The Holy Spirit

[ppp]

Jehovah is a God of justice:

The question cannot be answered by quoting the Bible.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Grown up, worse than their fathers? And? Should we have killed all Germans, including women and kids, after WW2?

You know what your God remind me of? The Godfather. The Mafia boss who kills the kids of his enemies because he is afraid that they might get old and look for vendetta later.

And that, I am afraid, is the moral stature of the divinity you worship.

Really?

Ciao

- viole

Hi Viole. We may never see eye to eye on this. All I can say is Yahweh can look in the future and see things we can't. He can see where a people or person is heading. Had Yahweh not destroyed the civilisation in Noah's time, they would have continued to kill each other, cheat, steal, lie, blaspheme and continue to break Yahweh's Law. When Yahweh's Law is broken, people are hurt. People suffer. Yahweh put an end to the suffering.

I want to remind you that the United States detonated two nuclear weapons over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 and 9 August 1945, respectively. The two bombings killed between 129,000 and 226,000 people, most of whom were civilians, and remain the only use of nuclear weapons in armed conflict. Was it wrong for the U.S to do this? It saved what could have been a long war, dragged on for possibly many years and killing many people, innocent or otherwise, on both sides. Few people in the U.S detested the dropping of those bombs because although people died, people would have died on both sides had those bombs not be dropped.

You have to view Yahweh's role as the Judge of all the earth (Genesis 18:25). He makes judgment. You can hate Yahweh for making those judgments, but, you're not the one who sees and hears all those cries from the suffering that is taking place meanwhile. So before you call Yahweh unjust, consider that He has a duty to His people to act when people transgress His Laws. Yes, Yahweh shows mercy. The Cain civilisation was around for centuries, but eventually Yahweh will judge.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The Father is God in heaven (wherever that may be)
The Holy Ghost is God in the world, and in us
The Son is God perfectly manifested in one man.

Other interpretations may be equally valid.

 

[viole]

Hi Viole. We may never see eye to eye on this. All I can say is Yahweh can look in the future and see things we can't. He can see where a people or person is heading. Had Yahweh not destroyed the civilisation in Noah's time, they would have continued to kill each other, cheat, steal, lie, blaspheme and continue to break Yahweh's Law. When Yahweh's Law is broken, people are hurt. People suffer. Yahweh put an end to the suffering.

That is still not a sufficient justification to kill children. And it is not true that when Yahweh's Law is broken, people are hurt. I come from Sweden, where I would say all Yahweh's Laws are broken. 80% do not believe in a personal God, abortion is allowed, and even encouraged if that means removing genetic diseases from the population. Yet, we are doing great. The only ones hurt are some bigots still believing in Bronze Age tenets. So, your claims collapse after a very first plausibility check.

I want to remind you that the United States detonated two nuclear weapons over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 and 9 August 1945, respectively. The two bombings killed between 129,000 and 226,000 people, most of whom were civilians, and remain the only use of nuclear weapons in armed conflict. Was it wrong for the U.S to do this? It saved what could have been a long war, dragged on for possibly many years and killing many people, innocent or otherwise, on both sides. Few people in the U.S detested the dropping of those bombs because although people died, people would have died on both sides had those bombs not be dropped.

Well, yes. But God is not the United States. God could have saved women, children, and all innocents. For, He is God, isn't He? As an almighty being I am sure He can tune His weapons to cause zero collateral damage. And if He cannot, then He is simply incompetent, and therefore no God.So, again, you are comparing God to human behaviour. Is that part of general Christian apologetics?

You have to view Yahweh's role as the Judge of all the earth (Genesis 18:25). He makes judgment. You can hate Yahweh for making those judgments, but, you're not the one who sees and hears all those cries from the suffering that is taking place meanwhile. So before you call Yahweh unjust, consider that He has a duty to His people to act when people transgress His Laws. Yes, Yahweh shows mercy. The Cain civilisation was around for centuries, but eventually Yahweh will judge.

I don't hate Yahveh, in the same I do not hate Mickey Mouse. I consider the two equally plausible. What I sort of criticise is your apparent readiness to justify the killing of little children. And women. And genocide. And a killing that does not simply involve painless zapping out of existence, but drowning, dashing against wall, etc. Things that would turn the Bible into a rated R book, if it followed the same restrictions of other books of fiction.

But that is what whole Christianity is all about, isn't it? Make up a disease (sin), in order to sell the product that cures it (Jesus). Something at the same level of snake oil business. And if people don't want to be cured, then who cares if they are killed, including their women and children?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Psalm23]

I see the Holy Spirit as God. @Redemptionsong , what are your thoughts on the Holy Spirit? How do you see him?

 

[Link]

I posted this a long time ago:

Salam

There seems to a mental block. Christians believe trinity is clearly described in Gospels, and holy spirit is 1/3 of God or God or a god or a job description of God. As such when Jesus (a) talked about the praised one (which is what Mohammad (s) means) coming after him and him being the holy spirit, the Christians go see it can't be about Mohammad (s), it's about the holy spirit.

Today I am going to challenge this view. Mainly, it's to look at the holy spirit as an occupied position by the chosen and anointed kings from humanity.

John 9:5 FBV
"While I'm here in the world I am the light of the world.”

The context:

As Jesus was passing by, he saw a man born blind. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, why was this man born blind? Was it him who sinned, or was it his parents?”
3Jesus replied, “It wasn't because of the sins of the man or his parents. But so that what God can do may be shown in his life, 4we have to keep on doing the work of the one who sent me as long as it is still daytime. The night is coming when no one can work. 5While I'm here in the world I am the light of the world.”


This shown that night is when light of God is not bright, and when it's bright and everyone is exposed to it, it's called "day".

Jesus (a) then says he is the light of the world. He didn't say just the light of those who he preached to, but the whole world.

Now, if Jesus is the light of the world, then he is the holy spirit as long as he's here:

Guard the truth that was entrusted to you through the Holy Spirit who lives in us.


Jesus being the light of the world is synonymous with the role of the holy spirit lighting the way for the disciples, except the holy spirit is never not on earth while Jesus is only the light when he is on earth.

So the question is who occupies this position before Jesus and after Jesus?

To this, you have to remember the talk of Moses and Elijah:

Luke 9:30 FBV
Two men appeared in brilliant glory. They were Moses and Elijah, and they began to talk with Jesus.

Matthew 17:4 FBV
Peter spoke up, saying to Jesus, “Lord, it's really good to be here. If you want I'll make three shelters—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”


Now those who witnessed Elijah knew he came, but how to prove it to those who did not witness him? For this, Jesus (a) uses philosophy that John (a) is like Elijah (a) and this is to prove Elijah (a) has come.

But how does it prove it. Well they killed John (a) the Baptist and didn't recognize him, and so if Jesus (a) ascends to heaven, it makes sense that one alive from the household of guidance be here on earth, and so this proves the wisdom of why Elijah (a) was kept alive by God.

Now if you look at the description of the praised/one often translated as comforter, it becomes obvious, it's about a person who will come in the open and teach the truth and remind them in the same way Jesus (a) reminded of the truth.

And of course, like all chosen humans, he will occupy the position of the holy spirit and is also the holy spirit just as Jesus (a) was the light of the world so long as he was in this world.

Mohammad (a) was the light of the world so long as he was in the world. Today, the light of the world is the Mahdi (a) and we await his return in public, while he is here on earth, hidden like Elijah (a) was hidden between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (a) but was the light of the world, just as John (a) was the light of the world before Jesus (a) but people didn't recognize him and killed him (John (a)).

The holy spirit is synonymous with position of the leader:

O God,
surely Thou hast confirmed Thy religion in all times
with an Imam whom Thou hast set up
as a guidepost to Thy servants
and a lighthouse in Thy lands,
after his cord has been joined to Thy cord!
Thou hast appointed him the means to Thy good pleasure,
made obeying him obligatory,
cautioned against disobeying him,
and commanded
following his commands,
abandoning his prohibitions,
and that no forward-goer go ahead of him
or back-keeper keep back from him!218
So he is the preservation of the shelter-seekers,
the cave of the faithful,
the handhold of the adherents,
and the radiance of the worlds!

-Du'a of the day of Arafa, Sahifa Sajjadiya

And as one of the subtle miracles of Quran


And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Elyas, all of the righteous. (Quran, in chapter 6)

Elyas (a) (Elijah) is mentioned two times in Quran, and this is one of the places.

Yahya (John) (a) succeeded Zakariya (a), Isa (a) succeeded Yahya (a), and Elyas (a) although before Jesus (a) was born, takes on the position of the holy spirit AFTER Jesus (a) leaves to heaven.

This verse is a miracle, and to understand it, like many verses in Quran, is to understand the essence of Islam

 

[Redemptionsong]

I guess. A scammer gives hope then he takes it
away. The victim has no right to complain.

In this case, there was no scammer. The victims were the people choosing wickedness over righteousness. Does a perpetrator of evil deserve mercy. No, they deserve justice, nothing more.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That's exactly what the unconscious mind does. Through feelings and thoughts that bubble up to your conscious awareness.
Sometimes folks personify it. The unconscious part of their mind. It can be the devil that tempts you or the guardian angel that protects you and leads you away from harm.

We are not consciously aware of the unconscious processes of our mind. So we believe the conscious self is in control. Yet the unconscious mind is the source of all of our feelings which motivates our actions.

Do you believe, through this process, that God can communicate a specific and precise message? Can God dictate his will?

 

[Redemptionsong]

To me, the leader of time is the holy spirit and another name for it is the "the spirit of God's command". It's the position of inward guidance and emanation of God's light and God's power and magnet by which he calls people towards himself. It's the blessed word of God brought to life. So Jesus (a) was an instance of the holy spirit but he was that light of the world so long as he was in this world. Then between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s) it was Elyas (a).

Right now it's Imam Mahdi (a).

It's a connection from the lowest to God and God's greatest sign and image and name and way of God being with all humans.

The leader/holy spirit is the light of all light including the light of those in the darkness.

وَكَذَٰلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا ۚ مَا كُنْتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَٰكِنْ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا نَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ نَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۚ وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ | Thus have We revealed you a Spirit of Our command. You did not know what the Book is, nor what is faith; but rather We made it a light that We may guide by its means whomever We wish of Our servants and surely you guide to a straight path | Ash-Shura : 52

Who is Elyas?

 

[Link]

Who is Elyas?

Elijah (a).

 

[Redemptionsong]

Hi Redemptionsong. Good afternoon. The Holy Spirit is not the angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit is a force that can help us to keep the commandments of Yahweh. One of the reasons why people do not keep the commandments is because they forget, well, John 14:26 says: "But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you." Without Yahweh's Holy Spirit we would be empty inside and we would be lacking a strength that helps us to keeps Yahweh's commandments. Yahweh's Spirit according to Yahshua's account descended upon him as a dove (Matthew 3:16). This is because Yahshua was perfect in law-keeping (Acts 5:32). He had the full extent of the Holy Spirit given to him. As such, the Holy Spirit was so strong it actually took a form which John the Baptist could attest to.

Yahshua promised to send the Holy Spirit to His people once he had ascended. In John 15:25-27 it is called the Spirit of Truth. It is given, with the exception of rare instances, when one is baptised, just as was the case with Yahshua. This is why it's so important for people to desire the truth of the Word of Yahweh. Not to believe anything which is unscriptural because how will the Holy Spirit abide with us if we do? It won't happen. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit that rejoices with the truth, with study, meditation on the Law, with singing spiritual songs, with prayer and good deeds. Most of all the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of love. But it must be fostered through spirituality and law-keeping or else it may depart. 1 Corinthians 13 describes love, but really it is describing the Holy Spirit:

"Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Love never faileth..."

I'm glad you've moved the conversation on a bit! I'm interested to know whether people here have their own experience of the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is a 'force' and not a 'person'? How would you distinguish between the two?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Elijah (a).

Ah!
So you believe that Jesus sent Elijah as a forerunner to Muhammad?

 

[Link]

Ah!
So you believe that Jesus sent Elijah as a forerunner to Muhammad?

I believe Elyas (a) took the position of the holy spirit, till Mohammad (s) came. I believe Elyas (a) was the leader of Mohammad (s) till Mohammad (s) was risen with leadership and Propethood.

Elyas (a) had to have returned if Jesus (a) was going to heaven/sky reality, since, who would be the light and holy spirit during the time before Mohammad (s)?

I believe Elyas (a) commanded him not to read books, and Mohammad (s) trusted his guide/leader.

Simon (a) took outward leadership though, and church was about outward leadership in social guidance, while the spiritual guide was Elyas (A).

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Father is God in heaven (wherever that may be)
The Holy Ghost is God in the world, and in us
The Son is God perfectly manifested in one man.

Other interpretations may be equally valid.

Do you think the Holy Ghost [Spirit] was in the world before the coming of the Son of God?

 

[Audie]

In this case, there was no scammer. The victims were the people choosing wickedness over righteousness. Does a perpetrator of evil deserve mercy. No, they deserve justice, nothing more.

You 100% missed what i am saying.

And i am aware of christian dogma.

As for religious scams- not my topic but you bring it up-
Either they all are scams, or, all but one are.
Do, as they say, the math.

Btw i heard " judge not lest..." is dogma.

Look at your post.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe Elyas (a) took the position of the holy spirit, till Mohammad (s) came. I believe Elyas (a) was the leader of Mohammad (s) till Mohammad (s) was risen with leadership and Propethood.

Elyas (a) had to have returned if Jesus (a) was going to heaven/sky reality, since, who would be the light and holy spirit during the time before Mohammad (s)?

I believe Elyas (a) commanded him not to read books, and Mohammad (s) trusted his guide/leader.

Where exactly was Elijah during this time? Surely, he wasn't a physical presence?

 

[Link]

Where exactly was Elijah during this time? Surely, he wasn't a physical presence?

He was hidden like Imam Mahdi (a) is right now. Meets certain people but not a public known place and residence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God is said to be 'Holy' and 'Spirit'. Is God, therefore, THE Holy Spirit?

Clearly, 'the Holy Spirit' means different things to different faiths. I recently read an article saying that, for Muslims, the Holy Spirit is a reference to the angel Gabriel. Is this accurate?

To a 'trinitarian' Christian, the Holy Spirit is the Father dwelling in his Church.

What do you understand the Holy Spirit to be? Is it a 'person', or a force?

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit receives little air-time on RFs. Time to address this shortcoming.

Tell me what you think.

From what has been offered by Baha'u'llah the Holy Spirit is created of the Most Great Spirit which is God.

The Holy Spirit is the animating force behind creation and the Holy Sprit is the Essence of all the Messengers, that God the Most Great Spirit sends to all peoples, in all of God's creation.

The world's are unlimited, the Messengers are unlimited, the creatures that can know and Love God, are likewise unlimited.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

You 100% missed what i am saying.

And i am aware of christian dogma.

As for religious scams- not my topic but you bring it up-
Either they all are scams, or, all but one are.
Do, as they say, the math.

Btw i heard " judge not lest..." is dogma.

Look at your post.

I'm referring to the flood. What are you talking about?

There is a distinct difference between the justice on offer in the OT, and the mercy on offer in the NT.

 

[Redemptionsong]

From what has been offered by Baha'u'llah the Holy Spirit is created of the Most Great Spirit which is God.

The Holy Spirit is the force behind creation and the Hoky Sprit is the Essence of all the Messengers, that God the Most Great Spirit sends to all peoples, in all of God's creation.

The world's are unlimited, the Messengers are unlimited, the creatures that can know and Love God, are likewise unlimited.

Regards Tony

According to Thessalonians 5:23, a man consists of a body, soul and spirit. The man's spirit does not become holy until a man is 'born again' of God's Holy Spirit. To my understanding, it was the holiness of Spirit that Adam lost through sin.

What do you make of this idea?