The Israel/Palestine Discourse Monopoly

[Revoltingest]

If the shoe fits.

There is indeed a parallel between Nazis'
demonization of Jews as a threat, & Israel's
doing the same to Palestinians.
Of course, there's the matter of degree,
ie, Nazis were far worse.

 

[icehorse]

There is indeed a parallel between Nazis'
demonization of Jews as a threat, & Israel's
doing the same to Palestinians.
Of course, there's the matter of degree,
ie, Nazis were far worse.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's your context?

 

[libre]

Sounds like you're roughly equating the IDF with Nazis?

Norman Finkelstein drew a similar comparison in his interview with Piers Morgan. I believe the below from Finkelstein is a more grounded argument than those who would use antisemitism in the Arab world to deny Palestinians the right to self determination.

​

I once asked my late mother, I said to her: what was your feeling when you heard that the German cities were being terror bombed during World War II? The carpet bombing of the german cities targeting civilians, what was your feeling?​

​

and my mothers response to me was quote 'our feeling was if we're going to die, we're going to take some of them with us'. ​

​

Now that's not the most morally elevated statement. I agree and I do wish my mother and my father had a heightened sensitivity to German civilian life. I suppose I would wish it but I will tell you Peirs since the last day of my parents life it was unthinkable that they would have a kind word to say about Germans and it was unthinkable that I would ever quarrel with them on that point. I accepted that given their life experience they had the right to hate the people who destroyed their lives, and the people of Gaza have the right to hate the people who destroyed their lives.​

 

[icehorse]

Norman Finkelstein drew a similar comparison in his interview with Piers Morgan. I believe the below from Finkelstein is a more grounded argument than those who would use antisemitism in the Arab world to deny Palestinians the right to self determination.

Can you expand on this idea of self determination for Palestinians? Specifically, I'm curious to know why it would appear that it falls solely on the shoulders of Israel to make this happen? Why can't Jordan and Egypt donate some land to create a Palestinian homeland?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why can't Jordan and Egypt donate some land to create a Palestinian homeland?

Because that's not their homeland! Palestine is! Why don't the Zionist settlers, who almost all Israelis either are or descend from, go back to their homelands? Almost no Jew in Israel is actually from that land; they and/or recently moved there in the past century or so, when the Zionist project picked up. Why do they have more of a right to be there over people whose families have been there for centuries? Palestinians are the people who never left. Why should they be forced out?

 

[icehorse]

Because that's not their homeland! Palestine is! Why don't the Zionist settlers, who almost all Israelis either are or descend from, go back to their homelands? Almost no Jew in Israel is actually from that land; they and/or recently moved there in the past century or so, when the Zionist project picked up. Why do they have more of a right to be there over people whose families have been there for centuries? Palestinians are the people who never left. Why should they be forced out?

I'm sorry, but I think your history is just factually incorrect on many counts.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm sorry, but I think your history is just factually incorrect on many counts.

I don't care what you think. Show it.

 

[Orbit]

I'm sorry, but I think your history is just factually incorrect on many counts.

You can’t be serious.

 

[icehorse]

Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

 

[Orbit]

Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

The amount of research that I have done on this in the past three months is staggering and you post a wiki page, as if no one has seen it?

 

[InChrist]

Hi there,

I am interested in hearing peoples motivation behind discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Why is it popular in discourse and what motivates people to support either side, often with such emotional investment, especially if they are not Israeli or Palestinian?

And why do people focus on this often prioritising iy over other conflicts around the world? An example is the conflict in DRC which is an insane humanitarian crisis with a long history, yet the plight of these people are relatively neglected:

DR Congo: An unprecedented crisis goes ignored

Recent months have brought a dramatic deterioration in the situation in eastern DR Congo, where countless civilians are attacked with impunity. Extreme levels of violence, hunger, and displacement ...

www.nrc.no

I think there is so much attention surrounding Israel and surrounding area because ultimately there is a spiritual battle going on between the Creator God and Satan, with Jerusalem as the focal point. Satan’s continuous goal throughout history has been to destroy Israel/the Jews and stir -up hatred against them in an attempt to thwart God’s purposes.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think there is so much attention surrounding Israel and surrounding area because ultimately there is a spiritual battle going on between the Creator God and Satan, with Jerusalem as the focal point. Satan’s continuous goal throughout history has been to destroy Israel/the Jews and stir -up hatred against them in an attempt to thwart God’s purposes.

To me this sounds strange from the standpoint of my christian background.

I doubt it has something to do with Israel being Gods people because the according to Deuteronomy 28 (if my memory serves me well) God himself exiled them from the land because they disobeyed him. Also a lot of religious Jews don't believe that Jews should return to the land. And the land is secularist from my understanding, so they certainly arent his people.

Also, according to Romans, there is no Jew nor Greek. All christians are gods people and he has rejected Jews as his only people. It isnt the blood that makes one pary of Gods people ( as is shown even in the OT) but the belief, and in order to be Gods people one has to believe that Jesus died for your sins.

So then, how do Jews being in Israel, have anything to do with Gods purpose from a Christian standpoint? It makes no sense to me. And it becomes even weirder when this believe makes anti semitic christians Zionists, which is like a wolf in sheeps clothing for Jews (I am not implying that you are one of these).

Like why would Satan care about genetic jews at all when those he must focus on are spiritual jews who are the christians fron around the world?

 

[InChrist]

To me this sounds strange from the standpoint of my christian background.

I doubt it has something to do with Israel being Gods people because the according to Deuteronomy 28 (if my memory serves me well) God himself exiled them from the land because they disobeyed him. Also a lot of religious Jews don't believe that Jews should return to the land. And the land is secularist from my understanding, so they certainly arent his people.

Also, according to Romans, there is no Jew nor Greek. All christians are gods people and he has rejected Jews as his only people. It isnt the blood that makes one pary of Gods people ( as is shown even in the OT) but the belief, and in order to be Gods people one has to believe that Jesus died for your sins.

So then, how do Jews being in Israel, have anything to do with Gods purpose from a Christian standpoint? It makes no sense to me. And it becomes even weirder when this believe makes anti semitic christians Zionists, which is like a wolf in sheeps clothing for Jews (I am not implying that you are one of these).

Like why would Satan care about genetic jews at all when those he must focus on are spiritual jews who are the christians fron around the world?

As Paul states in Romans 11, God is not finished with the Jewish people/Israel, nor has He rejected them…

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew….


And in Jeremiah it I stated that God will never cast Israel away…

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:35-37


In the church there is no Jew or Greek, etc., as all are one in Christ. This does not eliminate God purpose and plan for Israel.

Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

Before the cross of Christ, mankind was divided into two groups: Jews and Gentiles. The Old and New Testaments both make very clear what caused this distinction. It was the covenants God had made with

www.thebereancall.org

 

[dybmh]

Ah killing 16000 innocent not intention.

Definitely not. The intention is not to kill innocent people. If that was the intention, then they would be reacting differently.

Give me your mind for a while to see how you think and feel about Palestinians.

I am at your service. Ask and I will answer honestly.

Really you not denial, continue and said i am not pro Israel too.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're saying here. All I've said in this thread and the other about you is that I am concerned that you are not making logical conclusions. And... I refer to you as brother.

Israel is apartheid terrorist state is fact Mr super denial man.

This is difficult for me, because, civil rights are the first casuality of any war on native soil. Israel is at war on its native soil, and has been at a constant state of war on its native soil since 1948. I'm not sure that the judgement of apratheid can be applied until it is at peace. I'll need to research it more fully.

I will watch it tomorrow and report back with my comments. I'll also try to look into the apartheid issue.

Here is a video that I feel is useful, because it starts to qualify the experience of the Arab israelis. Their experience is extremely relevant for evaluating whether or not israel is an apartheid state. Will you watch it? It's 20 minutes, but, very useful.

 

[Samael_Khan]

As Paul states in Romans 11, God is not finished with the Jewish people/Israel, nor has He rejected them…

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew….


And in Jeremiah it I stated that God will never cast Israel away…

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord:

“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:35-37


In the church there is no Jew or Greek, etc., as all are one in Christ. This does not eliminate God purpose and plan for Israel.

Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

Before the cross of Christ, mankind was divided into two groups: Jews and Gentiles. The Old and New Testaments both make very clear what caused this distinction. It was the covenants God had made with

www.thebereancall.org

Isnt Israel no longer a physical nation though but rather a spiritual one? And wouldnt the physical nation also be expelled from the land until they followed god again?

 

[libre]

Can you expand on this idea of self determination for Palestinians? Specifically, I'm curious to know why it would appear that it falls solely on the shoulders of Israel to make this happen? Why can't Jordan and Egypt donate some land to create a Palestinian homeland?

Did you have any thoughts on the Finkelstein quote that I posted, or are we just deflecting blame to Jordan and Egypt again?

Before the Nakba, the vast majority of the land that was owned in the area we call Israel was owned by Arabs and Arabs were the majority ethnic group.

In 1948 there were over 750,000 Palestinians turned into homeless refugees by Jewish militias during the Nakba. Attempts to blame Arab nations are thinly veiled apologia.

 

[Samael_Khan]

There is indeed a parallel between Nazis'
demonization of Jews as a threat, & Israel's
doing the same to Palestinians.
Of course, there's the matter of degree,
ie, Nazis were far worse.

I see parallels here too. And with places that were undoubtedly colonised. Colonisation is often accompanied by rationalisation such as "we were here first" (like what defenders of white supremacy in south africa say), one sided white washed history that demonises the oppressed and make the oppressors look like the oppressed ( This is what the apartheid government taught my parents), empathising only with the minority in power and apathetic to the colonised (which is still a problem in the world today), and making as if they are not directly responsible for the violence that is caused to the minority in power by the oppressed as if systemic laws and segregation and forced eviction should be met with "thank you master" by the victims.

And the sad thing is that with the Nazis, the Apartheid government and Israeli government, they themselves rose to power because of oppression of their people. So they should be the first to understand. Yet they become the 1984 Pigs. Quite tragic.

 

[icehorse]

The amount of research that I have done on this in the past three months is staggering and you post a wiki page, as if no one has seen it?

I was mostly responding to SF.

So I'm genuinely curious to know a couple of things:

What range of lands do you think "Palestinians" have historically lived on? Doesn't it include parts of Jordan and the Sanai?

How much history from Balfour on ,do you think we should consider when assessing the current situation?

 

[InChrist]

Isnt Israel no longer a physical nation though but rather a spiritual one? And wouldnt the physical nation also be expelled from the land until they followed god again?

I think the idea of spiritualizing Israel or Israel replacement theory is contrary to the scriptures. Israel is Israel and the church or Body of Christ are distinct entities. From the the scriptures I see that God brings the Jewish people back to the land of Israel, first in unbelief, as we see now. This is in preparation for the Tribulation period where God again focuses on the nation of Israel and bringing her to repentance.