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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sorry firedragon......but seriously?
confused0036.gif

Do we insist on "Jehovah" being the "real" name of God? When have we ever said that? Somebody "made a mountain out of a molehill", but it wasn't JW's.
We can use Yahweh or Jehovah or even יְהֹוָ֞ה YHWH because all of these describe the same God. It was he who revealed his name to Moses and told the Jews to "mention" it in all their generations..."forever".

I know that very well.

I agree with the logic that if JW's or anyone insists that JEHOVAH is the pronunciation and the whole theology is based on that. So I dont agree that JW's say that, I agree with his logic of the hypothesis.

Cheers.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
When you bring in this kind of post completely out of the blue irrelevant to the topic, irrelevant to the post responded to, its proselytisation. This is like a wild weed in this forum really. It was not like this long ago. Very rarely we used to see this kind of consistent irrelevant proselytisation, now its in every thread.

Please be kind enough to try your best not to steer every thread away into proselytising your faith.
LOL! Steady, mate.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I have learned a lot in this post about the JW's faith, their points and basis's, and also the opposing views and the opposer's misconceptions about the JW's faith etc etc. It was indeed pretty good overall. :)
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Ah. I dont think I have any qualification I faiths to do that mate. ;) But I would love to read.
I'm beginning composition of "The Neophyte Jehovah's Witness Creed". Nothing too deep; it would be too long, and would essentially have to quote the whole "New World Translation of the Scriptures" and everything on www.jw.org, which would be redundant and tedious.
I have in mind just a brief "checklist" of statements that will give a neophyte some "theological bones" to build on or could, alternatively, be used by senior citizen JWs who are well on their way to forgetting what it was that they once believed.

I made a start with this statement:
  • I believe in Jehovah God, First Cause and Uncreated Creator of all things, an Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Bounded Spirit Being.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
’ (Jas 4:4) Jesus said of his disciples: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (Joh 17:16) Therefore, Jesus is careful that those who make up the members of his body are clean morally and spiritually. (Eph 5:26, 27)
"are clean morally and spiritually" hardly describes the rest of Christianity.
"They are no part of the world" what does that mean to you's ?
1)nobody’s perfect. Not even the disciples. Not even the Pope. Not even you.
2) The statement is a theological statement — not an ontological statement. You all appear to have real difficulty separating the two.
3) everyone — even Jesus — is part of the world in some sense.
4) Jesus and all his followers — including ALL Christians — are “no part of the world,” in that we have ostensibly stepped into a different way of being and of seeing.
5) None of this entitles you to either step away from from your Christian sisters and brothers, or to assume that you’re entitled to some higher plane of spiritual development, authority, or authenticity.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
“Quick to dismiss the Jesus part”?! Oh yeah....JW’s don’t obey Him at all, do we?
That’s not what I meant. I meant you dismiss the issue of the pronunciation of the authenticity of the name commonly used. Why is that, when you’re so picayune about YHVH?
We don’t ‘love our brothers’ do we? (John 13:34-35) And we kill our “enemies”, don’t we? -Matthew 5:44

Wait, no! That’s Christendom!!
You’d actually think that since Christendom’s majority are “Jesus is God” believers, that they’d be the most obedient to Jesus.

But history reveals otherwise.
Judgment. Again. You know, yes, the Church has committed atrocities in the past. But no one’s perfect — not even you all. “Those without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus said that. Jesus, whom you just claimed to follow better than I. Yet here you are, throwing stones. Not following what Jesus taught. See? Not perfect. Just like everyone else. And here’s the thing: You all would separate yourselves from the Church, claiming that we’re sooo bad and fallen away. But your movement began 1900 years after the Church began. You all do have a heritage with the Church, for, without it, none of you could possibly know about Jesus. The Bible didn’t just fall out of the sky. Knowledge of Jesus didn’t just fall out of the sky. We taught it to you. Just as we acknowledge that, without the Jews, we wouldn’t know about God. Thing is, we honor the Jews. Even though we took a different path. The hubris and entitlement in your justifications just astounds me.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That’s not what I meant. I meant you dismiss the issue of the pronunciation of the authenticity of the name commonly used. Why is that, when you’re so picayune about YHVH?

Judgment. Again. You know, yes, the Church has committed atrocities in the past. But no one’s perfect — not even you all. “Those without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus said that. Jesus, whom you just claimed to follow better than I. Yet here you are, throwing stones. Not following what Jesus taught. See? Not perfect. Just like everyone else. And here’s the thing: You all would separate yourselves from the Church, claiming that we’re sooo bad and fallen away. But your movement began 1900 years after the Church began. You all do have a heritage with the Church, for, without it, none of you could possibly know about Jesus. The Bible didn’t just fall out of the sky. Knowledge of Jesus didn’t just fall out of the sky. We taught it to you. Just as we acknowledge that, without the Jews, we wouldn’t know about God. Thing is, we honor the Jews. Even though we took a different path. The hubris and entitlement in your justifications just astounds me.

I know some Jews who cringe when we call their holy book "the Old Testament". I honestly dont know how hurting their feelings is honouring them. These in my opinion are all rosy statements we make for some aligning reason. Dont take this wrong, but in debating sometimes we offend others. You have offended Christians in this same thread, but you say you honour the Jews. I am not saying you intentionally offend people, but this is natural. When you make a claim against a particular faith they get offended. So I believe its better to be real.

Even pronouncing the name of God is offensive to Jews. So every time you pronounce it it is offensive, they just take it I think as passing and not give much notice in discussion.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
IMO, the “sandbox” was originally Judaism, but some nasty kitties got in and soiled it so badly that it could not be cleansed, so when Jesus came in the first century, he created a new “sandbox” and led his disciples out of the soiled one and into a clean one...same God but under a new covenant
So, what you are, in effect, saying, is that the Jews are “filthy kitties, living in their own filth.” Yet, Jesus didn’t throw away Judaism. Jesus didn’t condemn his heritage. Jesus merely brought forth from that heritage the next step. Your “mental picture” is both theologically and exegetically unjustifiable.
since there were no other sandboxes to be made until Christ came again, his disciples were to try and avoid the contamination as best they could. The owners of the sandbox did not think that the soiling stank and were content to play in there for centuries, eliminating the complainers (those who could not stand the stench) along the way. So those conditioned to the contamination remained silent.....virtually saying....”what contamination?”
So, ousting the “stank” of heretical theology wasn’t a reaction to that “stank” and an attempt to clean the sandbox? Your revisionist history is astounding.
When Christ returned to establish his kingdom (as he promised in 1914 by our estimations)
Your estimations are clearly wrong. This wrong estimation has led you to divide the household of the Faithful unnecessarily and, I believe, dishonestly.

so on his return, Christ again created a new sandbox, and this time every bit of leftover contamination was removed, and this sandbox was to remain clean for all time to come.
There is no “new sandbox,” just as the Church is not really a “new sandbox” from its Judaic forebears — merely a recognition that the sandbox is larger than originally thought.
A separation occurred at this juncture and those who didn’t want, or see the need for the 'cleansing', stayed in the old 'sandbox' that felt familiar and comfortable, despite the stench which they never acknowledged. For them, there was no need to change a thing.....except to gather themselves into like-minded sects, carving Christianity up into thousands of disunited fragments
Wait... isn’t this what you all did? “Carve up Christianity” by following this codswallop of “Christ returned in 1914? isn’t that what this “separation” you all created did?

No, I’m afraid you and I see things much, much differently from each other. As I said before, the difference is, that while I believe you all made a mistake, I don’t judge you for making that mistake — I merely think you should acknowledge it and move on. I don’t care what you believe. I don’t think God condemns you. Your position with regard to me appears to be much, much different. And that position comes from entitlement — not a Jesus teaching.

You are so busy stumbling over capital letters that you lost the gist of what I said. Jehovah’s “witnesses” have always existed as the scriptures indicate.....but rather than them joining us....we joined them by becoming his “witnesses” in this “time of the end”.
Do you not understand that there’s a marked difference between saying that the ancient Jews were Jehovah’s Witnesses, And that they were witnesses for Jehovah?


Do you see where you tripped up by being so pedantic?
Do you see where you tripped up by being so entitled?

At no time did I say that. It is the way that you interpreted what I said. Perhaps you need to read a little more carefully and with a lot less bias and few less knee jerks.
Yes you did. The capitalization indicates the denomination. You wrote that the ancient Jews were Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you didn’t mean that, then perhaps you need to write a little more carefully, and with greater concision, because you’re coming off as very entitled.

You have done it a few times. What purpose did stating your theological 'qualifications' have other than to put yourself above the “uneducated”?
It shows that you’re not the only one who has done his homework in Biblical exegesis.
The rabbinical schools were not what Jesus and the 12 attended
Did I say they went to rabbinical school?

Jesus’ day, his “accusers” were in God’s eyes, the “accused”. The heretics calling others 'heretics' is exactly what Roman Catholicism did with the inquisition. How many of Christ’s true disciples were silenced by their power-driven tyranny?
How many people do you condemn as not being real Christians just because they choose to work within the traditional church?

No, actually according to scripture, there are two gods vying for our worship
“Hear, O Israel (this is a witness of YHVH), the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
That’s according to the Bible, and coming from witnesses of YHVH, with whom you seek to align yourself. Yet, they don’t believe in this “Pretender.”
Sadly the pretender has at this time more devotees because he is the one who created the “sandbox” that they play in
No. Christ created his Body, the Church.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
You know, yes, the Church has committed atrocities in the past.
I was somewhat mystified by the JW predilection for their "your father was a murderer and your mother was a whore" references given, IMNO, the distinct probability that JWs tend to be ex-Christians. One would think that ex-Christians would be just a tad bit more humble about slinging an insult that applies equally-well to them. Looks like "white-washing their sepulchres" does wonders for their self-esteem and humility by enabling them--cognitively-speaking anyway--to "come out from among" the morally impure, pagan, satanistic scum that they believe fill churches, synagogues, and mosques. So I suppose that I really shouldn't have been mystified after all, eh?

I think what was throwing me off was the fact that the JWs are, it seems to me, among the most quick to judge "Christendom," among the most frequent to judge Jews, and among among the least frequent to judge Muslims. But I suspect that that inequitable judgement is probably due to the rarity of Muslims to convert to the "true Christianity" of JWs.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
So, what you are, in effect, saying, is that the Jews are “filthy kitties, living in their own filth.”
??? Yikes! I had to "Show Ignored Content" in order to figure out who and what evoked that response. I should have known: "Queen of the Most Humble".
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I know some Jews who cringe when we call their holy book "the Old Testament". I honestly dont know how hurting their feelings is honouring them. These in my opinion are all rosy statements we make for some aligning reason. Dont take this wrong, but in debating sometimes we offend others. You have offended Christians in this same thread, but you say you honour the Jews. I am not saying you intentionally offend people, but this is natural. When you make a claim against a particular faith they get offended. So I believe its better to be real.

Even pronouncing the name of God is offensive to Jews. So every time you pronounce it it is offensive, they just take it I think as passing and not give much notice in discussion.
I don’t use the term “Old Testament,” and I most generally use the term “God” or “Lord.”
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I was somewhat mystified by the JW predilection for their "your father was a murderer and your mother was a whore" references given, IMNO, the distinct probability that JWs tend to be ex-Christians. One would think that ex-Christians would be just a tad bit more humble about slinging an insult that applies equally-well to them. Looks like "white-washing their sepulchres" does wonders for their self-esteem and humility by enabling them--cognitively-speaking anyway--to "come out from among" the morally impure, pagan, satanistic scum that they believe fill churches, synagogues, and mosques. So I suppose that I really shouldn't have been mystified after all, eh?

I think what was throwing me off was the fact that the JWs are, it seems to me, among the most quick to judge "Christendom," among the most frequent to judge Jews, and among among the least frequent to judge Muslims. But I suspect that that inequitable judgement is probably due to the rarity of Muslims to convert to the "true Christianity" of JWs.
What stumps me is that they hold up these very human imperfections as signs that God is not in us, yet they fail to see the very imperfection of the hubris and entitlement and hypocrisy of that judgment. It appears as if their whole raison d’etre is predicated on how dirty others are. It appears to be finger-pointing (which is what the poster accuses me of doing). A mastery of deflection and gaslighting. When did Jesus teach those dynamics?
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
1)nobody’s perfect. Not even the disciples. Not even the Pope. Not even you.
2) The statement is a theological statement — not an ontological statement. You all appear to have real difficulty separating the two.
3) everyone — even Jesus — is part of the world in some sense.
4) Jesus and all his followers — including ALL Christians — are “no part of the world,” in that we have ostensibly stepped into a different way of being and of seeing.
5) None of this entitles you to either step away from from your Christian sisters and brothers, or to assume that you’re entitled to some higher plane of spiritual development, authority, or authenticity.

humm ,you are somewhat unaware of who Jesus was speaking to .
yes, all true Christion's take to heart the directions Jesus gave and they consider it important to stay away from things that would divide up the honor that should only rightly go to God .
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Oh but it does.....”let he who is without sin, cast the first stone”.....if you 'live in a glass house, be careful when you throw stones, because they can come right back at you. They can't of course unless they know your address....:D Why are you hiding? You seem to have your own definition of Christianity....do you have your own definition of shamanism too?

It does add to this discussion if the finger pointer is not open to the same scrutiny as those he is trashing.....fair's fair, isn't it?
You want me to post my beliefs so you can poke holes in them with the use of straw man fallacies in order to hurt me or be revenged. How does that shed light on this debate? My problem with the posts here isn’t particularly the beliefs, themselves, but 1) the uninformed way in which the beliefs are justified, And 2) the entitlement and judgment of others’ adherence to the traditional Church. What does my personal faith have to do with that?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
humm ,you are somewhat unaware of who Jesus was speaking to .
yes, all true Christion's take to heart the directions Jesus gave and they consider it important to stay away from things that would divide up the honor that should only rightly go to God .
Actually, I am aware of who Jesus is talking to. If you believe that the Church “divides God’s honor,” that’s your issue — not ours. Your judgment is unfounded.
 
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