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The Jesus Myth

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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I think the bible, specifically the 4 gospels, is a lot of hype. If Yeshua existed then he wasn't all that important or noticeable and certainly not worthy of writing about.

Yeah, that's the obvious counterargument. Jesus was never mentioned by secular historians because no one noticed him. Lots of problems with that, though. If Jesus was so bland as to be unnoticeable, then who is this 'historical Jesus' whom we chase? Just some nobody? That image doesn't please most of the Jesus-believers of my acquaintance. They would not like to find such an historical Jesus as that. They want to see him as at least a Great Teacher. You know, someone who brought radical ideas of love-thy-neighbor, at the very least. But a bringer-of-radical-new-truth would likely have been noticed, I think. A religion founder, fallingblood calls him. But wouldn't a religion founder have been noticed?

No, it's easier for me to discount the historical Jesus altogether. I think he might have been some teacher from 100BC-50BC or so, whom the gospel writers took and placed into 33AD.

Other than the Romans and some local Jews what enemies would he have had? Rome had a way of dealing with its enemies.

Again, it depends on Jesus' actual behavior. Did he throw over the money tables and **** off the religious establishment? If so, I think he'd've had plenty of literate enemies. Yet we hear nothing like that from them. I see them as scratching their heads and asking, "Jesus Who?"

To me his existences and what's written about him is circumstantial at best. For some that seems to be enough. But I get it because as soon as you mention Yeshua and the lack of historical evidence some one goes and pulls all manner of supposed historical figures out of their bum to show that Yeshua's lack of historicity is not uncommon.

I tell them that I'm happy to doubt the historicity of those historical figures. And I ask them if they're likewise happy to doubt the historicity of Jesus... usually receiving a dead silence for my efforts.

That refusal to acknowledge doubt about the historical Jesus is another good clue that his historicity is rooted more in personal psychology than in actual scholarship.

....not sure because I wasn't there.

Now, now... mustn't let a little thing like that interfere with a good case of historical certainty!:)
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
So, people writing about Jesus isn't evidence that Jesus existed? So people writing about Augustus is not evidence that Augustus existed?

Sure it's evidence. Just not very good evidence -- especially when that writing looks like fiction and is unsupported by any secular evidence.

People wrote about Robin Hood. About Beowulf.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sure it's evidence. Just not very good evidence -- especially when that writing looks like fiction and is unsupported by any secular evidence.
People wrote about Robin Hood. About Beowulf.

Isn't Luke [3 vs1,2] secular evidence in that the people mentioned there were real historical people ?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm adding your first two points here as well in order to be thorough.

1)The synoptic gospels, in which whole blocks of text are copied from the other gospels, leading any reasonable person to conclude that they are rewrites of fictional work, rather than retellings of the same story.
This is actually a point that makes little sense. It is based off of the assumption that plagiarism and editing only exist in fictional genres. That simply is not true.

When looking at any number of historical figures, one can, much of the time, find older sources behind the writings. It is called research. Even today, when one looks at a biography of any ancient figure, one will see that previous sources are used. Today, they are cited, and catalogued in a bibliography; however, that doesn't take away from the fact that older sources are being used.

That is what the synoptic Gospels did. We can look at Luke. He basically tells us that he is writing a historic account. He tells us that he is relying on older sources, both written and oral. And comparing it to other works, we can even pick out some of these sources. That is what one would expect in a historical writing, not a fictional rewrite. Unless you believe that nearly any work on a historical figure is fictional, because those same techniques are used even up to today (for the most part, new authors do cite their sources, but there are exceptions).

So your first point rests on a fallacy.
2) The human passion for heroes, leading a reasonable person to doubt that Jesus is any more 'historic' than Robin Hood or Merlin.
Let's just start with a basic. Both Robin Hood and Merlin are suspected to be based off an actual historical figure. One that has been embellished, but still an actual historical figure.

As for the human passion for heroes, you have to prove that. More so, you have to show that this passion would cause a person to create Jesus.

The problem is that a hero does not need to be a fictional character. There are various historical figures who were also considered heros. Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Harry Houdini, etc are historical figures who have been considered by different people to be heros. We can go back to the time of Jesus and find that Augustus or Alexander the Great were both considered heros as well. A hero does not have to be a fictional character.

The second problem is that Jesus does not fit the hero character for the culture that supposedly created him. If Jesus is a fictional character, one must assume that Jews were the ones who created him. The reason being that we see him first in the Jewish culture, and no where else. Yet, Jesus does not conform to the typical Jewish hero that he was supposed to be (the Messiah). The fact that he died, would have just ruled him out as one more failed Messianic figure. There would have been no reason for the Jews to create such a failing figure.

At the same time, the Jews had various different people they could look to for their hero. They could focus on ancient heros, such as Moses, or Elijah. They could focus on contemporary religious leaders such as John the Baptist. They could focus on various Messianic claimants, or other religious leaders. There were many different individuals that a Jew could focus on as their hero. There was no reason to create an individual who, like many of the religious leaders of his time, and messianic claimants, ended up dying at the hands of their enemy, the Romans.

The idea that Jesus was created in order to fulfill the desire of having a hero simply does not stand questioning.
3) The local Jews didn't seem to notice Jesus, even though he supposedly had masses of followers and made quite a stir.
How can you say that the local Jews didn't notice Jesus? Because they never wrote anything about him?

This really is just a horrible point. Literacy rates in ancient cultures, at best, were 10, maybe 15%. And then we are talking about places like Athens. Getting to rural areas, like Galilee, the literacy rate was much lower. In Galilee, it has been estimated that literacy was around 1 to 3%. Now, the people who could write would have been even less. So few writings would come from that area on any subject.

That is exactly what we see during the time in which Jesus lived, in the first century. We have little writings from any Jews, or about Jews, or about the area in general. Of all of the Pharisaic Jews, we have writings from only two. We have no writings from the Sadducees. And for the most part, we have really no writings in the area of Galilee.

Now, does that mean that the Jews didn't notice anything that was happening during that time period? Of course not. It simply means that they did not have the means to record it down. And there was no reason to when one considers that they were living in an oral culture, which passed information by word of mouth.

If we would take this point seriously, then we would have to assume that most Jews were not aware of even the destruction of the Temple or Jerusalem. Because as it stands, we only have the writings of Josephus that detail that event. What this shows is that there is no reason to even expect writings regarding Jesus at all, and especially not from his contemporaries. Yet, we do find writings about him that are relatively near in time.
4) The existence of many gospels, pointing to a gospel-writing industry, pointing to a fictional character like Dracula about whom everyone seemed to want to do a rewrite.
First, comparing Jesus to Dracula probably is not best for you. The reason being that Dracula was inspired by a historical figure. At the same time, Dracula, as has been portrayed in the fictional works, has been portrayed just as that, fictional. That is quite a difference.

Second, a Gospel-writing industry would have been of little value. First, Gospels were not being written in order to be sold. It was not a profitable endeavor at all. So what would be the motivation?

Now, the motivation isn't to gain power. We can know that for sure as the Gospels were written for specific audiences, who already subscribed to those ideas. Again, the Gospels were not being sold to others, and were produced for specific audiences who already subscribed to the ideas being taught. More so, the Gospels for the most part weren't even being read, but were being read out loud. So a Gospel writing industry simply doesn't fit.

Also, such an act would have been quite unique in the ancient world. One simply does not see such writing industries. Again, we are talking about a society that is primarily illiterate.

Then there is the nature of the Gospel. Some have speculated that there were like scripts that would be read. It is know that the Gospels spread primarily by word of mouth. They would be read out loud to a group. As more information came about, people added to this script. This just does not fit into the idea of a Gospel writing industry.

The main problem with this point though is that it is not taking into account the rate of illiteracy during that time. When one has a movement that is composed primarily of the lower class, which means that literacy is even less there, a writing industry simply does not make sense.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
5) No reports from any of Jesus' enemies.
What enemies are you talking about? More so, again we are talking about an oral culture that is primarily illiterate. There is no reason to assume that there would be such writings.

However, by the second and third century, we do begin seeing "enemies" begin to write. Celsus comes to mind.
6) No contemporary reports as to his personal appearance. Strange ommission, don't you agree? It would be right up there on top of the list if people had actually known him.
Not a strange omission at all. Again, we are talking about an oral culture that is primarily illiterate. We shouldn't expect any writings about Jesus, yet we see them anyway. Again though, we find very few writings from Jews on any subject during that time. As we have it now, we only have one Jew from that time who even wrote about the destruction of the Temple, and of Jerusalem, which are of massive importance.

However, even more, we have writings from Paul, who seems important at least to a point, and no one wrote about him either. No contemporary wrote about his personal appearance either. Nor did anyone write about him. And Paul traveled much more than Jesus did. He was seen by many more people than Jesus was.

Many ancient historical figures never had their appearances written about by contemporaries. It was not that important.
7) I could go on and on, but this is probably enough for this message.
You may want to go on and on, because as it stands, those were hardly credible.
I've met you before. My reticence to engage you has to do with that.
That doesn't excuse your avoidance tactics. Especially when I haven't attacked you or the like. And since I do actually respond to the points you make, I see no need for the avoidance tactics, unless it is because you simply can not support your views. Because that is how it comes off as.
OK. Now that I have yet again posted irrefutable proof of my position, you are finally ready to convert?
Again, you need to look up what irrefutable means. I refuted your proof, thus is is not irrefutable. And really, you need something more than you have provided this far.
I find it so curious that you absolutely refuse to address my actual point. So I'll ask again: Can you provide any two or three ancient or modern texts in which strings of language are copied verbatim, within the text, in the same way as the gospels do?

It's a simple question. If you can actually provide the evidence, I might begin to shift my position.

Earlier, you hemmed and hawed about 'same sources' in Houdini bios and other works. But you just won't address the actual issue I've raised. Can you show me 3 texts, of the same story, in which parallel strings of words are integrated within the texts of those stories?

Simple challenge, yes?
I have addressed your points on numerous occasions. I haven't dismissed them, and I don't use avoidance tactics in order to brush them off.

And really, I have provided you answers for this. Josephus uses various sources, and quotes them from time to time. There is no secret about that. Paul also does the same thing.

What we are talking about is someone taking one source, and copying it, at least partially. That is what happens when a person quotes another source. They are copying the work of another. When one doesn't cite that source, it is called plagiarism. And that still happens today. That is what we see in the Gospels. One source using another.

I really don't see why you have such a problem with the fact that the Gospel writers used other sources. Call them plagiarizers, that's fine. But that doesn't make them fiction. Because one find the same thing in non-fiction.

As to give you an example of this in modern times, in which strings of language are copied verbatim, here Plagiarism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

What you will find is someone quoting another author. As in, they used a source and copied from that source what a previous author said. That is what the Gospels writers were doing, with the exception of not citing their sources.
Mountains of evidence. Absolute proof. Sorry.
Try again.
But can you prove that?
Yep: BBC - History - British History in depth: Robin Hood and his Historical Context
William Wallace: The Real Robin Hood?
Those are for Robin Hood.

Merlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For Merlin
I can no more prove that to you than I can prove to you that the moon is round.

All I can say is that if you don't believe that humans crave heroes, then we live in entirely different universes.
Just provide some evidence. That is all you have to do. It should be easy if is such a human craving.
A bunch of pikers compared to Paul.
According to what? Making baseless assumptions will get you no where.
I don't share your word-worshipping ways. Christianity is no more a 'thing' than honor is a thing.
So another avoidance tactic. Instead of making ridiculous comments, and insults, maybe you want to actually defend your position.
You really do believe it, don't you? You think that words and the things at which they try to point are the very same things -- rather than that words are just our feeble, fallible efforts at pointing toward nebulous objects.

It's not how language works. I'll be glad to go over the whole thing with you if you're interested.
No, I'm not interested. I know the meaning of the word create. I know what the English language has deemed it to mean, and that is all that matters in this subject. You trying to twist things around simply won't work.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Sure it's evidence. Just not very good evidence -- especially when that writing looks like fiction and is unsupported by any secular evidence.

People wrote about Robin Hood. About Beowulf.
That is a very weak argument. It only looks like fiction to those who are not familiar to ancient genres. And you have yet to show that they are fiction or appear to be such. Especially when many of the elements in the Gospels are also a part of various historical works as well. Even the stories of Augustus, and Alexander the great contain many of the same features.

As for it being unsupported by secular evidence. That simply doesn't matter. Josephus supports the existence of a historical Jesus. Josephus is by far enough. And when one considers that Jesus lived in a marginal area of empire, and was apart of a marginal people, it is no surprise that no secular sources mentioned him. No secular sources mentioned much of what happened in the area during the first century. No secular sources mentioned nearly anything about anyone living in the area during that time either. Again, an oral culture, with a primarily illiterate population.

Your point then is moot.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Yeah, that's the obvious counterargument. Jesus was never mentioned by secular historians because no one noticed him. Lots of problems with that, though. If Jesus was so bland as to be unnoticeable, then who is this 'historical Jesus' whom we chase? Just some nobody? That image doesn't please most of the Jesus-believers of my acquaintance. They would not like to find such an historical Jesus as that. They want to see him as at least a Great Teacher. You know, someone who brought radical ideas of love-thy-neighbor, at the very least. But a bringer-of-radical-new-truth would likely have been noticed, I think. A religion founder, fallingblood calls him. But wouldn't a religion founder have been noticed?
Actually no. Jesus wasn't bringing about many radical new truths. The idea of love your neighbor had already been taught by various Jewish leaders. Much of what Jesus was saying was not unique at all, and when one studies various sources on ancient Judaism, one sees that Jesus was teaching much of the same things that others were as well.

I also never called Jesus a religion founder. He was a Jew, spreading a Jewish message, to other Jews. So it doesn't matter whether or not a religion founder would have been notices, as Jesus was no such thing.

The major difference between Jesus and any handful of various other religious leaders of that time was that people eventually wrote about him. He was nothing radically new.

As for no secular historian mentioning him, really doesn't matter when one considers that there is hardly any mention of the area period by secular historians.

In fact, it is not until Josephus that we end up getting information about a handful of other religious leaders around that time. In particular interest, Josephus mentions a figure called the "Egyptian" who is also briefly mentioned in the Bible (Paul is confused with him). According to Josephus, the Egyptian led thousands to their deaths after he planned on marching on Jerusalem in a symbolic act (forcing images of the OT and the entry into the holy land). No secular historian mentions this. Actually, Josephus mentions various people with similar stories, and no secular historians mention this.

No secular historians mention John the Baptist either, yet he is also an accepted historical figure. No secular historians mention Paul, yet we know he existed (and he led quite a big movement, all over the Empire).

No secular historians really means very little in the grand scheme of things.
No, it's easier for me to discount the historical Jesus altogether. I think he might have been some teacher from 100BC-50BC or so, whom the gospel writers took and placed into 33AD.
There is no credible evidence to assume that Jesus is based off of a figure from 100-50 B.C.E. That idea did rise up nearly a century ago; however, has been debunked thoroughly many times since then.
Again, it depends on Jesus' actual behavior. Did he throw over the money tables and **** off the religious establishment? If so, I think he'd've had plenty of literate enemies. Yet we hear nothing like that from them. I see them as scratching their heads and asking, "Jesus Who?"
Not really when one understands the actual situation. First, many people had a problem with the temple. There were many Jews who were split on the Temple. They loved it for what is stood for, but had major problems with it because of how it was being ran. Jesus was just one more person in that respect.

Second, the actual commotion Jesus would have committed is quite small. First, it would have only been a few tables (not even close enough to close down the operation). Second, it was in the Gentile area. Yes, it may have aggravated some people, such as the Sadducees, but they also were not necessarily literate.

Finally, this seems quite small compared to what the Egyptian did, who had a multitude of people who were going to march on Jerusalem. And yet, no one mentioned this event either until Josephus. You need to place the event into a historical context, and more so, you need to know that historical context.
I tell them that I'm happy to doubt the historicity of those historical figures. And I ask them if they're likewise happy to doubt the historicity of Jesus... usually receiving a dead silence for my efforts.

That refusal to acknowledge doubt about the historical Jesus is another good clue that his historicity is rooted more in personal psychology than in actual scholarship.
According to who? That isn't even sound logic. The reason few doubt a historical reason is the same reason few doubt a historical Augustus. There is no real reason to assume they didn't exist. As for the actual scholarship, have you even read any of it? Because by your statement here, it is hard to believe that you have.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Because it conforms to your presuppositions. (And I seriously doubt that you've accurately reflected anything that could pass for scholarship.)
I didn't presuppose anything here. This is what he taught me. He is a highly-respected scholar, and I trust his teaching.
 

jelly

Active Member
how many visiting jews recorded something about jesus?
care to put this in perspective...
about how many visiting jews would have not recorded something about jesus.
I really don't know that much about jesus, but I figure if the guy was hanging on a cross outside the city and not in the public crucifixion area and about 60,000 jews would have noticed.
so there is at least 60,000 jews that didn't say the "hey the crucifixion area has moved..."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
care to put this in perspective...
about how many visiting jews would have not recorded something about jesus.
I really don't know that much about jesus, but I figure if the guy was hanging on a cross outside the city and not in the public crucifixion area and about 60,000 jews would have noticed.
so there is at least 60,000 jews that didn't say the "hey the crucifixion area has moved..."

I'm not sure what your point is, or where you get your numbers.

Crucifixions were normally carried out outside the city along a road so passerby could see the humiliation of the executed.

I can't possibly imagine that 60k people would notice Jesus, and none of them would be particularly eager to record the anonymous death of a criminal.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Isn't Luke [3 vs1,2] secular evidence in that the people mentioned there were real historical people ?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but since the gospels are pretty much by definition 'not secular,' I'll answer No.

You're welcome to paraphrase your question.
 

jelly

Active Member
I'm not sure what your point is, or where you get your numbers.

Crucifixions were normally carried out outside the city along a road so passerby could see the humiliation of the executed.

I can't possibly imagine that 60k people would notice Jesus, and none of them would be particularly eager to record the anonymous death of a criminal.
I figure it was passover during the time the guy should have been hanging on a cross so there would have been an influx of jews.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
This is actually a point that makes little sense. It is based off of the assumption that plagiarism and editing only exist in fictional genres. That simply is not true.

Nah. You apparently have no good idea what I'm saying, but it certainly isn't "plagiariam only happens in fiction."

This is a clear example of why I hesitate to engage you. I'm looking for those who will not waste my time by radicalizing my position into Black & White and then swatting down Mr. Black.

That is what the synoptic Gospels did. We can look at Luke. He basically tells us that he is writing a historic account. He tells us that he is relying on older sources, both written and oral. And comparing it to other works, we can even pick out some of these sources. That is what one would expect in a historical writing, not a fictional rewrite. Unless you believe that nearly any work on a historical figure is fictional, because those same techniques are used even up to today (for the most part, new authors do cite their sources, but there are exceptions).

Yikes. I've never had a person absolutely refuse to address my actual issue -- while pretending to do so -- with quite the persistance as you are doing.

I'm not going to spend my time with your other points, Blood -- not unless one of them jumps out at me.

If you won't address my issue of the synoptic gospels head-on, I really don't have time for discussion with you.

Would anyone else like to address that issue with me? The synoptic gospels look like plagiarism -- by which I mean that whole strings of text are used to retell the Jesus story from one gospel to another.

To me, this looks like rewriting of an original fictional story. That's the only place I've seen such rewrites -- stacked in the back of fictionalists' closets.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's a better explanation. I'm ready if anyone would care to present it.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
The reason few doubt a historical reason is the same reason few doubt a historical Augustus.

Sure. Intellectual arrogance mostly, I think.

There is no real reason to assume they didn't exist.

For those of us who accept our own intellectual fallibility, it's not an either/or issue.

As for the actual scholarship, have you even read any of it? Because by your statement here, it is hard to believe that you have.

Hey, could I so easily run circles around you in this sort of debate if I weren't familiar with the subject matter?

Well... umm... come to think of it... probably so.:)
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Nah. You apparently have no good idea what I'm saying, but it certainly isn't "plagiariam only happens in fiction."

This is a clear example of why I hesitate to engage you. I'm looking for those who will not waste my time by radicalizing my position into Black & White and then swatting down Mr. Black.
Taking one statement of mine, thus taking it out of context, is not how you successfully debate someone. Now, if that is not your point (if you read what I fully said, you would see that I qualified that statement and expanded it, addressing exactly what you said), then clarify it.
Yikes. I've never had a person absolutely refuse to address my actual issue -- while pretending to do so -- with quite the persistance as you are doing.

I'm not going to spend my time with your other points, Blood -- not unless one of them jumps out at me.

If you won't address my issue of the synoptic gospels head-on, I really don't have time for discussion with you.

Would anyone else like to address that issue with me? The synoptic gospels look like plagiarism -- by which I mean that whole strings of text are used to retell the Jesus story from one gospel to another.

To me, this looks like rewriting of an original fictional story. That's the only place I've seen such rewrites -- stacked in the back of fictionalists' closets.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's a better explanation. I'm ready if anyone would care to present it.
I addressed your issue. I have done this more than once. You took one small section of my response, and try to act as if that is all I said. However, I expanded on that, making sure I addressed your issue.

More so, I addressed the issue of plagiarism in a pervious section, which ironically, you also mentioned in this post and said you weren't talking about plagiarism.

And there is a better explanation. I gave it to you. You simply refuse to address it, and then you complain that I won't address it. Really, I'm coming to the conclusion you can't support your point, so all you can do is whine an complain that I won't address what you're saying or that I don't understand what you're saying. That is a childish tactic.
 
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