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The Holy Trinity and John 17:3

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Windwalker said:
Except of course for John 1:1, to mention one very obvious. Your "translation" isn't credible, even less credible than the New World Translation.

I thought I should say a little more here.

John 1:1 talks about the Logos - it does NOT say Jesus is the Logos.

Drop down to John 1:14, - and it uses

εσκηνωσεν

To tent/encamp/occupy within.

John 14 Tells us the Logos became encamped/encased within the Messiah Jesus. It does NOT say Jesus is the Logos.

We are told in John 1 that the Logos is God, therefore ONE.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The LOGOS is encased in the Messiah, he is NOT the Logos.


*
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Obviously - bad translations - do not mean the texts actually say what the bad translation do.
But what about those who aren't reading it in a translation but in the original Greek and say it says it in Greek too? That bypasses the bad translation claim, doesn't it?

And it doesn't matter when the virgin birth story was added - just that it was added - and is known to be wrong.
Doesn't matter if it's wrong. It's in the Bible. So, the claim it's not in the Bible is what is in fact blatantly wrong and contradicted by yourself.

My translation is credible.
Explain your sources for your translation? Can you cite examples of where the words are used in the culture of the time, the authors, the contexts, the common uses, and so forth. On what basis do you say it's a valid translation? Which Greek scholars support you? Any?

Jesus claimed to be the awaited Hebrew Messiah, - not a God, Divine person, or trinity member.
But what if the Messiah was the Son of God, which means the incarnation of God? Why isn't that possible? Did Jesus meet the criteria of the Jew's expectations by dying instead of being a military leader? No? So when or how are their expectations supposed the litmus test for what the Messiah is?

Don't you think he would have mentioned something so important?
This whole argument reminds me of what some young people said one time, "If God really exists, then why doesn't he just show himself, write his name on the moon, or something?"
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
*
WOW! I'm being blinded by the sun hitting in my office. LOL! :D

I can't read my screen any longer, so I guess I'll go do some sun worship until it goes down. :cool:

I'll be back later to answer any posts I've missed.

*
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And it doesn't matter when the virgin birth story was added - just that it was added - and is known to be wrong.
You're right. It doesn't matter when it was added. It's still "in the bible." You said it wasn't. But it is. Your argument is WRONG.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have already addressed them.
No. You've ignored them.
The fairy stuff is added in later.
No. It's not "added in later." And even if that were the case, it's still in there, and that was your argument: that Jesus' Divinity wasn't in the bible.
In other words he has to ascend to do his job of Judging the souls in Sheol. Nothing Divine about it.
In Judaic thought, that act constitutes Divinity. You don't understand that, because you don't understand Judaic thought of the period in question.
However the empty tomb and zombies walking around the city is just added fairy crap, - by people whom apparently didn't understand the Messiah roll.
Prove it. Let's see your peer-reviewed, scholastic sources for making that claim. There aren't any, because it just ain't true. They understood the Messiah role enough to expand upon it, which lies well within the understanding and practices of ancient Judaism.
The Hebrew Messiah is a HUMAN through the line of David. What happens to him to fulfill his mission - is from, and by, God. He is not God. Ask a Jew.
He is God. Ask a Christian.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
However - we have a story that obviously comes from the Hebrew awaited Messiah story. It has all the markers, though they have been misunderstood and blown into fairy stories.
Yes, the Jesus Event comes from Judaic messianic stories. But that doesn't mean that those stories have been either "misunderstood" or "blown out of proportion." It means that they have been expanded to include new meanings, which is standard practice in Judaism.
He comes from the Line of David per the story. The story has him going to the grave/Sheol for three days - first to rise from Sheol to JUDGE. The misuse of the Isaiah Immanuel story - tells us they considered him the Messiah. And finally, - Jesus called himself the Messiah. He nowhere called himself God, Divine, trinity, etc.
It's too bad you don't understand the ancient Judaic concept of what constituted Divnity.
Virgin births and walking dead people are just fairy stories added on to a story they no longer understood, - or perhaps for political reasons they needed Jesus to be God.
It's still in the bible, and that was your argument -- that the bible doesn't say Jesus was God. Obviously it does, or you wouldn't be using the "fairy story" fallacy here.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
All of these have already been discusses. You are repeating.
You are repeating as well. I'm repeating because you refuse to adequately refute the fact that all these stories constitute the idea that Jesus was Divine, and that the stories -- regardless of their source -- are in the bible.
That does not compute. Such ideas only come from multi-God cultures.
The ancient Hebrews were originally henotheistic -- not monotheistic. Some of those ideas continued into the monotheistic period, which is why the ancient Jews were so against the idea of resurrection -- it allowed for "other gods," because those resurrected were considered god-men. This is a matter of anthropological criticism of the texts.
We have the Hebrew Messiah story, and these texts added much later, after Jesus was long dead, bungle the story with added fairy crap, and misunderstandings about the roll of Messiah.
Pish-posh! The gospels have little to do with the earlier texts. They may be used as a basis for the gospels, but the gospels are not "misunderstandings" of the Hebrew texts.
In the Messiah story God makes everything happen needed to bring the end and final Judgment. The Messiah is just a human instrument. If God raises him then he is not Divine. And again - any Jew can tell you this. The Messiah is a special awaited HUMAN born from the Line of David.

Joh 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The LOGOS is encased in the Messiah, he is NOT the Logos.
It's too bad you understand neither the Hebrew concept of Divnity, nor the Greek idea of spirit/soul.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
List those verses again!
ἐγὼκαὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν John 10:30
(5.) τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (6.) ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ Philippians 2:5-6
τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ Titus 2:13

I looked up the text in the original.
1) You can't read the original
2) I quoted the original

That Jesus is God, is found nowhere in the NT using the original languages. Only mistranslations.
I don't use translations.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
They fudge meaning of the words to make it appear so. Such as - morphe - being taken out of context (Php 2:5 - 6) and being translated FORM - instead of NATURE - which is the proper translation, as proven by the surrounding text.

I haven't really had the time that this thread would require but skimming a bit and to chime in: this is false

See http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=μορφή&la=greek

You'll note that "nature" is not one of the definitions of morphe. You might also compare this to the lexicon entry for φυσις, which refers to the origin, or the "the natural constitution or form of something as the result of growth". (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=φυσις&la=greek#lexicon)

Although I would also say it's not clear how changing the word from "form" to "nature" would invalidate the conclusion that the passage attributes divinity to Christ.

More generally, It seems to me that your argument begins by taking as a premise that 1st century Jewish monotheism involves an absolute metaphysical commitment in a very particular way, and then rejecting the possibility of readings of New Testament texts which would seem to be at odds with that premise. The problem is that the premise itself is flawed, both in the sense that if you read Jewish literature from the time you'll find that the monotheism is more monarchical than metaphysical, and also in the sense that even beyond the question of the divinity of Christ in the N.T. there are passages that challenge the premise that early Christians held to such a strong form of monotheism regardless.

With regard to monarchical flavor of 1st century Jewish monotheism, here is a short text which gets the flavor, shamelessly stolen from N.T. Wright's Paul and the Faithfulness of God which goes into more detail and cites other texts as well (pp. 619-622)

Lord God, Creator of all things, you are awesome and strong, yet merciful and just. You alone are king and kind; you alone are bountiful, you alone are just and almighty and eternal. (2 Macc. 1:24-25)
The "you alone" repetition is ho monos, that is from the same adjective from which we get the term monotheism, which is a 17th century coinage. This and similar passages don't tell us anything about what God is, but establish a kind of identity in relation to the religious expectations of the Jewish people. "You alone are king" is the essence of this monotheism.

These sorts of considerations have led scholars like Richard Bauckham to consider early Jewish monotheism as centered around the identity of Israel's God, rather than a particular metaphysics, and in so doing to make sense of what it might have meant to early Christians for Jesus to be divine:

"In my view high Christology was possible within a Jewish monotheistic context, not by applying to Jesus a Jewish category of semi-divine intermediary status, but by identifying Jesus directly with the one God of Israel, including Jesus in the unique identity of this one God. I use the term 'unique identity' as the best way of speaking of the uniqueness of God as generally conceived in early Judaism.

The concept of identity is more appropriate, as the principal category for understanding Jewish monotheism, than is that of divine nature. In other words, for Jewish monotheistic belief what was important was who the one God is, rather than what divinity is. We could characterize this early Jewish monotheism as creational monotheism, eschatological monotheism and cultic monotheism.

That God alone - absolutely without advisors or collaborators or assistants or servants - created all other things... That when YHWH fulfils his promises to his people Israel, YHWH will also demonstrate his deity to the nations, establishing his universal kingdom, making his name known universally, becoming known to all as the God Israel has known. This aspect I call eschatological monotheism. Finally, there is also cultic monotheism. Only the sole Creator of all things and the sole Lord over all things should be worshipped, since worship in the Jewish tradition was precisely recognition of this unique identity of the one God.

Early Christology was framed within the familar Jewish framework of creational, eschatological and cultic monotheism. The first Christians developed a christological monotheism with all three of these aspects."

(http://library.word-life.org/subjects/Theology/Pauls Christology of Divine Identity.pdf)
He goes on to discuss various evidence for such a "high Christology" by showing how the N.T. authors applied these creational, eschatological, and cultic ideas about the one God to Jesus himself. Evidence such as the inclusion of Christ in the creation of the cosmos (John 1, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36), in the eschatological concerns of salvation and judgement, and as a proper object of Worship.

It also includes the use of the term κυριος in the Septuagint and NT, and the structure of 1 Cor 8:6 in relation to the Jewish Shema. It's true that the arguments are more complex than offering proof texts, but I think it should be kept in mind that while there are no perfectly straightforward single passages which say "Jesus is God" (and certainly, as you repeat often, not the much later trinitarian conception), nor are there any straightforward passages which declare what God is in any sense. It's the lack of focus on metaphysics which leads to the suggestion above that the category of Jewish monotheism of the time is identity rather than nature.

Beyond those arguments, N.T. Wright develops a view of early Christian Christology based on the Wisdom literature of the 2nd Temple period, which explains what it might mean for Paul or other early Christians to think of Jesus as "being included in the identity of the one God of Israel".

I wrote about some of these texts here: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-jewish-monotheism.174547/page-2#post-4193775 .

Essentially, the personification of the "Wisdom of God" provides a blueprint for how early Christians may have conceived of Christ's divinity.

To sum all of that up, while it's not as simple as citing a single verse, there does seem to be compelling evidence that early Christians attributed a kind of divinity to Christ. The reason the arguments are not that simple is that the categories employed in their thinking are quite a bit different to the ones we are accustomed to, hence the need to shift perspectives from the idea of "what" God is to "who" God is in order to make sense of the Jewish monotheism of the time. All of these considerations are a challenge to your fundamental premise about that monotheism.

I also mentioned that beyond the question of Christology, there are N.T. texts that seem to challenge your premise in another way. Based on your interpretation of Jewish monotheism, you would surely disallow anyone from sharing in the Divinity of the one God, and not just Jesus, and yet that is exactly what the N.T. encourages of all Christians, as is very directly stated in 2 Peter 1:3-4:

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature. (θείας κοινωνοὶ φύσεως)"
I think the problem is your use of monotheism as a premise amounts to a kind of anachronistic eisegesis that prevents you from reading the text in a more historical and critical way.




 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I haven't really had the time that this thread would require but skimming a bit and to chime in: this is false

See http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=μορφή&la=greek

You'll note that "nature" is not one of the definitions of morphe. You might also compare this to the lexicon entry for φυσις, which refers to the origin, or the "the natural constitution or form of something as the result of growth". (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=φυσις&la=greek#lexicon)

Although I would also say it's not clear how changing the word from "form" to "nature" would invalidate the conclusion that the passage attributes divinity to Christ.

More generally, It seems to me that your argument begins by taking as a premise that 1st century Jewish monotheism involves an absolute metaphysical commitment in a very particular way, and then rejecting the possibility of readings of New Testament texts which would seem to be at odds with that premise. The problem is that the premise itself is flawed, both in the sense that if you read Jewish literature from the time you'll find that the monotheism is more monarchical than metaphysical, and also in the sense that even beyond the question of the divinity of Christ in the N.T. there are passages that challenge the premise that early Christians held to such a strong form of monotheism regardless.

With regard to monarchical flavor of 1st century Jewish monotheism, here is a short text which gets the flavor, shamelessly stolen from N.T. Wright's Paul and the Faithfulness of God which goes into more detail and cites other texts as well (pp. 619-622)

Lord God, Creator of all things, you are awesome and strong, yet merciful and just. You alone are king and kind; you alone are bountiful, you alone are just and almighty and eternal. (2 Macc. 1:24-25)
The "you alone" repetition is ho monos, that is from the same adjective from which we get the term monotheism, which is a 17th century coinage. This and similar passages don't tell us anything about what God is, but establish a kind of identity in relation to the religious expectations of the Jewish people. "You alone are king" is the essence of this monotheism.

These sorts of considerations have led scholars like Richard Bauckham to consider early Jewish monotheism as centered around the identity of Israel's God, rather than a particular metaphysics, and in so doing to make sense of what it might have meant to early Christians for Jesus to be divine:

"In my view high Christology was possible within a Jewish monotheistic context, not by applying to Jesus a Jewish category of semi-divine intermediary status, but by identifying Jesus directly with the one God of Israel, including Jesus in the unique identity of this one God. I use the term 'unique identity' as the best way of speaking of the uniqueness of God as generally conceived in early Judaism.

The concept of identity is more appropriate, as the principal category for understanding Jewish monotheism, than is that of divine nature. In other words, for Jewish monotheistic belief what was important was who the one God is, rather than what divinity is. We could characterize this early Jewish monotheism as creational monotheism, eschatological monotheism and cultic monotheism.

That God alone - absolutely without advisors or collaborators or assistants or servants - created all other things... That when YHWH fulfils his promises to his people Israel, YHWH will also demonstrate his deity to the nations, establishing his universal kingdom, making his name known universally, becoming known to all as the God Israel has known. This aspect I call eschatological monotheism. Finally, there is also cultic monotheism. Only the sole Creator of all things and the sole Lord over all things should be worshipped, since worship in the Jewish tradition was precisely recognition of this unique identity of the one God.

Early Christology was framed within the familar Jewish framework of creational, eschatological and cultic monotheism. The first Christians developed a christological monotheism with all three of these aspects."

(http://library.word-life.org/subjects/Theology/Pauls Christology of Divine Identity.pdf)
He goes on to discuss various evidence for such a "high Christology" by showing how the N.T. authors applied these creational, eschatological, and cultic ideas about the one God to Jesus himself. Evidence such as the inclusion of Christ in the creation of the cosmos (John 1, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36), in the eschatological concerns of salvation and judgement, and as a proper object of Worship.

It also includes the use of the term κυριος in the Septuagint and NT, and the structure of 1 Cor 8:6 in relation to the Jewish Shema. It's true that the arguments are more complex than offering proof texts, but I think it should be kept in mind that while there are no perfectly straightforward single passages which say "Jesus is God" (and certainly, as you repeat often, not the much later trinitarian conception), nor are there any straightforward passages which declare what God is in any sense. It's the lack of focus on metaphysics which leads to the suggestion above that the category of Jewish monotheism of the time is identity rather than nature.

Beyond those arguments, N.T. Wright develops a view of early Christian Christology based on the Wisdom literature of the 2nd Temple period, which explains what it might mean for Paul or other early Christians to think of Jesus as "being included in the identity of the one God of Israel".

I wrote about some of these texts here: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-jewish-monotheism.174547/page-2#post-4193775 .

Essentially, the personification of the "Wisdom of God" provides a blueprint for how early Christians may have conceived of Christ's divinity.

To sum all of that up, while it's not as simple as citing a single verse, there does seem to be compelling evidence that early Christians attributed a kind of divinity to Christ. The reason the arguments are not that simple is that the categories employed in their thinking are quite a bit different to the ones we are accustomed to, hence the need to shift perspectives from the idea of "what" God is to "who" God is in order to make sense of the Jewish monotheism of the time. All of these considerations are a challenge to your fundamental premise about that monotheism.

I also mentioned that beyond the question of Christology, there are N.T. texts that seem to challenge your premise in another way. Based on your interpretation of Jewish monotheism, you would surely disallow anyone from sharing in the Divinity of the one God, and not just Jesus, and yet that is exactly what the N.T. encourages of all Christians, as is very directly stated in 2 Peter 1:3-4:

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature. (θείας κοινωνοὶ φύσεως)"
I think the problem is your use of monotheism as a premise amounts to a kind of anachronistic eisegesis that prevents you from reading the text in a more historical and critical way.




I'm just... wow. Incredible post! Thank you. Informative to me.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I haven't really had the time that this thread would require but skimming a bit and to chime in: this is false

See http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=μορφή&la=greek

You'll note that "nature" is not one of the definitions of morphe. You might also compare this to the lexicon entry for φυσις, which refers to the origin, or the "the natural constitution or form of something as the result of growth". (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=φυσις&la=greek#lexicon)
While the LSJ is great (even the outdated free version provided by the Perseus Project), I think it is worth noting that what you state holds true even when we look at the lexicon for NT and early Christian Greek (the BDAG) rather than the more general LSJ:
"μορφή, ῆς, ἡ (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo, Joseph.; Sib. Or. 3, 8; 27) form, outward appearance, shape gener. of bodily form 1 Cl 39:3 (Job 4:16). Of the shape or form of statues (Jos., Vi. 65) Dg 2:3. Of appearances in visions, etc., similar to persons (Callisthenes [IV BC] in Athen. 10, 75p. 452B Λιμὸς ἔχων γυναικὸς μορφήν; Diod. S. 3, 31, 4 ἐν μορφαῖς ἀνθρώπων; Jos., Ant. 5, 213a messenger fr. heaven νεανίσκου μορφῇ): of the church Hv 3, 10, 2; 9; 3, 11, 1; 3, 13, 1; s 9, 1, 1; of the angel of repentance ἡ μ. αὐτοῦ ἠλλοιώθη his appearance had changed m 12, 4, 1. Of Christ (gods ἐν ἀνθρωπίνῃ μορφῇ: Iambl., Vi. Pyth. 6, 30; cf. Philo, Abr. 118) μορφὴν δούλου λαβών he took on the form of a slave Phil 2:7. The risen Christ ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ appeared in a different form Mk 16:12. Of the preëxistent Christ: ἐν μ. θεοῦ ὑπάρχων although he was in the form of God (on μορφὴ θεοῦ cf. Pla., Rep. 2p. 380D; 381B and C; X., Mem. 4, 3, 13; Diog. L. 1, 10 the Egyptians say μὴ εἰδέναι τοῦ θεοῦ μορφήν; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 80; 110; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 190; PGM 7, 563; 13, 272; 584.—Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 357f) Phil 2:6. For lit. s. on ἁρπαγμός and κενόω 1; RPMartin, ET 70, ’59, 183f).—JBehm, TW IV 750-67: μορφή and related words. M-M.*" (italics in original; emphasis added)
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I think she might mean it was not the spirit of truth who called him god. It was a man.
She claims to be agnostic, but comments as an atheist, and does not like the God of the OT as he is male. Therefore, she will not like the God of the NT either, as he is male. She wants a Goddess.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not love making God a male or a female. Creatures are male or female....or sometimes both :D
God is not a creature.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I thought I should say a little more here.

John 1:1 talks about the Logos - it does NOT say Jesus is the Logos.

Drop down to John 1:14, - and it uses

εσκηνωσεν

To tent/encamp/occupy within.

John 14 Tells us the Logos became encamped/encased within the Messiah Jesus. It does NOT say Jesus is the Logos.

We are told in John 1 that the Logos is God, therefore ONE.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The LOGOS is encased in the Messiah, he is NOT the Logos.


*
And yet I and the Father are One. Jh10

And the Word was there at the beginning and the Word was made flesh. Now that can be seen in many ways, but you have to try awfully hard to not see it as Yahshuah.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Obviously - bad translations - do not mean the texts actually say what the bad translation do.

And it doesn't matter when the virgin birth story was added - just that it was added - and is known to be wrong.
The virgin birth was speaking before the world began. Virgin should be translated as "maiden". She adopted.
My translation is credible.

Jesus claimed to be the awaited Hebrew Messiah, - not a God, Divine person, or trinity member. Don't you think he would have mentioned something so important?

*
No he wouldn't. He emptied himself and made himself less not more. It is then up to the Father to enable those he chooses.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I have already addressed them.

The fairy stuff is added in later.

The originals have to have Jesus doing certain things to fulfill the Messiah roll. In other words he has to ascend to do his job of Judging the souls in Sheol. Nothing Divine about it. God makes it happen. However the empty tomb and zombies walking around the city is just added fairy crap, - by people whom apparently didn't understand the Messiah roll.
It was real people, not faries, that walked about. Their resurrection from death was from excommunication.
The Hebrew Messiah is a HUMAN through the line of David. What happens to him to fulfill his mission - is from, and by, God. He is not God. Ask a Jew.

*
And yet he says:

Mat 22:42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him, "The son of David."
Mat 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet'?
Mat 22:45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
Mat 22:46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

Answer that if he is the son of David.
And, asking a Jew is irrelevant. Scripture declares that they are stiffnecked and will not see.
 
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