The Jesus Myth

[Desert Snake]

why not doubt?

True, but there has to be sensibility behind the doubt. Factors that have to be taken into account are, to name a few... The culture from which the stories originate. The man/deity in question, His attributes, personality, and acquaintances, the time period, i.e pre-history as compared to more recent history (Rome).

And then there are the written references referring to Jesus that also have to be taken into account.

 

[jelly]

well there is this idea that some people subscribe to that during a time of year a certain religious group make a pilgrimage to a city where the jesus guy supposedly existed.
yet I have not heard of one recording of uncle jim bob becoming a christian and saying "hey I was there during the time this guy lived and died!"

 

[jelly]

True, but there has to be sensibility behind the doubt. Factors that have to be taken into account are, to name a few... The culture from which the stories originate. The man/deity in question, His attributes, personality, and aquiantances, the time period, i.e pre-history as compared to more recent history (Rome).

And then there are the written references refferring to Jesus that also have to be taken into account.

I can testify that monkeys fly out of ...donkeys....
I can write it down.
I don't doubt there are testimonies from various people from various times in history about the qualities of a character that is fictional would have or did not have.
do you doubt monkeys fly out of ...donkeys... because of what I write or my testimony?
I don't doubt jesus ever existed because of testimony, that would be as bad as you believing that monkeys fly out of ...donkeys....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

this is what the OP asked

taking the position that a historical Jesus did in fact exist, but was not as the Bible portrays him.

Now that's the big question. How do we separate the man from the myth in the narrative? Do we simply dismiss the esoteric claims such as (walking on water, turning water into wine.....) and try and construct a Yeshua without the magic? If so then we're left with a wondering teacher who ruffled a few feathers.

 

[jelly]

... If so then we're left with a wondering teacher who ruffled a few feathers.

and this person you refer to wasn't noted in history by all the jews coming to the city during passover (because they are illiterate... as I have seen suggested by other people)
heck I claim the jews were blind and illiterate and some of them were walking on stilts when they went to the place where the jesus supposedly was hanging on a cross... because there is so little literature from the time...

 

[Desert Snake]

I can testify that monkeys fly out of ...donkeys....
I can write it down.
I don't doubt there are testimonies from various people from various times in history about the qualities of a character that is fictional would have or did not have.
do you doubt monkeys fly out of ...donkeys... because of what I write or my testimony?
I don't doubt jesus ever existed because of testimony, that would be as bad as you believing that monkeys fly out of ...donkeys....

Exactly. That's precisely why we can question the existence of thousands of other historical persons.

 

[jelly]

Exactly. That's precisely why we can question the existence of thousands of other historical persons.

I don't have a problem with that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

why not doubt?

Doubt is a good thing, almost always.

 

[outhouse]

Now that's the big question. How do we separate the man from the myth in the narrative? Do we simply dismiss the esoteric claims such as (walking on water, turning water into wine.....) and try and construct a Yeshua without the magic? If so then we're left with a wondering teacher who ruffled a few feathers.

thats all we are left with.

not much can be said beyond this with certainty.

A traveling teacher of judaism who was baptized ticked off the pharisees and romans who quickly killed him on a cross

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Now that's the big question. How do we separate the man from the myth in the narrative? Do we simply dismiss the esoteric claims such as (walking on water, turning water into wine.....) and try and construct a Yeshua without the magic? If so then we're left with a wondering teacher who ruffled a few feathers.

Some Jesus apologists discount the claims that he had multitudes of followers -- which explains why the Jewish historians didn't notice him.

But what about Paul's claim that he met the brother of Jesus? Why not discount that? It really seems to be about all there is that looks like real evidence.

If we are going to discount Biblical claims, I really can't see how the whole business makes a lot of sense. It looks more like accepting what we like and discounting what is inconvenient.

Yo, suddenly I am feeling a bit fundamentalist. Down with the Jesus Seminar!

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

thats all we are left with.

not much can be said beyond this with certainty.

A traveling teacher of judaism who was baptized ticked off the pharisees and romans who quickly killed him on a cross

And that can be said only by the certain.

 

[outhouse]

And that can be said only by the certain.

did I state that

 

[Desert Snake]

Some people claim that the Buddha didn't exist, but that's another thread.

 

[outhouse]

what it comes down to is this IS the most epic story in the last two thousand years.

Its built around many historical figures, the bible didnt make these figures up and reports about them. Many are not nor have ever been in question.

ancient hebrews would take a event and build a story around said event, the story may have changed the event but that doesnt mean the event never happened

there is a good case that there is no historical jeusus

BUT

there is a better case for a real ancient hebrew who taught judaism and was crucified that started a movement away from standard judaism

 

[Dirty Penguin]

thats all we are left with.

not much can be said beyond this with certainty.

A traveling teacher of judaism who was baptized ticked off the pharisees and romans who quickly killed him on a cross

True, but how can we be certain he was baptized and killed by the hanging on a cross?

 

[outhouse]

one standing onthe outside looking in and judging is doing so from a stance of ignorance.

If one does the work and has a case to present then so bo it. I would love more info one way or the other as I have no bias on the subject at all. I have however put allot of time in this before I was swayed from complete non belief in historical jesus

 

[outhouse]

True, but how can we be certain he was baptized and killed by the hanging on a cross?

you know i'll butcher this but here goes lol

neither of those two are out of the ordinary for a first century hebrew

John was a historical figure and no reason why jesus would not be baptized by him based on the possible words he preached and area he is said to live in

the crucifiction is a given for someone who even raised a eyebrow to sadducees/pharisees and romans, allthough typically a punishment for a severe crime pilot was brutal and a jewish trouble maker would have found himslef on a cross quickly during that time with the unrest in the city. pilot may have not even seen jesus and just given the order after a report of capture

 

[jelly]

what it comes down to is this IS the most epic story in the last two thousand years...

that is not what it comes down to.
they story is just a rehash of prior tales.
what it comes down to is that people take it seriously.

 

[idav]

Now that's the big question. How do we separate the man from the myth in the narrative? Do we simply dismiss the esoteric claims such as (walking on water, turning water into wine.....) and try and construct a Yeshua without the magic? If so then we're left with a wondering teacher who ruffled a few feathers.

I'm sure there were people who attempted being the messiah and may have tried to perform miracles from the OT. A real jesus though I'm not sure. They got the sayings from somewhere and older records like the gospel of thomas have all the sayings without any mention of miracles.

 

[fallingblood]

have you explored the work of the Jesus Seminar?

To a point. I have followed various members more though, such as Crossan, and Borg.