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The Israel/Palestine Discourse Monopoly

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Whether or not you define 20K dead, (mostly civilians, and about half of that children), as "genocide", it doesn't change the fact that it is still WRONG.

The first objective, in my opinion, is to encourage people to start to identify the propaganda when it is being presented to them and to start filtering out sources which are deeply flawed. One of the ways to do that is from the exaggerated allegations of "genocide". Those who are pushing this sort of rhetoric are misguided and likely uninformed. They are not good sources for information. They should be ignored.

Just as determining genocide based on body count is faulty, determining right/wrong military strategy based on body count is faulty.

In this case, there are two and only two choices, excluding actual indescriminate attacks against Gaza.

1) The current response: Gazans are warned and compelled to leave via threat of air raids and bombing.

2) A ground assault on Gaza: The Gazans are warned in advance, but they know it will not be starting with air raids only soldiers and tanks.

Among those two options, #1 produces far less casualites of the Gazan citizens with the same amount of collateral damage. This is because if the citizens know that a ground assault is coming they will stay and fight. When they do this, Israel will, rightfully, annihilate them. They will still use air strikes causing mass devastation of the region, but this time there will be many more palestinians slaughtered.

On the other hand, with option #1, the ones who choose to stay are in danger, but, they are not gauranteed to die. Israel will try to avoid them, but, they will not allow their presence to interfere with their objective to clear the area of people, munitions, and tunnels which are threatening Israel and eventually the surrounding nations.

The West Bank is, BTW under control of Fatah. If Hamas gets their way, Fatah, the West Bank is probably next on their agenda for hostile take-over. One of the reasons for the multi-national blockade preventing construction materials from going into Gaza is because Hamas viciously attacked the Fatah officials whom the Gazans elected in 2006 ( I think, maybe 2007 ). Yes, it's not just Israel who is blocking materials from entering Gaza. It's the international community.

There's a lot going on here, of which you seem to be unaware. Whatever sources you are using to develop your opinion, they are incomplete. It's similar to what you said about the ICC. You didn't know that the USA isn't a member of the ICC either. Whatever research you're doing, however you're forming your opinions, whatever sources you're using, you're missing half the story or more.

Ultimately, you do not seem to be a good person to judge miilitary strategy. I recall a thread about a month ago where Harel posted a very good article describing why body counts are not useful in judging right/wrong military decisions. In that thread, at that time, your posts indicated you had not read the article provided, and were operating under naive assumptions about what is or is not needed to win a war, what is or is not a proportional response. You were ignoring the information in front of you.

Based on what you have posted above, this has not changed.

If you want to have a discussion about what you think Israel should do instead of what they're doing now, I'm open to having that discussion. But, I think that what you'll find is that any other alternative leads towards more death and more suffering.

In response to the emotional argument " ... most of them are civilians ... half of those are children ... " It really doesn't matter. You don't actually know how many are civilians. If the parents did not evacuate their children, that is the parent's fault for putting them in harm's way. Hamas wants the innocent to be killed. That is part of their strategy. Blaming Hamas for the innocents who are killed makes good sense. And when it comes to the rare cases of infants who cannot leave, the sick and elderly who cannot leave and are caught in the crossfire, they too, would not be in harms's way if it were not for Hamas' actions.

If I'm being completely honest. I think your opposition against israel is not based on facts, but is based on a prejudice against anything labeled "right-wing".
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The first objective, in my opinion, is to encourage people to start to identify the propaganda when it is being presented to them and to start filtering out sources which are deeply flawed. One of the ways to do that is from the exaggerated allegations of "genocide". Those who are pushing this sort of rhetoric are misguided and likely uninformed. They are not good sources for information. They should be ignored.

Just as determining genocide based on body count is faulty, determining right/wrong military strategy based on body count is faulty.

In this case, there are two and only two choices, excluding actual indescriminate attacks against Gaza.

1) The current response: Gazans are warned and compelled to leave via threat of air raids and bombing.

2) A ground assault on Gaza: The Gazans are warned in advance, but they know it will not be starting with air raids only soldiers and tanks.

Among those two options, #1 produces far less casualites of the Gazan citizens with the same amount of collateral damage. This is because if the citizens know that a ground assault is coming they will stay and fight. When they do this, Israel will, rightfully, annihilate them. They will still use air strikes causing mass devastation of the region, but this time there will be many more palestinians slaughtered.

On the other hand, with option #1, the ones who choose to stay are in danger, but, they are not gauranteed to die. Israel will try to avoid them, but, they will not allow their presence to interfere with their objective to clear the area of people, munitions, and tunnels which are threatening Israel and eventually the surrounding nations.

The West Bank is, BTW under control of Fatah. If Hamas gets their way, Fatah, the West Bank is probably next on their agenda for hostile tack-over. One of the reasons for the multi-national blockade preventing construction materials from going into Gaza is because Hamas viciously attackeed the Fatah offficials whom the Gazans elected in 2006 ( I think, maybe 2007 ). Yes, it's not just Israel who is blocking materials from entering Gaza. It's the international community.

There's alot going on here, of which you seem to be unaware. Whatever sources you are using to develop your opinion, they are incomplete. It's similar to what you said about the ICC. You didn't know that the USA isn't a membber of the ICC either. Whatever research you're doing, however you're forming your opinions, whatever sources you're using, you're missing half the story or more.

Ultimately, you do not seem to be a good person to judge miilitary strategy. I recall a thread about a month ago where Harel posted a very good article describing why body counts are not useful is judging right/wrong military decisions. In that thread at that time, your posts indicateed you had not read the article provided were operating under naive assumptions about what is or is not needed to win a war, what is or is not an proportional response. You were ignoring the information in front of you.

Based on what you have posted above, this has not changed.

If you want to have a discussion about what you think Israel should do instead of what they're doing now, I'm open to having that discussion. But, I think that what you'll find is that any other alternative leads towards more death and more suffering.

In response to the emotional argument " ... most of them are civilians ... half of those are children ... " It really doesn't matter. You don't actually know how many are civilians. If the parents did not evacuate their children, that is the parent's fault for putting them in harm's way. Hamas wants the innoocent to be killed. That is part of their strategy. Blaming Hamas for the innocents who are killed makes good sense. And when it comes to the rare cases of infants who cannot leave, the sick and elderly who cannnto leave and are caught in the crossfire, they too, would not be in harms's way if it were not for Hamas' actions.
Very disappointing and disheartening to see you go out of your way to justify and excuse bombing whole neighborhoods, hospitals, schools and killing civilians by the thousands. I honestly thought you were better than this. Guess not. No, there is no excuse or justfication. It is the IDF who killed all those people. They are the much more powerful party in this equation, backed and supplied by the most powerful country in the world. Are you saying that they are so inept that Hamas is leading them by the nose? They could have handled this all number of ways. But no. They decided to slaughter civilians en masse, and have drawn the ire of the world for it. Yeah, keep telling yourself that all those thousands of kids being blown to pieces was worth it. Using white phosphorus on civilians, too. If you truly believe that, you're a monster.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If Israel had attacked the other nations, and if Israel had lost, then the land aquired by the other nations as a result of the winning the war is how wars work.
Spluh.
Is there some advocacy between those lines?
The evidence shows that a large majority of nakbah fled as a result of a palestinian-propaganda-backfire.
According to Israeli propaganda.
There is evidence of a small amount of palestinians who were evicted prior to the Deir Yassin propaganda fiasco.

Many palestinain villages wwere seized as part of the armstice agreement which was supposed to conclude the war of independence.
Ie, Jews & Christians stole it from Muslims,
whose rights didn't & don't matter.
You don't know jewish values, Rev.
I observe what many Jews I've known advocate,
what they tolerate, & how they act.
I hold very different values from most of them
(& Christians & Muslims).
Your opinions, not only about Judaism, but also about this current war against Hamas are shallow, simple-minded and ignorant.
Says the guy who defends war crimes, apartheid,
theft, & generally human rights violations of
Muslims.
Based on your previous posts, you seem to be holding a grudge against imaginary jewish lawyers, bankers, and jewish elites in power structures from which you are excluded.
I notice that you don't quote any posts
to support your claim. It's invented.
This conflict has given you an opportunity to validate and express these negative judgements and stereoptypes to anyone who will listen.
This conflict is about this conflict.
I'm sure that many Christians & Jews loathe
hearing their evils criticized. And so their
response is the ever recurring "anti-semite!".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
3) Prevent Gaza from becoming what it is: a place where the worst of the worst rise to power
Fueled by hatred & paranoia, Israel pursues
vengeance against Muslims throughout its
entire history, claimnig self defense, & to
prevent terrorist opposition. But its brutal
destructive tactics repeatedly inspire
"the worst of the worst to rise to power".
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
No, killing 20,000 in this case out of 2,000,000 is not genocide. Genocide is an intention. The intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. What's happening right now is not a "final solution" for the Palenstinian problem. The battle plan has been declared:

1) Get back the hostages
2) Eliminate Hamas
3) Prevent Gaza from becoming what it is: a place where the worst of the worst rise to power

Counting bodies is not what constitutes genocide nor war crimes, brother. Hamas has put Israel is an impossible position, but, they are doing the right thing. It a situation where it needs to get worse before it can get better.



It's not denial. I'm grateful for any information and very willing to look at facts. But, I do filter out sources which are consistently misleading or incomplete in their coverage.
Ah killing 16000 innocent not intention.Give me your mind for a while to see how you think and feel about Palestinians.
Really you not denial, continue and said i am not pro Israel too.
Israel is apartheid terrorist state is fact Mr super denial man.

 

Orbit

I'm a planet
The first objective, in my opinion, is to encourage people to start to identify the propaganda when it is being presented to them and to start filtering out sources which are deeply flawed. One of the ways to do that is from the exaggerated allegations of "genocide". Those who are pushing this sort of rhetoric are misguided and likely uninformed. They are not good sources for information. They should be ignored.

Just as determining genocide based on body count is faulty, determining right/wrong military strategy based on body count is faulty.

In this case, there are two and only two choices, excluding actual indescriminate attacks against Gaza.

1) The current response: Gazans are warned and compelled to leave via threat of air raids and bombing.

2) A ground assault on Gaza: The Gazans are warned in advance, but they know it will not be starting with air raids only soldiers and tanks.

Among those two options, #1 produces far less casualites of the Gazan citizens with the same amount of collateral damage. This is because if the citizens know that a ground assault is coming they will stay and fight. When they do this, Israel will, rightfully, annihilate them. They will still use air strikes causing mass devastation of the region, but this time there will be many more palestinians slaughtered.

On the other hand, with option #1, the ones who choose to stay are in danger, but, they are not gauranteed to die. Israel will try to avoid them, but, they will not allow their presence to interfere with their objective to clear the area of people, munitions, and tunnels which are threatening Israel and eventually the surrounding nations.

The West Bank is, BTW under control of Fatah. If Hamas gets their way, Fatah, the West Bank is probably next on their agenda for hostile take-over. One of the reasons for the multi-national blockade preventing construction materials from going into Gaza is because Hamas viciously attacked the Fatah officials whom the Gazans elected in 2006 ( I think, maybe 2007 ). Yes, it's not just Israel who is blocking materials from entering Gaza. It's the international community.

There's a lot going on here, of which you seem to be unaware. Whatever sources you are using to develop your opinion, they are incomplete. It's similar to what you said about the ICC. You didn't know that the USA isn't a member of the ICC either. Whatever research you're doing, however you're forming your opinions, whatever sources you're using, you're missing half the story or more.

Ultimately, you do not seem to be a good person to judge miilitary strategy. I recall a thread about a month ago where Harel posted a very good article describing why body counts are not useful in judging right/wrong military decisions. In that thread, at that time, your posts indicated you had not read the article provided, and were operating under naive assumptions about what is or is not needed to win a war, what is or is not a proportional response. You were ignoring the information in front of you.

Based on what you have posted above, this has not changed.

If you want to have a discussion about what you think Israel should do instead of what they're doing now, I'm open to having that discussion. But, I think that what you'll find is that any other alternative leads towards more death and more suffering.

In response to the emotional argument " ... most of them are civilians ... half of those are children ... " It really doesn't matter. You don't actually know how many are civilians. If the parents did not evacuate their children, that is the parent's fault for putting them in harm's way. Hamas wants the innocent to be killed. That is part of their strategy. Blaming Hamas for the innocents who are killed makes good sense. And when it comes to the rare cases of infants who cannot leave, the sick and elderly who cannot leave and are caught in the crossfire, they too, would not be in harms's way if it were not for Hamas' actions.

If I'm being completely honest. I think your opposition against israel is not based on facts, but is based on a prejudice against anything labeled "right-wing".
We have very different perspectives and assumptions about this issue. It's probably not worthwhile going over them here. You have no idea what my sources are, or if they are incomplete, but you sure are comfortable making assumptions about them. Your additional assumptions about my "prejudices" are conjured out of thin air.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Orbit , @Godobeyer , @Saint Frankenstein -

Your issues with the IDF appear to exist in a vacuum, as if there is no meaningful history from which to view recent events in this war.

War is not like that. You must zoom out and see this situation from a larger and longer perspective if you want your opinions to carry any weight.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
@Orbit , @Godobeyer , @Saint Frankenstein -

Your issues with the IDF appear to exist in a vacuum, as if there is no meaningful history from which to view recent events in this war.

War is not like that. You must zoom out and see this situation from a larger and longer perspective if you want your opinions to carry any weight.
It's because we're talking about current events - duh! You can take it all the way back to biblical times for "context" for all I care, it doesn't change a thing.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
@Orbit , @Godobeyer , @Saint Frankenstein -

Your issues with the IDF appear to exist in a vacuum, as if there is no meaningful history from which to view recent events in this war.

War is not like that. You must zoom out and see this situation from a larger and longer perspective if you want your opinions to carry any weight.
Its a war Israel army VS civilians Palestinians .
Your justify for large casualty civilians cos it's war, ridiculous.

I believe if group of Hamas was in town in NY or Tel Aviv. The respond of IDF would be different because civilians are not Arabs.

Be careful every word or post is had it's butter fly effect.
For me anyone support Israel or justify it crimes. The palestinians blood in his/her hands.

If about way you religion, that religion is racist evil teaching.
If about lack humanity sense, check psychology to waken humanity sense.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
@Orbit , @Godobeyer , @Saint Frankenstein -

Your issues with the IDF appear to exist in a vacuum, as if there is no meaningful history from which to view recent events in this war.

War is not like that. You must zoom out and see this situation from a larger and longer perspective if you want your opinions to carry any weight.
I have been looking at the history for nigh on three months now. I have posted about it extensively. I don't know where you get your "impressions" from.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
@Orbit , @Godobeyer , @Saint Frankenstein -

Your issues with the IDF appear to exist in a vacuum, as if there is no meaningful history from which to view recent events in this war.

War is not like that. You must zoom out and see this situation from a larger and longer perspective if you want your opinions to carry any weight.
I have an impression,even if IDF bomb Gaza by nuclear the pro Israel would justify for it.
The real problem all about racist and some evil Talmud teaching. Which consider non jews as human animals.

This war story about refugees welcomed,then they "refugees" take control over the resident people of land,by displacement or occupation, or killing,
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Its a war Israel army VS civilians Palestinians .
Your justify for large casualty civilians cos it's war, ridiculous.

I believe if group of Hamas was in town in NY or Tel Aviv. The respond of IDF would be different because civilians are not Arabs.

Be careful every word or post is had it's butter fly effect.
For me anyone support Israel or justify it crimes. The palestinians blood in his/her hands.

If about way you religion, that religion is racist evil teaching.
If about lack humanity sense, check psychology to waken humanity sense.

I'm not justifying anything. I'm asking.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It's because we're talking about current events - duh! You can take it all the way back to biblical times for "context" for all I care, it doesn't change a thing.

Context matters.

Something like 10,000 or 20,000 French civilians were killed as a result of D-Day. Were the Allies wrong to launch D-Day? Someone enters your house with a gun and threatens to kill you, and you fight this person, and the gun goes off and the intruder is shot dead by you. Does the context matter, or do you just go to prison for life?

And thousands more examples like that, all through life.

Context matters.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Context matters.

Something like 10,000 or 20,000 French civilians were killed as a result of D-Day. Were the Allies wrong to launch D-Day? Someone enters your house with a gun and threatens to kill you, and you fight this person, and the gun goes off and the intruder is shot dead by you. Does the context matter, or do you just go to prison for life?

And thousands more examples like that, all through life.

Context matters.
That's not a good analogy. It's more like some Jews breaking out of the Warsaw ghetto and killing some Germans and taking some hostages at bases and in settlements around the ghetto, and the Nazis respond by bombing the ghetto in fighter jets.

Or like if England had bombed Belfast due to the IRA.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
That's not a good analogy. It's more like some Jews breaking out of the Warsaw ghetto and killing some Germans and taking some hostages at bases and in settlements around the ghetto, and the Nazis respond by bombing the ghetto in fighter jets.

Or like if England had bombed Belfast due to the IRA.

Sounds like you're roughly equating the IDF with Nazis?
 
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