The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[firedragon]

I don’t use the term “Old Testament,” and I most generally use the term “God” or “Lord.”

Nice.

 

[cataway]

Actually, I am aware of who Jesus is talking to. If you believe that the Church “divides God’s honor,” that’s your issue — not ours. Your judgment is unfounded.

church gathering continue to be places where politics are discussed . politicians will even use the pulpit to sway voters to their thinking. they say they pray for God's kingdom yet hope in Man's

 

[sojourner]

church gathering continue to be places where politics are discussed . politicians will even use the pulpit to sway voters to their thinking. they say they pray for God's kingdom yet hope in Man's

That may be true in some cases, but certainly is not a universal symptom in the traditional church. As for politics, where issues of justice, inclusion, peace, equity, and respect are concerned, we believe Jesus calls us to speak out.

 

[Terry Sampson]

It appears as if their whole raison d’etre is predicated on how dirty others are.

In and of itself, that opinion would not trouble me. What is somewhat annoying is their frequent "exercise of faith" when, having gone out from among us, they spend a remarkable amount of time coming back among us to point out that they are not among us, .... anymore. And when asked why they keep coming back among us, they tell us that they are fulfilling Jesus' command which tells me that they have a remarkably odd and non-Pauline notions of "Grace" and "Faith".

Ha! To confirm the accuracy that line above, I went jw.org and checked Vol.2 of "Insight into Scriptures" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/
The following two screenshots are from the Index:

"Grace" isn't even in the Index and "Faith" is buried in an article about some another topic.

 

[sojourner]

In and of itself, that opinion would not trouble me. What is somewhat annoying is their frequent "exercise of faith" when, having gone out from among us, they spend a remarkable amount of time coming back among us to point out that they are not among us, .... anymore. And when asked why they keep coming back among us, they tell us that they are fulfilling Jesus' command which tells me that they have a remarkably odd and non-Pauline notions of "Grace" and "Faith".

Ha! To confirm the accuracy that line above, I went jw.org and checked Vol.2 of "Insight into Scriptures" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/
The following two screenshots are from the Index:

View attachment 41876 View attachment 41874

"Grace" isn't even in the Index and "Faith" is buried in an article about some another topic.

Except that it flies in the face of Jesus’ parable about the Pharisee and the Publican. You’re right. Grace seems predicated on “how good I am,” especially as held up against “how bad they are.” That’s certainly not what Paul taught. Nor is it what we find in the Gospels.

 

[cataway]

In and of itself, that opinion would not trouble me. What is somewhat annoying is their frequent "exercise of faith" when, having gone out from among us, they spend a remarkable amount of time coming back among us to point out that they are not among us, .... anymore. And when asked why they keep coming back among us, they tell us that they are fulfilling Jesus' command which tells me that they have a remarkably odd and non-Pauline notions of "Grace" and "Faith".

Ha! To confirm the accuracy that line above, I went jw.org and checked Vol.2 of "Insight into Scriptures" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/
The following two screenshots are from the Index:

View attachment 41876 View attachment 41874

"Grace" isn't even in the Index and "Faith" is buried in an article about some another topic.

the word grace has different meaning . to understand grace in scripture ..its unmerited favor

 

[cataway]

In and of itself, that opinion would not trouble me. What is somewhat annoying is their frequent "exercise of faith" when, having gone out from among us, they spend a remarkable amount of time coming back among us to point out that they are not among us, .... anymore. And when asked why they keep coming back among us, they tell us that they are fulfilling Jesus' command which tells me that they have a remarkably odd and non-Pauline notions of "Grace" and "Faith".

Ha! To confirm the accuracy that line above, I went jw.org and checked Vol.2 of "Insight into Scriptures" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/
The following two screenshots are from the Index:

View attachment 41876 View attachment 41874

"Grace" isn't even in the Index and "Faith" is buried in an article about some another topic.

you could not find
faith .humm ,
FAITH
The word “faith” is translated from the Greek piʹstis, primarily conveying the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion. Depending on the context, the Greek word may also be understood to mean “faithfulness” or “fidelity.”—1Th 3:7; Tit 2:10.
The Scriptures tell us: “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Heb 11:1) “Assured expectation” translates the Greek word hy·poʹsta·sis. This term is common in ancient papyrus business documents. It conveys the idea of something that underlies visible conditions and guarantees a future possession. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.” (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p. 660) The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. “The evident demonstration,” or evidence for conviction, is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it.

 

[cataway]

Except that it flies in the face of Jesus’ parable about the Pharisee and the Publican. You’re right. Grace seems predicated on “how good I am,” especially as held up against “how bad they are.” That’s certainly not what Paul taught. Nor is it what we find in the Gospels.

if any are wondering what a Publican is ,its a tax collector

 

[sojourner]

the word grace has different meaning . to understand grace in scripture ..its unmerited favor

Which appears to be at odds with what I’ve read here that the belief is that God favors “those who obey,” which would seem to suggest a type of grace that is based on merit, rather than a grace that is, by definition, unmerited. Can you explain that apparent discrepancy?

 

[cataway]

Which appears to be at odds with what I’ve read here that the belief is that God favors “those who obey,” which would seem to suggest a type of grace that is based on merit, rather than a grace that is, by definition, unmerited. Can you explain that apparent discrepancy?

really ?? it bothers you that God favors those who obey him?

 

[sojourner]

really ?? it bothers you that God favors those who obey him?

Yes, if the definition of grace (God’s favor) is that it is unmerited. As I said, it presents a discrepancy between grace as unmerited and grace as a reward for obedience. Can you explain that discrepancy?

 

[Terry Sampson]

the word grace has different meaning . to understand grace in scripture ..its unmerited favor

You're not telling me anything new or that I don't already know. I realize that it may be difficult for you to believe, but you're just going to have to take my word for it: I know what "Grace" is. I've been the beneficiary of my God's unmerited mercy and favor every day of my 72+ years and I am sure of that grace in this world.

 

[Terry Sampson]

you could not find faith .humm,

Hello, ... Earth to cataway. In the post that you responded to I wrote:

Ha! To confirm the accuracy that line above, I went jw.org and checked Vol.2 of "Insight into Scriptures" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/
The following two screenshots are from the Index:

"Grace" isn't even in the Index and "Faith" is buried in an article about some another topic.

Translation: I couldn't find the word "Grace" and I found "Faith" buried in an article about some other topic. Later, and not mentioned in my post, I found:

So, if jw.org has so much to say about "Real Faith", why isn't there an article about it in "Insights into Scripture".

 

[cataway]

Yes, if the definition of grace (God’s favor) is that it is unmerited. As I said, it presents a discrepancy between grace as unmerited and grace as a reward for obedience. Can you explain that discrepancy?

when one realizes that we are all sinners. God really has no reason to have any dealings with mankind at all .
i should think there would be more appreciation that all of mankind was not wipeout , considering how rotten men can be. i am greatful that he is giving all the chance to learn and come into a favered standing.

 

[cataway]

Hello, ... Earth to cataway. In the post that you responded to I wrote:


Translation: I couldn't find the word "Grace" and I found "Faith" buried in an article about some other topic. Later, and not mentioned in my post, I found:

View attachment 41880

So, if jw.org has so much to say about "Real Faith", why isn't there an article about it in "Insights into Scripture".

its where i copied and pasted from

 

[sojourner]

when one realizes that we are all sinners. God really has no reason to have any dealings with mankind at all .
i should think there would be more appreciation that all of mankind was not wipeout , considering how rotten men can be. i am greatful that he is giving all the chance to learn and come into a favered standing.

Yes, but apparently unmerited grace is not extended to those who don’t merit it. That’s the question you must answer.

yes, God has every reason to have any dealings with us. God made us in God’s image. God loves us unconditionally.

 

[cataway]

Yes, but apparently unmerited grace is not extended to those who don’t merit it. That’s the question you must answer.

yes, God has every reason to have any dealings with us. God made us in God’s image. God loves us unconditionally.

you might yet come to an understanding of the improtance of Jesus death

 

[sojourner]

you might yet come to an understanding of the improtance of Jesus death

You could just answer the question imposed instead of deflecting by trying to out-theologize the theologian.

I’ve studied, written and analyzed a lot of soteriology in my career, but I’m afraid your theological thinking is going to have to be much clearer with regard to what you’re getting at.

 

[firedragon]

church gathering continue to be places where politics are discussed . politicians will even use the pulpit to sway voters to their thinking. they say they pray for God's kingdom yet hope in Man's

Religion has always been used for political agenda. So has all other isms including atheists, marxism, Pacifism etc.

 

[firedragon]

the word grace has different meaning . to understand grace in scripture ..its unmerited favor

Im curious. What are the other interpretations of "Grace" or "Charisma"?