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The Holy Spirit

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
God is said to be 'Holy' and 'Spirit'. Is God, therefore, THE Holy Spirit?

Clearly, 'the Holy Spirit' means different things to different faiths. I recently read an article saying that, for Muslims, the Holy Spirit is a reference to the angel Gabriel. Is this accurate?

To a 'trinitarian' Christian, the Holy Spirit is the Father dwelling in his Church.

What do you understand the Holy Spirit to be? Is it a 'person', or a force?

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit receives little air-time on RFs. Time to address this shortcoming.

Tell me what you think.
Hi Redemptionsong. Good afternoon. The Holy Spirit is not the angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit is a force that can help us to keep the commandments of Yahweh. One of the reasons why people do not keep the commandments is because they forget, well, John 14:26 says: "But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you." Without Yahweh's Holy Spirit we would be empty inside and we would be lacking a strength that helps us to keeps Yahweh's commandments. Yahweh's Spirit according to Yahshua's account descended upon him as a dove (Matthew 3:16). This is because Yahshua was perfect in law-keeping (Acts 5:32). He had the full extent of the Holy Spirit given to him. As such, the Holy Spirit was so strong it actually took a form which John the Baptist could attest to.

Yahshua promised to send the Holy Spirit to His people once he had ascended. In John 15:25-27 it is called the Spirit of Truth. It is given, with the exception of rare instances, when one is baptised, just as was the case with Yahshua. This is why it's so important for people to desire the truth of the Word of Yahweh. Not to believe anything which is unscriptural because how will the Holy Spirit abide with us if we do? It won't happen. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit that rejoices with the truth, with study, meditation on the Law, with singing spiritual songs, with prayer and good deeds. Most of all the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of love. But it must be fostered through spirituality and law-keeping or else it may depart. 1 Corinthians 13 describes love, but really it is describing the Holy Spirit:

"Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Love never faileth..."
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Umm.

Have you spoken to God about this terrible injustice?
No. And who says it was an injustice?
Since God is the source of morality, it could be that killing women and children is perfectly justifiable on the moral grounds He set.

It looks horrible to me to drown little children, but that is me. A clueless atheist. I do not claim to be the standard of what is horrible. I just rely in my moral intuitions. Imperfect intuitions that tell me that waterboarding little toddlers to death is sort of morally suboptimal; in all cases.

If Christians think that killing women and children by oxygen deprivation induced by drowning could be righteous, fine with me.

Who am I to judge the giver of your own morality?


Ciao

- viole
 
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Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
God is said to be 'Holy' and 'Spirit'. Is God, therefore, THE Holy Spirit?

Clearly, 'the Holy Spirit' means different things to different faiths. I recently read an article saying that, for Muslims, the Holy Spirit is a reference to the angel Gabriel. Is this accurate?

To a 'trinitarian' Christian, the Holy Spirit is the Father dwelling in his Church.

What do you understand the Holy Spirit to be? Is it a 'person', or a force?

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit receives little air-time on RFs. Time to address this shortcoming.

Tell me what you think.

Greetings Redemptionsong. In the languages the Holy Scriptures were written in the word spirit, in Hebrew ruach, and Greek pneuma, have more than one meaning. They can mean the life force, it could refer to wind or breath, spirit persons, and active force, or holy spirit.

As Jehovah God is a holy God all that he does is holy. He is the source of all energy. This energy is obviously superior than that of our universe, for all things in the physical realm comes from the spirit of the living God, a form of supernatural energy beyond our understanding. That our universe came into existence because of God's power and energy we are told:

“Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.
Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number;
He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,
Not one of them is missing."

-Isaiah 40:26.

God has at his disposal and infinite amount of this energy. If you look at the universe and realize how much energy it must have taken to bring it into existence you can realize, although impossible to comprehend, the vast amounts of energy God has. When God uses his energy to do what he wills it becomes active, thus active force, it is also rightly called holy spirit, as God is holy and thus everything that he does is holy. So the active force, or holy spirit is merely God's dynamic energy in action. It comes from Jehovah God but is not a person. Jehovah is the person the holy spirit is his power in action.

And just like power from a power plant can connect to a city and be used for various functions, to power blenders, or computers, or lights, etc., God can use his active force, or holy spirit for different purposes. He can use it to create or to destroy. There is no power that can resist God's active force. It is the most powerful force in existence as it is the very force of Jehovah God himself.

Jesus said that all sins would be forgiven except the sin against the holy spirit. As the holy spirit is from Jehovah God and does God's holy will, if a person such as the religious leaders of the Jews in his days, knowingly went against the operation of the spirit and thus sinned against it, they were sinning against Jehovah God and thus had no forgiveness left of their sins:

Notice, a member of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish high court and a religious leader of the sect of the Pharisees told Jesus that they knew he came from God and the works he performed were from God (thus they knew Jesus used God's holy spirit to perform his miracles):

"There was a man of the Pharisees named Nic·o·deʹmus, a ruler of the Jews.  This one came to him in the night and said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher, for no one can perform these signs that you perform unless God is with him.”-John 3:1-2.

Notice this acknowledgement that they knew without a doubt who Jesus was. Now notice what they did in public, when Jesus expelled demons by the power of the holy spirit which these religious leaders recognized and knew. That is they understood Jesus was using Jehovah God's power to perform his miracles, that Jesus was a holy man. Look what these religious hypocrites did in public:

"The Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.”-Matthew 12:24.

The publicly sinned against the holy spirit, blaspheming Jesus and saying he was using Satan's power and not that of Jehovah God. Jesus replied this way:

"“For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."-Matthew 12:31-32.

Those religious hypocrites by sinning against the holy spirit not only stumbled those listening to them, up to this day there are Jews that still believe their lies, even though they knew they were sinning and lying against the holy spirit, Jesus warned them that by sinning against the holy spirit they no longer had forgiveness left of sin. That is they were hopeless.

Jesus said we had to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.-Matthew 28:19-20. This means that one would acknowledge Jehovah as Almighty God, acknowledge Jesus Christ, his son, is the way to salvation, and acknowledge the working of Jehovah's holy spirit, or active force in their lives.

So the holy spirit is not a person. It is God's power in action. Jehovah is God. Jesus Christ is his firstborn, the only-begotten, the first and only direct creation by God. So there are two people, Jehovah is a person, he is God, he is Almighty. Jesus is his only-begotten son. He is the only direct creation by God. All other things were created through Jesus and for Jesus. The holy spirit is not a person. It is God's active force.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is from the great Islamic revolution's leader Khomeini (q):

It should be known that the knowledge of the spirituality and the station of perfection of the major prophetic figures and the infallible awliya’ (A) in general, and those of the Seal of the Prophets (S) in particular, is not attainable by means of thought or journey through the ‘horizons and the souls’ (afaq wa anfus; 41:53).

That, because those venerable personages belong to the Divine lights of the Unseen and are the complete manifestation and the manifest signs of Divine glory and beauty, having reached, in the spiritual journey towards God, the ultimate extremity of self-annihilation (fana’ al-dhati) and the ultimacy of ascent, to the point of ‘two bows length or nearer’ (qaba qawsayn aw adna; 53:9), though the latter station belongs [specifically] to the Seal of the Prophets and other wayfarers in their ascension are followers of his sacred being.

Here we do not intend to describe the nature of the journey of that sacred personage and the difference between his spiritual ascent (mi’raj) and the ascents of other prophets and awliya’ (A). For the sake of the present discourse we shall confine ourselves to mentioning one tradition pertaining to their luminosity, for the perception of their luminosity also requires an inner light and a divine gravitation:

الْكَافِي بِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ عِلْمِ العَالِمِ فَقَالَ لِي: يَا جَابِرُ، إنَّ فِي الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَالأَوْصِيَاءِ خَمْسَةَ أَرْوَاحٍ: رُوحَ القُدُسِ وَرُوحَ الإيمَانِ وَرُوحَ الحَيَاةِ وَرُوحَ القُوَّةِ وَرُوحَ الشَّهْوَةِ. فَبِرُوحِ القُدُسِ يَا جَابِرُ عَرَفُوا مَا تَحْتَ العَرْشِ إلَى مَا تَحْتَ الثَّرَى. ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا جَابِرُ إنَّ هَذِهِ الأرْبَعَةِ أَرْوَاحٌ يُصِيبُهَا الحِدْثَانُ إلاّ رُوحَ القُدُسِ فَإنَّهَا لا تَلْهُو وَلا تَلْعَبُ.

[In al-Kafi (al-Kulayni reports) with his isnad from Jabir, from Abu Ja’far (A). Jabir says: I asked him concerning the knowledge of the Knowing One (al-’Alim, i.e. an Imam.) He replied saying, “O Jabir, verily, there are five spirits in the prophets and the awsiya’ the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Faith, the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of Power, and the Spirit of Appetite. By the means of the Holy Spirit, O Jabir, they know everything from the Throne to underneath the earth.” Then he added, “O Jabir, all the four spirits are subject to vicissitudes, but not the Holy Spirit, which does not engage in diversion or play.”11

وَبِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِاللهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ عَنْ قَوْلِ اللهِ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى: ﴿وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا مَا كُنْتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ.﴾ قَالَ: خَلْقٌ مِنْ خَلْقِ اللهِ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى أَعْظَمُ مِنْ جِبْرَئِيلَ وَمِيكَائِيلَ، كَانَ مَعَ رَسُولِ الله صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ يُخْبِرُهُ وَيُسَدِّدُهُ. وَهُوَ مَعَ الأَئِمَّةِ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ صَلَوَاتُ اللهِ عَلَيْهِمْ.

In al-Kafi, al-Kulayni reports with his isnad from Abu Basir that he said: I asked Abu ‘Abd Allah (A) concerning the statement of God, the Blessed and the Exalted, “And thus have We inspired in thee (O Muhammad) a Spirit of Our Command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith’ (42:52).” He replied, “(The Spirit mentioned in the verse) is one of the creatures of God, the Blessed and the Exalted, greater than Gabriel and Michael, that was with the Messenger of God (S) and which used to inform and guide him, and after him it is with the Imams (A).”12

From the first tradition one comes to know that the prophets and the awsiya’ (A) possess a sublime spiritual station which is called the Holy Spirit (ruh al-qudus; lit, ‘the Spirit of Holiness’). By the means of that station they encompass all the particles of the universe epistemically and ontologically (ihateh-ye ‘ilmi qayyumi). In that spirit, there is no negligence, sleep, error, forgetfulness and other vicissitudes associated with contingency or any of the changes and deficiencies pertaining to the realm of mulk.

Rather, it belongs to the world of the immaterial Unseen and the greater Jabarut. From the second tradition, one comes to know that that spirit is perfectly non-material and greater than Gabriel and Michael, who are the greatest inhabitants of the station of proximity of the Jabarut.

Yes, the awliya’, whose natural form (tinah) has been fashioned by God, the Exalted, with the mighty hands of His own Beauty and Majesty, and manifested Himself, in the first manifestation of the Essence (tajalliye dhati-ye awwali), with all the Names, Attributes and the all-inclusive station of Unity (maqam al-ahadiyyat-a jam’) in their perfect mirror, and initiated them into the reality of the Names and the Attributes in the Unseen privacy (khalwatgah al-ghayb) of the Divine Ipseity-the majesty of their glory and beauty is beyond the reach of the aspirations of the gnostics, and the summit of their perfection is beyond access to the gnostic endeavors of the people of the heart. And it is mentioned in a tradition of the Prophet (S):
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
No. And who says it was an injustice?
Since God is the source of morality, it could be that killing women and children is perfectly justifiable on the moral grounds He set.

It looks horrible to me to drown little children, but that is me. A clueless atheist. I do not claim to be the standard of of what is horrible. I just rely in my moral intuitions.

If Christians think that killing women and children by oxygen deprivation induced by drawing is righteous, fine with me.

Do you?

Ciao

- viole
Hi Viole. Good afternoon. I'd like to point your attention to the fact that this year alone (and we are only in February) there has been over 6,000,000 abortions Abortion Statistics - Worldometer and yet you complain about Yahweh destroying the wicked wicked generation of Noah and the Cain civilisation and the children that died in the flood? We know from the ten commandments - Yahweh doesn't hide this fact - that by doing righteousness our children also can be blessed, by doing sin, our children can suffer. This has always been.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
It follows from Genesis 6:17. 'And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under the heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.'
That is just a claim that God did the thing. I asked how does it follow that it is just for god to take a life merely because he gave it?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
That is just a claim that God did the thing. I asked how does it follow that it is just for god to take a life merely because he gave it?

Jehovah has never taken life (which he has bestowed on all living things) without just cause.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi Viole. Good afternoon. I'd like to point your attention to the fact that this year alone (and we are only in February) there has been over 6,000,000 abortions Abortion Statistics - Worldometer and yet you complain about Yahweh destroying the wicked wicked generation of Noah and the Cain civilisation and the children that died in the flood? We know from the ten commandments - Yahweh doesn't hide this fact - that by doing righteousness our children also can be blessed, by doing sin, our children can suffer. This has always been.
OK. So, are you telling me that God is not much worse than humans, when it comes to killing kids?

Could that be that this predilection of killing children we have, as we noticed, is due to us being in His image?

Ciao

- viole
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
OK. So, are you telling me that God is not much worse than humans, when it comes to annihilate life?

Could that be that this predilection of killing children we have, as we noticed, is due to us being in His image?

Ciao

- viole

Actually the depraved practice of child sacrifice hadn't even come into Jehovah's heart:

"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’"-Jeremiah 7:31.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
That does not answer the question.

Jehovah is a God of justice:

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!"

-Deuteronomy 32:4-5.

He created the spirits in heaven, and also his human creation on earth in perfection. He tells us that the wages of sin is death:

From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”-Genesis 2:16-17.

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—."-Romans 5:12.

Prophecy states it this way, that not only is it just but it is righteous for God to repay tribulation to evil people and to bring relief to the righteous by bringing about the wicked's destruction:

"It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."-2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In Quran, "the name of God" and has many manifestations. Quran is an instance of God's Name, but so is Mohammad (s). The holy spirit of Mohammad (s) is what Quran calls to and his holy spirit uses the Quran to teach humans. His Sunnah is also calculated to compliment the Quran and goes together with Quran.

Seeking the help of the chosen leaders and guides, you are seeking help from God's Name and by God's Name if you do that. Just as it's crazy to say I will ask God directly, don't need Quran, it's the same with saying, I don't need Ahlulbayt (a) company on the journey.

The Imam (a) is that connection and connects us to his predecessors as well. The living light and witness with all humans and the caller back to God, God's magnetic pole calling back to God.

The Quran has described the spirit of his command as a light by which he guides whoever he wishes of his creation.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
OK. So, are you telling me that God is not much worse than humans, when it comes to killing kids?

Could that be that this predilection of killing children we have, as we noticed, is due to us being in His image?

Ciao

- viole
Hi Viole. Good day. I'm saying that Yahweh has good reasons when he takes life and when judgment befalls man it is usually for sin. Those children in Noah's time would have grown up, perhaps worse than their fathers. In Noah's time, the earth was filled with violence (Genesis 6:13). The scriptures tell us, Lamech, one descendent of Cain, killed a man for injuring him (Genesis 4:22-24) and no capital punishment seemed to be taken against him. He had the idea that he should get away with it just as Cain did.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Yet you know they exist. What makes the holy spirit less real in the spiritual kingdom? Is it because of it's all-encompassing of all creation nature?
In terms of christianity, the holy spirit is very real. But I think they say only a few things have it? For example, a pagan can't be blessed with it?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In terms of christianity, the holy spirit is very real. But I think they say only a few things have it? For example, a pagan can't be blessed with it?

I don't know what they say. I know Imam is with all things. He is either behind them while they run away from God or in front of them. It's our choice to run away from God's chosen guide or make him in front of us and follow him.

The holy spirit/leader is with all souls, their sacred sword calling them "pick me up, I will defeat the darkness, annul the sorcery, and show you the truth and raise you to a beautiful station with God", but people don't listen, and run away from God's judgment and rather stay dark and defeated. Motionless almost, but the Imam continues to call them, but who will hear his thundering voice and respond?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi Viole. Good day. I'm saying that Yahweh has good reasons when he takes life and when judgment befalls man it is usually for sin. Those children in Noah's time would have grown up, perhaps worse than their fathers. In Noah's time, the earth was filled with violence (Genesis 6:13). The scriptures tell us, Lamech, one descendent of Cain, killed a man for injuring him (Genesis 4:22-24) and no capital punishment seemed to be taken against him. He had the idea that he should get away with it just as Cain did.
Grown up, worse than their fathers? And? Should we have killed all Germans, including women and kids, after WW2, because, perhaps, they might have grown worse than their fathers?

You know what your God reminds me of? The Godfather. The Mafia boss who kills the kids of his enemies because he is afraid that they might get old and look for vendetta later.

And that, I am afraid, is the moral stature of the divinity you worship. Apparently, the giver of your morality.

Really?

Ciao

- viole
 
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