive Palestines for everything except for making us kill their children.

That is very ridiculous for one to say.

Your comment is not only not true, but silly also.

 

[Godobeyer]

But if it were true, the question becomes this: Why does Israel continue to attack knowing this?

very good Question

Israel continue to attack because : the civilians "identity/race" are Muslims (Arabs).
I mean they were/are NOT JEWS , or westerns .

so they had no human value in Israeli war.

 

[xkatz]

very good Question

Israel continue to attack because : the civilians "identity/race" are Muslims (Arabs).
I mean they were/are NOT JEWS , or westerns .

so they had no human value in Israeli war.

No you're thinking of Hamas' view on attacking Jews for the sake of being Jews. Secondly, if this was solely to kill Arab Muslims then why doesn't Israel kill the 1.5 million Muslims already living in Israel as Israeli citizens (or at least strip them of their rights)?

 

[Godobeyer]

No you're thinking of Hamas. Secondly, if this was solely to kill Arab Muslims then why don't they kill the 1.5 million Muslims already living in Israel as Israeli citizens (or at least strip them of their rights)?

EDITED :

very good question .

1- the muslims inside israel (Israeli-arabs) suffered from Racist and distinction .
2- the muslms in West Bank suffered from occupation and murders.
3- the muslims in Gaza suffered from massacres and seige for 9 years .

so there is just 3 different levels of suffering .


that's the Israel army and goverment suppose to answser, NOT Godobeyer

 

[xkatz]

very good question .

1- the muslims inside israel (Israeli-arabs) suffered from Racist and distinction

Racism is not a policy. Israeli Arabs have full rights and have their own political parties with the right to choose their own leaders. And having personally been to Arab towns in Israel, I can tell you they live pretty decent lives.

2- the muslms in West Bank suffered from occupation and murders
3- the muslims in Gaza suffered from massacres and seige

People on both sides have suffered from the conflict. And it's not like Israel is the only one with a hand in it. Just recently Hamas killed 30 Gazans for speaking out against them. Hamas certainly does not believe in human rights except for Arab Muslims who agree with them.

so there is just 3 different levels of suffering .


why Israel regime treat NOT start yet to slaying 1.5 Muslims inside Israel it's slayed ONLY the Muslims in Gaza and occupated West Bank?

that's the Israel army and goverment suppose to answser, NOT Godobeyer

Nothing but straw mans and red herrings...

 

[metis]

In 1866-1871, Fenian terrorists operating from the northern US staged a number of raids into Canada, killing a number of Canadians, roughly on the order of the number of Israelis that have been killed in this recent conflict. Despite the fact that it was widely believed that the Fenians were being secretly supported by the US government and were definitely being supported materially and financially by US citizens, Canada/the UK didn't invade the US. We didn't even shell American border towns that the Fenians were using as bases for their attacks.

OK, but let me also remind you that when most missiles/rockets have been fired into Israel, the IDF didn't responded either. BTW, there was some conflict between us in Detroit versus Windsor back in the 1800's.

 

[metis]

Moral restraint backed by 90% Civilians murdered and 10% militants killed.What a joker......

And where does Hamas hide and launch its weapons from?

 

[metis]

very good Question

Israel continue to attack because : the civilians "identity/race" are Muslims (Arabs).
I mean they were/are NOT JEWS , or westerns .

so they had no human value in Israeli war.

Nonsense. Roughly 1 & 1/2 Muslems live in Israel, and do you see a line-up of them leaving? On top of them staying, many also join the IDF, even though it's strictly voluntary on their part. And they have representation in the Knesset. Can you name any other Middle Eastern country that has Jews in the highest governmental body?

 

[icehorse]

Can we agree that Palestinians want to have a "state"? Might we also speculate that by this point, most Palestinians are probably sick and tired of Hamas?

As a "state", Palestine would be guilty of several activities (e.g. terrorism), that would allow a UN peacekeeping force to intervene and depose the guilty government (Hamas).

So how about a UN coalition? (I know, I know, it was every kind of horrible in Iraq, but it might be better applied in this case?)

How would the RF, anti-Israel camp view such a UN action?

 

[Godobeyer]

I found an intersting document about racism in Israel , from inside israel .
Israel vs Israel (Part 1)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwXV6CHJwTU

Israel vs Israel (Part 2)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_uaUIZRY_w

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And this is the problem with people like you who only turn into this conflict once its on the news.

Israel does that too and it apparently doesnt really work. I still remember the last time we had a thread about a ship full of rockets was intercepted, it was all just a Jew hoax according to quite some people here.

But not according to me.

So please go back to clubbing baby seals to death and leave the discussion to people who actually follow the conflict more closely.

And it does that by shooting rockets far beyond the front. Sounds like the reasonable approach. Nothing wrong here.

I wasn't talking about what they're currently doing; I want to know what future actions you think would be justified by IDF air strikes in Gaza. What sort of response from Hamas would you consider reasonable?

 

[icehorse]

To Luis, Quatermass, Alceste, Godobeyer, One_Answer, et. al.,

A question of core values: Do you think groups like Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and Fatah, share your core values?

I do believe these groups when they say they love death more than we love life. To me their actions and charters demonstrate their core values.

If we conclude that these groups have radically different core values than ours, that in itself doesn't point to a solution. But that honest appraisal ought to be one of the early steps - no?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I want to know what future actions you think would be justified by IDF air strikes in Gaza. What sort of response from Hamas would you consider reasonable?

• Defend its civilians.
• Demilitarize and acknowledge Israel's right of self determination.