The Hypocrisy of Christian Denominations

[Riverwolf]

That's where you err! You don't have to follow Paul to be a Christian! That's exactly what you have to do in order to be called a Christian. Without Paul there would be
no Christianity. Paul was the founder of Christianity. You cannot be a Christian if
you don't follow in the footsteps of Paul. And that's what it is to believe Jesus as the Messiah. No, sir! You cannot hold unto those beliefs and still adhere to Judaism.
Therefore, no Jewish Christian or Messianic Jew.

Ben:sorry1:

Why not? Christianity is about Jesus, not Paul. After all, the so-called 'founder' of Christianity is NEVER mentioned in the Gospels. And there are many denominations of Christianity that don't have Paul, such as the Gnostics. Are you saying that Gnostics aren't Christians either?

...Actually, I'm getting ahead of myself. Gnostics, is Paul part of the Gnostic belief? I don't think so, but I'd think he wouldn't be because Paul believed that when Jesus was resurrected he came back fully alive, where there were many Christians in the past, I believe they were Gnostic, who believed that he came back as a ghost and never was human to begin with.

 

[Ben Masada]

Why not? Christianity is about Jesus, not Paul. After all, the so-called 'founder' of Christianity is NEVER mentioned in the Gospels. And there are many denominations of Christianity that don't have Paul, such as the Gnostics. Are you saying that Gnostics aren't Christians either?

...Actually, I'm getting ahead of myself. Gnostics, is Paul part of the Gnostic belief? I don't think so, but I'd think he wouldn't be because Paul believed that when Jesus was resurrected he came back fully alive, where there were many Christians in the past, I believe they were Gnostic, who believed that he came back as a ghost and never was human to begin with.

Christianity is about the Christ of Paul, an abstract entity that Paul brought from the Diaspora as a Hellenistic Jew that he was. Then, he impersonated it with the Jesus of Nazareth for two reasons: First, because he was the postumous head of the Sect of the Nazarenes, a Sect that for the last 30 years had grown to become a Movement of phenomenal size. Paul needed those Synagogues to make churches out of them. The second reason was that his old friend Barnabas, a VIP among the Nazarenes, would make things easier for him.

Gnostics were Chrstians and there is no Christian denomination without Paul. Only the Nazarenes and Jews in general were not Christians. (Acts 11:26)

The so-called resurrection of Jesus was also part of the Christology of Paul. When he showed up in Jerusalem about 30 years after Jesus' death preaching about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, he was almost killed for preaching heresy. The Sect of the Nazarenes was headquartered in Jerusalem and getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism. Obviously, those things about Jesus in the gospel of Paul were not in the agenda of the Apostles. (Acts 9:29)

Ben :slap:

 

[Heneni]

Just wondering ben....paul was persecuting the chrisitians right? So why did he go around killing the very people you say he founded?

 

[Riverwolf]

Christianity is about the Christ of Paul, an abstract entity that Paul brought from the Diaspora as a Hellenistic Jew that he was. Then, he impersonated it with the Jesus of Nazareth for two reasons: First, because he was the postumous head of the Sect of the Nazarenes, a Sect that for the last 30 years had grown to become a Movement of phenomenal size. Paul needed those Synagogues to make churches out of them. The second reason was that his old friend Barnabas, a VIP among the Nazarenes, would make things easier for him.

Gnostics were Chrstians and there is no Christian denomination without Paul. Only the Nazarenes and Jews in general were not Christians. (Acts 11:26)

The so-called resurrection of Jesus was also part of the Christology of Paul. When he showed up in Jerusalem about 30 years after Jesus' death preaching about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, he was almost killed for preaching heresy. The Sect of the Nazarenes was headquartered in Jerusalem and getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism. Obviously, those things about Jesus in the gospel of Paul were not in the agenda of the Apostles. (Acts 9:29)

Ben :slap:

...Riiiiiiight...

Christ of Paul... so Christ was Paul? I read in his letters that Paul was certainly an attention-seeker, but he NEVER once claimed that he was Christ or even speaking for Christ.

He founded a certain sect of Christianity that happened to become the one that dominates the West for the most part. But there were many others, and to say that Jewish law is not part of Christian law is playing Marcion, the man who, in his Christian Bible, banned the entire Jewish Tanakh and only allowed a chopped up version of Luke's gospel and ten of Paul's letters.

Besides, if Judaism and Christianity were separate entities, why is the Jewish Tanakh part of the Christian Bible!? Doesn't that imply that Jewish law and custom still applies? After all, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matt 5:17-18) The Law meaning here the Law of Moses; there wasn't any other Law that I'm aware of in that area.

Besides, if Paul was supposed to be the only one who knew what Christ said and what he was about, why did he not think to write his own Gospel?

 

[Heneni]

Paul writes that he took a break after he had the demascus experience. For something like fourteen years. During that time the other apostels were already doing their 'thing'. What were those apostels teaching if not the same thing as paul? Though paul was sent to the gentiles so his message must have been about god including the gentiles into his family. The other apostels...not sure if it was all of them...remained and spread the gospel to the jews.

 

[Riverwolf]

What were those apostels teaching if not the same thing as paul?

Hang on, let's take a look...

The Apostle John is attributed to a Gospel, an Epistle, and two personal letters. Bartholomew is also attributed to a Gospel, as is Peter. So is James, and Matthiew as well.

So why is Matthiew's Gospel and John's Gospel, Epistle, and two personal letters, the only ones that made it into the canon?

EDIT: Oh! And most of them have their own "Acts" stories. Why is Luke's, a traveling companion to Paul, the only one that made the canon?

EDIT EDIT: Oh yeah. Judas had a Gospel, too. So did Mary Magdalene.

 

[Heneni]

I dont know...but do any of these letters or books actually state clearly and emphatically what the 'gospel' of jesus christ is? There are hints of course.

 

[Riverwolf]

I dont know...but do any of these letters or books actually state clearly and emphatically what the 'gospel' of jesus christ is? There are hints of course.

Honestly, I don't know; I haven't read them myself.

But really, I've read the canonical Gospels, and I still don't really know what the "good news" even is! I don't really see "eternal life" as good news, anyway...

 

[Heneni]

Honestly, I don't know; I haven't read them myself.

But really, I've read the canonical Gospels, and I still don't really know what the "good news" even is! I don't really see "eternal life" as good news, anyway...

I have an idea what the 'good news' is...in a nutshell....god including the gentiles into his family.

However, if i knew that some god came to include me in his family, id be wondering whehter i wanted to be in that family? And where is the catch?

The 'catch' is that they need to believe that jesus was crucified, died and after three days was resurrected from the dead. Else...their faith would be in vain. Thats a tall order for someone who is inclined to look at the graveyard and not seeing anybody EVER manage the same thing.

 

[Riverwolf]

I
The 'catch' is that they need to believe that jesus was crucified, died and after three days was resurrected from the dead. Else...their faith would be in vain. Thats a tall order for someone who is inclined to look at the graveyard and not seeing anybody EVER manage the same thing.

Not to mention a concept that I wholeheartedly disagree with. That concept as far as I'm concerned completely nullifies Jesus' teachings.

 

[DallasApple]

I dont like Paul...I think he was a hog monger..Sure some things are "nice" that he said...but mostly he is a freak...He's a judmental ,sexist doomist freak...He doesnt know his rear end from a door knob....

The problem is everyone thought he did...So they were like "hey Paul what to do" and he was like.....um do this? and they were like PAUL SAID!
PAUL SAID!!!!
PAUL SAID!!!
PAULSAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul said to do this and that!

Paul said!

Love

Dallas

 

[Heneni]

I rather like paul. He had quite a few interesting things to say about the war between the spirit and the flesh. He wasnt without faults, but neither am I. I like the fact that he wasnt necessarily perfect, yet god still used him.

Gives me hope.

 

[Heneni]

Not to mention a concept that I wholeheartedly disagree with. That concept as far as I'm concerned completely nullifies Jesus' teachings.

Jesus said himself that he was going to rise from the dead, so im not sure if you mean that jesus never said he was going to rise from the dead, or whether you feel the teachings of paul, makes the teachings of jesus nul and void.

 

[DallasApple]

I rather like paul. He had quite a few interesting things to say about the war between the spirit and the flesh. He wasnt without faults, but neither am I. I like the fact that he wasnt necessarily perfect, yet god still used him.

Gives me hope.

Im glad you like Paul...just because I dont doesnt mean we cant be friends..

Thats what Paul would say... :flirt:

Love

Dallas

 

[Ben Masada]

I dont like Paul...I think he was a hog monger..Sure some things are "nice" that he said...but mostly he is a freak...He's a judmental ,sexist doomist freak...He doesnt know his rear end from a door knob....

The problem is everyone thought he did...So they were like "hey Paul what to do" and he was like.....um do this? and they were like PAUL SAID!
PAUL SAID!!!!
PAUL SAID!!!
PAULSAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul said to do this and that!

Paul said!

Love

Dallas

Well, we might as well get together and bust his a$$. I never liked that character either.

Ben :sorry1:

 

[Riverwolf]

Jesus said himself that he was going to rise from the dead, so im not sure if you mean that jesus never said he was going to rise from the dead, or whether you feel the teachings of paul, makes the teachings of jesus nul and void.

I don't really think it matters whether or not Jesus died and was resurrected. What matters to me is what he taught; death and resurrection is unimportant compared to his words.

Understand I'm not at all an 'all or none'-ist. There are some things that Paul wrote in his letters that I do agree with. But many of them, such as the idea that if Jesus didn't come back from the dead then faith is worthless, I disagree with.

 

[Heneni]

Jesus taught a lot of good things thats for sure.

The reason our faith would be in vain if jesus did not rise from the dead, is that he didnt accomplish that which he was suppose to do while he was in the belly of the earth. Set us free from the prison of darkness.

If he didnt rise from the dead, it means that he took the sins of the world upon him, then died and remained in the holding place for the dead. But since he died and he did rise from the dead, it means that death did have a hold on him, since the sins of the people who he carried was wiped out by god, thereby making jesus and us innocent before god. If jesus did not rise from the dead, we were not translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light.

Anyway...i guess this is a bit off topic.



heneni

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't really think it matters whether or not Jesus died and was resurrected. What matters to me is what he taught; death and resurrection is unimportant compared to his words.

Understand I'm not at all an 'all or none'-ist. There are some things that Paul wrote in his letters that I do agree with. But many of them, such as the idea that if Jesus didn't come back from the dead then faith is worthless, I disagree with.

You have got some very interesting point in there somewhere, Riverwolf. I agree with you about the priority here: Not to focus on the death or resurrection but on
what Jesus taught. The NT, although 80 percent being about the teachings of Paul,
it does show often and off the idea about the teachings of Jesus.


First of all, Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter according to Matthew 5:17-19, with a slight difference: The fact that he would teach a kind of revival of Judaism in a more spiritual character, although the converts to his ideas would turn out to be staunch defenders of the Law. (Acts 21:20)


Then, in his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the Well of Jacob, he said that Gentiles worshiped what they did not know, while the Jews worshiped what
they know. And that the time had arrived to worship God in spirit because that's what God had always been, pure Spirit. (John 4:22-24) That's a spiritural restoration
of Judaism.


Then, about 30 years after Jesus death, Paul showed up in Jerusalem with a kind of Christology well planned for years, he preached it throughout Jerusalem, and within 15 days only he set the Jews on an uproar to kill him for preaching heresy. It was then that the Nazarenes got him back to Tarsus where belonged.
What was Paul preaching that he almost got killed: That Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and
that he had resurrected. It means that these things about Jesus had all been made up by Paul.

Ben :clap

 

[Heneni]

Once again ben...if paul prosecuted the christians why do you say he was the founder of christianity. Hed be a fool to prosecute the very people he founded.

 

[ChristineES]

How about this?- Paul transformed The Jesus movement from an offshoot of Judaism into it's own separate religion. Most of Paul's teachings were the same as Jesus' but he added a few of his own to make it fit the gentiles. I think.