The Holy? Crusades

[Faithfreedom]

Hello everyone,

I would like your opinion about the The "Holy" Crusades.

My opinion:
Christians are suppose to follow Jesus.
Jesus never killed and in fact preached against killing.
So Christians in those crusades were misled.

Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world.
Therefore i take it that there is no such thing as a christian country.
So there is no such thing as a Holy Land i.e Jeruselam.
(What's so holy about it when they crucified my lord there!)

What do you say; Is there such a thing as a christian country in this day and age?

Looking forward to your post is,
Faithfreedom

 

[Politesse]

Of course not. The Crusades were a travesty and a horror, and Christians who try to instigate new ones by trying to turn their countries into authoritarian theocratic regimes led by themselves are paying very little attention to the teachings of the founder of their faith, and instead embracing the selfish, petty tribalism that has dominated human history from the start.

Luckily, not all Christians are obsessed with earthly power and influence. I don't think most are, even.

 

[Mister Emu]

Hmm...

I think the idea of what the crusade was publically supposed to be, the defense of the eastern Roman Empire against invaders, was acceptable. What it actually was, however, was not so in any way.

The brutal massacres are a horrible stain on the history of Christendom, particularly that of the West.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Firstly, thanks Politesse for your comment. I'm of the same opinion.
Secondly, i take opportunity here (for efficiency sake) to thank all who have replied or who are going to reply in future posts.

I think the idea of what the crusade was publically supposed to be, the defense of the eastern Roman Empire against invaders, was acceptable.

(note: bold by me)
But Mister Emu, Jesus preached against killing. In fact, he said "Love your enemies".
For a Crusade to happen, there has to be a political system in place. Christians went wrong (because they didn't follow the Bible) when they become political. Remember, many a time, Jesus's followers tried to make him a political king but he shied away from that. The Jews at that time were looking for a Messiah very much in the mould of King David to rid them of the hated Roman rule. They were expecting a high born prince and could not accept a low born Jesus.

If Jesus wanted to take over the world by force, he could have easily done it. With just a word, he could have struck down all his enemies. Even if he have had needed an army, he could have brought back/healed all his slained soldiers easily.

The brutal massacres are a horrible stain on the history of Christendom, particularly that of the West.

I'm saying that, even if the Crusaders had behaved perfectly, it still wouldn't have had made the Crusades right. Did Jesus ever held a sword in his hand? Had he ever advocated that? On the contrary, he told his follower to put away the sword and he also healed the ear of one of his captors.

Let me ask you, Would our Jesus have led the Crusades?
Look, he knew that John the Baptist was in prison and yet he did nothing to rescue him. (and mind you, we know that he could have easily have made it happen).

So who will defend the Byzantian Empire? The ruler of this world is the Devil. All the glory and splendor of this world is in his hands. He will find others to play that game.

 

[waitasec]

Hello everyone,

I would like your opinion about the The "Holy" Crusades.

My opinion:
Christians are suppose to follow Jesus.
Jesus never killed and in fact preached against killing.
So Christians in those crusades were misled.

Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world.
Therefore i take it that there is no such thing as a christian country.
So there is no such thing as a Holy Land i.e Jeruselam.
(What's so holy about it when they crucified my lord there!)

What do you say; Is there such a thing as a christian country in this day and age?

Looking forward to your post is,
Faithfreedom

well the mythical jesus said the his kingdom was not of this world
that must be from the gospel of john....
18:36
wonder if there are any references to this ideology in the other gospels...

throughout the synoptic gospels the kingdom of heaven was at hand...
because the disciples were still alive, even paul a contemporary of jesus thought christ was coming back within his life time

however, the gospel of john was written after they died and still jesus never came...hmmmm?
"maybe the kingdom of heaven wasn't what they thought it was, it's not here on earth living free from the roman rule but after we die"

 

[Mister Emu]

But Mister Emu, Jesus preached against killing. In fact, he said "Love your enemies".

There is nothing necessarily mutually exclusive about loving and killing. Like a pet that needs to be put down because it is rabid, you still love it, but you have to kill it.

For a Crusade to happen, there has to be a political system in place.

It does not demand it, at least among the Christian population. It only need require that a call go out for the defense of other Christians and that some answer.

Christians went wrong (because they didn't follow the Bible) when they become political.

Hmm... I think it is the duty of Christian to attempt to improve society, and sometimes that means involving yourself in the political system.

If Jesus wanted to take over the world by force, he could have easily done it.

I agree, Jesus did not come to take over the world by force and become a worldly king... He was dealing with far more important matters

Had he ever advocated [holding a sword in your hand]?

Yes, He did. Luke 22:36 "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Let me ask you, Would our Jesus have led the Crusades?

Not as they were... I do not believe He would condemn the idea of defending your neighbor.

 

[Faithfreedom]

well the mythical jesus said the his kingdom was not of this world
that must be from the gospel of john....
18:36
wonder if there are any references to this ideology in the other gospels...

If memory serves (sorry, can't qoute chapter and verse off-hand), Jesus did tell a rich wannabe disciple, "Foxes have dens, birds have nests (not sure about the birds parts tho' but something like that), but the Son of Man have no place to lay his head. This was to tell that guy that there's no place on earth that christians can call Home. Christians are sojourners on earth or just passing through life to our real home on Paradise Earth.

Matthew 6:9 (The Lord's Prayer) Our Father in Heaven.....your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven...."
This means that his kingdom is not yet here. And if it was, God would be the King on earth. (Per JW, Paradise Earth ruled from God's Kingdom in heaven. But let's not split hairs now cos what's the big difference if Earth is an auxiliary part of the kingdom or not.)

2nd Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.
i.e God's kingdom is not on earth but in heaven.

1st Corintians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
ergo, since we're all still alive, the kingdom is no-where on earth

Luke 17:20-21 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 4:5 - 8 The devil led him Jesus up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the workd. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
i.e the kingdoms of this world belongs to Satan. If this is not true, Jesus would have known it and would not have been tempted by a lie. Think of it. Jesus knew that he would be humiliated and crucified. Isn't this an offer he couldn't refuse?

Daniel 2:44 In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end , but it will itself endure for ever.
So, since there has never been a christian country (imo), then the kingdom of God is not on earth yet.

throughout the synoptic gospels the kingdom of heaven was at hand...
because the disciples were still alive, even paul a contemporary of jesus thought christ was coming back within his life time

however, the gospel of john was written after they died and still jesus never came...hmmmm?
"maybe the kingdom of heaven wasn't what they thought it was, it's not here on earth living free from the roman rule but after we die"

You are right, the kingdom of heaven will not come when we are still alive.
But while Christians are journeying through this (Satan's) world, we have a fore-taste of what's to come. We strive to give up hate, anger, jeolousy, etc - all the bad emotions and go for the good. We are suppose to create heaven within us.

 

[bowingtoGod]

I would like to know this too. I am certain that Christians feel the way that those people did the crusades was horrid, but does that mean that all war is bad?

 

[Smoke]

Hmm...

I think the idea of what the crusade was publically supposed to be, the defense of the eastern Roman Empire against invaders, was acceptable. What it actually was, however, was not so in any way.

The brutal massacres are a horrible stain on the history of Christendom, particularly that of the West.

Yes, particularly the West. Eastern Christians remember the Crusades as bitterly as Muslims do.

 

[turntechGodhead]

little did they know, they were culling themselves as well, by fighting

so, since tons of crazy zealots died, the crusades were a good thing!

 

[Faithfreedom]

There is nothing necessarily mutually exclusive about loving and killing. Like a pet that needs to be put down because it is rabid, you still love it, but you have to kill it.

Difference is the crusaders were not euthanizing diseased people.

All men are brothers. Would any sane earthly father (let alone our heavenly one) wish for any of his children to kill another in his name? I think not. Remember, we were made in his image.

It does not demand it, at least among the Christian population. It only need require that a call go out for the defense of other Christians and that some answer.

There is no Jihad in Christianity.

Hmm... I think it is the duty of Christian to attempt to improve society, and sometimes that means involving yourself in the political system.

Yes, its our duty to improve society and we do that best by following Jesus as closely as possible. Did Jesus set up a political system to improve society?

I agree, Jesus did not come to take over the world by force and become a worldly king... He was dealing with far more important matters

Yes, you are right. Important matters of cleansing the heart and soul. Political systems will always be there. The only perfect one is when Jesus literally rules the world. Mean time, no-matter what systems men put up, it will never be perfect because the rootcause of it is that the hearts and souls of people are not cleansed. So, why be involve there. Better to be involved in spreading the good news. "Let the dead take care of the dead". We go wrong when we think that a good political system is the cure.

Yes, He did. Luke 22:36 "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

That was not to be taken literally. Jesus was saying that this time round, spreading the good news would be deadly serious. The dangers would be greater as he won't be physically here. One over zealous disciple misunderstood him and proudly offer Jesus a sword. And Jesus said, "It is enough!". Those who preached after Jesus's death probably did not carry a sword as i do not read of them doing violence.

Not as they were... I do not believe He would condemn the idea of defending your neighbor.

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.
Jesus commands us to flee. (personally, i will only fight when i run out of places to flee)

 

[Faithfreedom]

I would like to know this too. I am certain that Christians feel the way that those people did the crusades was horrid, but does that mean that all war is bad?

Yes, all war is bad.

God created us all. In that sense, he is our father.
No sane father would ever wish for one of his child to kill another.

The majority of christians do not know what the bible teaches about war.
A lot of christians are misled.

 

[Politesse]

God created us all. In that sense, he is our father.
No sane father would ever wish for one of his child to kill another.

"You fathers! Which of you, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a serpent instead? Or if he asks for an egg, would place in his hands a scorpion?"

 

[England my lionheart]

Hello everyone,

I would like your opinion about the The "Holy" Crusades.

The Crusades were a response to the persecution of the Christians of East Jerusalem and an appeal from Alexius I and Muslim expansion.

The Crusades were also a solution to the fighting after the breakdown of the Carolingian empire in Europe between the Knightly classes,Pope Urban II had already asked people to fight for the re conquering of Spain so the Crusades were a logical next step.

My opinion of the Crusades is that they were inevitable,ever since Muslim invaders were repulsed at the battle of Tours 732 and checked the Muslim expansion in Europe a major confrontation with the reward of Jerusalem and land for the Holy See were all that was required for the slaughter that followed and IMO both Islam and Christianity were in the wrong.

My opinion:
Christians are suppose to follow Jesus.
Jesus never killed and in fact preached against killing.
So Christians in those crusades were misled.

Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world.
Therefore i take it that there is no such thing as a christian country.
So there is no such thing as a Holy Land i.e Jeruselam.
(What's so holy about it when they crucified my lord there!)

There is the Vatican which purports to be Christian

What do you say; Is there such a thing as a christian country in this day and age?

Looking forward to your post is,
Faithfreedom

Is there such a thing as a Christian Country now? no,is there such a thing as a Country with Christian influence? i guess it depends who's in office at the time,but i would say yes unfortunately.

 

[Smoke]

Is there such a thing as a Christian Country now? no

What about Vatican City?

 

[England my lionheart]

What about Vatican City?

Yes but i was thinking more along the lines of say the US or UK,the Vatican and the Holy See encompasses a large chunk of geography unfortunately.

 

[Faithfreedom]

What about Vatican City?

The Vatican City is amongst one of the smallest countries of the world.
They have their own stamp, army, etc.

But the influence the Pope wields on the Catholics worldwide is ernormous.
The Pope is considered infallible by the Catholics.

We on the other hand are well aware of the sins comitted by Catholism.
The crusades, the Spanish inquisition, burning Joan of Arc, siding with Hitler, persecuting JWs, selling "indulgences"...

No, the Vatican City is like any other country where people jockey for power, influence and wealth. With lots of members, they wield lots of influence. They are very political indeed in their influence in many countries.

I apologize to Catholics for stepping on their toes. But this is what i think of Catholism. Everybody's religion is personal and precious to them and i realize that they would disagree with me. But its ok to disagree.

 

[Faithfreedom]

little did they know, they were culling themselves as well, by fighting

so, since tons of crazy zealots died, the crusades were a good thing!

No. Killing is a bad thing.

 

[RomCat]

Yes, there are at least two Christian countries
in the world: Vatican City State and Malta.

 

[Mister Emu]

Difference is the crusaders were not euthanizing diseased people.

Point is that love and death are not mutually exclusive.

All men are brothers. Would any sane earthly father (let alone our heavenly one) wish for any of his children to kill another in his name? I think not. Remember, we were made in his image.

God commanded people to kill in the past.

There is no Jihad in Christianity.

I never said there was.

Yes, its our duty to improve society and we do that best by following Jesus as closely as possible. Did Jesus set up a political system to improve society?

No, He did not. He also did not drive a car or use a computer... does that mean Christians should not use them as they improve society? Should we refuse to improve society in a way that is open to us?

Political systems will always be there. The only perfect one is when Jesus literally rules the world. Mean time, no-matter what systems men put up, it will never be perfect because the rootcause of it is that the hearts and souls of people are not cleansed. So, why be involve there.

Why? Because we can make it a better system. Should Christians not have voted to free slaves?

We go wrong when we think that a good political system is the cure.

It is not the cure, but it is better than a bad political system.

personally, i will only fight when i run out of places to flee

Ahh, so you will fight. Thus it is not that violence in defense that is necessarily wrong, but a question of whether or not they did enough to avoid it as long as they could.

What if you knew that some of the people fleeing would die, would you fight to to get them a little more time, and thus a better chance at survival? If you saw a friend's family running but not quite making it, would you fight to give them the opportunity to survive?