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The "Kangaroo Court" Debate Style

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Seeing our past theory as having been wrong, in hindsight, does not make our present theory right by default. But a lot of us choose to believe this, anyway. Even though, logically, every time it happens, we should be assuming that it is happening, still.

You're not describing the full story though, are you. Sure, sometimes we are completely and utterly wrong, not even in the stadium let alone left field. Sometimes.

Other times we are well within the ballpark, and of those times we are getting hits and making it on base. You get the idea so I won’t continue to strain the metaphor.

If our theory has explanatory power, then it is getting something right, and something is more than sufficient to continue building upon.

If we look at how far Homo sapiens have come in our understanding over the last 100 to 200 thousand years, it is quite apparent that we are not always wrong wrong. :)

One that can never "catch up". It's always seeking truth in hindsight. But the truth doesn't live in hindsight.

In the immortal words of Dory from Finding Nemo, “Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming…”

The problem is that we don't know how much we don't know.

Yeah, you really get bogged down with this. My advice, “Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming…”

So we can't know how much it would fundamentally change what we think we do know, if we knew it. We just pretend that what we think we know is mostly right. But in fact we have no way whatever of justifying that presumption. Even when we apply our theory and it function in the moment and under the circumstances, that doesn't mean it's right. It just means it worked for us, that time, when applied.

If it’s working, it’s “right” enough. Continuing to work the problem from that new and working vantage point allows us to work on, and eventually solve the next step, as has been more than established as we look back at how far we have come.

A lot of people are fighting this realization. They want their gods or their scientism to overcome this scary dilemma of our perpetual unknowing for them. And so they want to fight with anyone that dares to contradict that desire.

I dare to contradict that desire. It's my gift to you all.

That psychological issue is a different problem than whether we can actually know anything. Are there those who crave certainty? Absolutely. Whether becoming comfortable with uncertainty is a possibility for them will vary by individual I suppose.

All it shows us is that our theories sometimes work according to our desires, under certain circumstances. But we are stupid and selfish humans, so even that little bit of self-service is enough for us to pretend we got reality and truth, licked.

Mischaracterization here. Theories work because they are predictive and have yet to be contradicted in some way. What we do with that understanding relates more to our desires.

Yes, we can be stupid and selfish to varying degrees. Not really relevant to whether we can objectively know things.

"Objectivity" is an illusion. A false conceptual idol. It's very similar to what the "inerrant Bible" is to some fundi-theists.

Opinion noted. I strongly disagree.

Interestingly, we can know that we don't know without knowing what we don't know. So your attempt, here, at the "nut-huh, YOU did!" argument doesn't work. :)

In referencing all that is unknown, whatever that may entail, since it is unknown, nothing can be said about it. Not how much of it remains to be known, not whether we have or can have the capacity to understand what remains to be known. We can assign no characteristics or properties to unknown things of which we have no knowledge.

Your characterizing yet unknown truths (or perhaps the as yet unknown “whole truth”) as “holistic beyond the capacity of our binary mental processes” would be an example of this.

"Facts" are just bits of information that appear true relative to other bits of information that appear true. But their truthfulness contradict all the time, depending what other facts we relate them to. So it would be a very big mistake in logic to assume that facts equate to reality or truth. And therefor, that so does the logic applied to them.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck ….

Happens all the time. Haven't you been paying attention to OUR conversations? :)

Try too. :)

And every single one of them limited, flawed, and trapped by their circumstances. Even if we could see the world through every one of their minds eyes, at once, we still would be stuck in the same human condition that we're stuck in, now.

Fortunately, the billions of us are not flawed and fallible in exactly the same ways. In any set of characteristics or traits you care to name, we all vary to some degree or other in every one of them. We each truly are snowflakes.

Again, look back 100,000 years and fully appreciate how very unstuck we actually are.


I know. But you'll thank me someday for tellig you that we can't. Well, "mitigate", a little bit, maybe. But certainly not overcome.

Oooh, a bit of a concession there on your part. I’ll take it. :)
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Thing is though, what you described is how I feel debates are suppose to work.

If one side says "I believe X", and the other side says "That sounds great", that's not a debate.

In debates, two sides go at it, in order to try to convince the crowd (though they may still make statements like "I don't believe..." about something, or point out how it's wrong.)

More often though, there is a mismatch - one poster doesn't know how to do formal debates, and the other does, leading to one poster simply posting their personal opinions, and the other treating it like a formal debate and refuting them quickly, and being a bit relentless about it - especially given the other poster doesn't know formal debate style and simply posts opinions that are very personal to them (which is often an intellectual taboo for formal debates).

I agree. Though I would add that it is never appropriate to be rude in forum like this.

My question to the person who feels the way the OP describes is "what do you actually want from this interaction?". Do you just want to state your belief and have someone acknowledge it? Write a blog. Do you want to get into an echo chamber with people that share your beliefs? No problem there, but stick to the DIR areas. On the other hand, if you actually want to persuade people that your beliefs are correct, I'm afraid that you will meet some people who will tell you that they are not and some will do so quite forcefully. In the last case, there are options that don't include complaining about other peoples' debating styles. For example, you don't have to answer everything that is addressed to you. There's an "ignore" feature if you want to use it.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So you are basically saying that the judicial truth is not the same thing as historical truth. Right?

I'm saying that "judicial truth" is not a thing, so no, it's not any kind of truth, historical or otherwise.

"History" or "historical" are abstract category labels that we create to help organize the things we think about. Facts are facts are facts. Some facts we may use in historical arguments and conclusions. Those same facts may be used in a legal proceeding. Facts themselves do not "belong" to any of our abstract categories that we merely create for our convenience.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You're not describing the full story though, are you. Sure, sometimes we are completely and utterly wrong, not even in the stadium let alone left field. Sometimes.

Other times we are well within the ballpark, and of those times we are getting hits and making it on base. You get the idea so I won’t continue to strain the metaphor.

If our theory has explanatory power, then it is getting something right, and something is more than sufficient to continue building upon.

If we look at how far Homo sapiens have come in our understanding over the last 100 to 200 thousand years, it is quite apparent that we are not always wrong wrong. :)
But the question is by what criteria are you determining getting it "right"? And it appears to me that your criteria is that if functional (physical) manipulation achieves a desired outcome then it must be an "objective" truth. And this does not stand up to logical scrutiny.
If it’s working, it’s “right” enough.
Actually, it's functional enough (to achieve our momentary desire). What's "right" about it is purely a subjective value assessment.
Continuing to work the problem from that new and working vantage point allows us to work on, and eventually solve the next step, as has been more than established as we look back at how far we have come.
The problem is that functionality is not wisdom. Nor does ot gain us wisdom. And wisdom is required of us to apply this ever-increasing functionality to positive effect. Something that we humans are currently NOT doing. And this is a recipe for disaster.
That psychological issue is a different problem than whether we can actually know anything. Are there those who crave certainty? Absolutely. Whether becoming comfortable with uncertainty is a possibility for them will vary by individual I suppose.
We are a collective, cooperative, inter-dependent species. This inability to accept uncertainty is a kind of collective mental illness that is getting worse as science continues to create this illusion in us that "we are in control". We are not in control. We are poisoning our only survivable habitat. We are killing each other trying to gain control over everything and everyone around us. We are at war with ourselves, with each other, and with the whole world because we want so badly to be in control of our own destinies, and we are so convinced that we can get that control by force.
Mischaracterization here. Theories work because they are predictive and have yet to be contradicted in some way. What we do with that understanding relates more to our desires.
That's just unnecessary verbiage. They work when they do what we want them to do ... when they give us the illusion of control. And they don't work when they don't do that. And we foolishly pretend that this illusion of control is "knowing the truth".

This is exactly the lack of wisdom that is threatening to destroy us by our own hand.
Yes, we can be stupid and selfish to varying degrees. Not really relevant to whether we can objectively know things.
Objectivity is a fantasy. Our stupidity is not a fantasy. It's very real. And it will destroy us if we don't learn to acknowledge it and reign it in. Preteding that science is our new "God" is NOT going to achieve that.
In referencing all that is unknown, whatever that may entail, since it is unknown, nothing can be said about it.
Except that it is there, and that it effects EVERYTHING we think we know in ways that we cannot even imagine.
Not how much of it remains to be known, not whether we have or can have the capacity to understand what remains to be known. We can assign no characteristics or properties to unknown things of which we have no knowledge.
Except that it is there, and that it effects EVERYTHING we think we know in ways that we cannot even imagine.
Your characterizing yet unknown truths (or perhaps the as yet unknown “whole truth”) as “holistic beyond the capacity of our binary mental processes” would be an example of this.
You're still trying to float that old "Nut-huh, YOU did" silliness. Forget it. It's never going to float. Because I (we) can know that we don't know without knowing what we don't know. And we do know that what we don't know will effect what we think we know even though we don't know how or how much.
Fortunately, the billions of us are not flawed and fallible in exactly the same ways.
Actually, we are ALL flawed and fallible in very much the same ways.
In any set of characteristics or traits you care to name, we all vary to some degree or other in every one of them. We each truly are snowflakes.
Except that we are all still humans beings, bound by the profound limitations of our human structure, environment, and experience. Relative to the universe we have gone nowhere and done nothing. And we still have no idea where we came from, why we're here, or what is expected of us, if anything.

It's not exactly a position from which to be bragging about how smart we think we are.
Again, look back 100,000 years and fully appreciate how very unstuck we actually are.
Not really seeing it, dude. We still haven't even managed to govern ourselves according to our resources, yet. And it sure doesn't look like we'll be achieving that anytime soon.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I'm saying that "judicial truth" is not a thing, so no, it's not any kind of truth, historical or otherwise.

"History" or "historical" are abstract category labels that we create to help organize the things we think about. Facts are facts are facts. Some facts we may use in historical arguments and conclusions. Those same facts may be used in a legal proceeding. Facts themselves do not "belong" to any of our abstract categories that we merely create for our convenience.
One question: do you believe in God? :)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Which one? :)

Curious as to how the question relates to debate style and what a fact is.
A deity. in general. And if you can specify, better.
I need to make a point, so I need to bring up your beliefs.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A deity. in general. And if you can specify, better.
I need you to make a point, so I need to bring up your beliefs.

I am aware of a great many abstract conceptions of entities that have been envisioned by human beings over many millennia, all of which I am quite confident do not actually exist other than as human abstract concepts. As there is no indication whatsoever that such claimed entities are even possible, let alone be said to exist, I do not entertain even the possibility of such things.

Hope that helps in your effort to make me make a point. :)
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Respect is something you have towards any person who is nice to you.
Politeness requires it.

I disagree. I have had respect for people that were not particularly "nice", but proved to be either experts in their field or very successful in some practical endeavor. On the other hand, I have known people that are very "nice" in their dealings with others and that I liked a lot, but that I have had little respect for in many ways. It is perhaps to polite to show respect to people in our every day life, but actual respect is earned and not necessarily linked to "niceness".

As an example, I had more than one teacher at school whose knowledge of their subject I respected quite highly, but that I considered to be rude jerks in their interactions with me.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I disagree. I have had respect for people that were not particularly "nice", but proved to be either experts in their field or very successful in some practical endeavor. On the other hand, I have known people that are very "nice" in their dealings with others and that I liked a lot, but that I have had little respect for in many ways. It is perhaps to polite to show respect to people in our every day life, but actual respect is earned and not necessarily linked to "niceness".

As an example, I had more than one teacher at school whose knowledge of their subject I respected quite highly, but that I considered to be rude jerks in their interactions with me.
But maybe I am confused about the word respect.
Can you define it?

It's a word that comes from Latin, respicio, respexi, respectum, which means to have at heart (the others, in this case).
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So the next time someone says to you "the burden of proof is on you" ... beware. Because they are very likely inviting you into their Kangaroo courtroom, where they have no intention whatever of considering anything you might actually have to offer them in terms of understanding realty or truth. But instead intend just to feed their ego and ignorance at your expense.

I know that on RF I frequently get into "citation battles", I suspect this is an example of what you're talking about?

If so, then a related problem is one of obfuscation. When taken to extremes, repeated requests for citations can become sea-lioning, which is a form of trolling.

Another issue with "citation battles" is that many posters refuse to separate the message from the messenger. So if poster A provides a citation, by all rights it SHOULD be evaluated on its merits. A citation that's loaded with precise, falsifiable claims needs to be accepted, no matter who created the cited document in the first place. But too often a citation is criticized because of the source. The source of a citation should not matter. What matters is the inclusion of precise, falsifiable claims.

Another issue with "citation battles" is that the poster who demands citations is to some degree -as you said - assuming some god-like authority. As if the poster who demands citations is the final arbiter of what's common knowledge and what is not.

FWIW, if I'm in a debate and a poster makes a claim I haven't heard, I frequently use my handy search engine to do a little research. I think that this should be a much more common practice. For one thing, it assumes that your opponent is debating in good faith.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
But maybe I am confused about the word respect.
Can you define it?

It's a word that comes from Latin, respicio, respexi, respectum, which means to have at heart (the others, in this case).

The way I use it, it refers to an positive assessment of some quality that a person has. Here's a dictionary definition.

respect /rĭ-spĕkt′/

transitive verb

  1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem or admire.
    "All the other scholars respect her."
  2. To avoid interfering with or intruding upon.
    "Please respect my privacy."
  3. To avoid violating.
    "I respected the speed limit throughout the trip."

It's #1 that I mean. My point is that it doesn't have to be related to a person's "niceness" (though I suppose one could respect that). To give another example, I once worked for a manager who was very pleasant and polite in his dealings with everyone, but never accomplished anything of value in his job. I liked him a lot, but had little to no respect for him as a manager.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I know that on RF I frequently get into "citation battles", I suspect this is an example of what you're talking about?

If so, then a related problem is one of obfuscation. When taken to extremes, repeated requests for citations can become sea-lioning, which is a form of trolling.
Yes it can. It seems to be a common tactic of the trollistically (like the new word?) inclined. To avoid addressing the point by constantly asking for more details or explanations that can be citations but don't have to be. A more honest approach when you doubt the truth of a statement is to present evidence that refutes it.
Another issue with "citation battles" is that many posters refuse to separate the message from the messenger. So if poster A provides a citation, by all rights it SHOULD be evaluated on its merits. A citation that's loaded with precise, falsifiable claims needs to be accepted, no matter who created the cited document in the first place. But too often a citation is criticized because of the source. The source of a citation should not matter. What matters is the inclusion of precise, falsifiable claims.
True sometimes, but not always. For example, if the subject is creationism, a quote from AiG should probably be viewed with suspicion.
Another issue with "citation battles" is that the poster who demands citations is to some degree -as you said - assuming some god-like authority. As if the poster who demands citations is the final arbiter of what's common knowledge and what is not.
Ah, here I disagree. On the face of it a request for a citation is not denying the truth of what is said, but asking the person to support it, which implies at least some possibility that it might be correct. At one end of the scale it's "I've never heard that, where did you get it from?"
FWIW, if I'm in a debate and a poster makes a claim I haven't heard, I frequently use my handy search engine to do a little research. I think that this should be a much more common practice. For one thing, it assumes that your opponent is debating in good faith.

I do agree here, but because it's laziness. You are asking someone to do all the work. At least do a little investigation yourself.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The way I use it, it refers to an positive assessment of some quality that a person has. Here's a dictionary definition.

respect /rĭ-spĕkt′/

transitive verb

  1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem or admire.
    "All the other scholars respect her."
  2. To avoid interfering with or intruding upon.
    "Please respect my privacy."
  3. To avoid violating.
    "I respected the speed limit throughout the trip."

It's #1 that I mean. My point is that it doesn't have to be related to a person's "niceness" (though I suppose one could respect that). To give another example, I once worked for a manager who was very pleasant and polite in his dealings with everyone, but never accomplished anything of value in his job. I liked him a lot, but had little to no respect for him as a manager.
All of us judge others.
Or misjudge others.
But that should not make us biased interlocutors in a debate.
Meaning: I can misjudge a person on the basis of personal bias, but that doesn't authorize me to disrespect them, during a debate.
;)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I know that on RF I frequently get into "citation battles", I suspect this is an example of what you're talking about?

If so, then a related problem is one of obfuscation. When taken to extremes, repeated requests for citations can become sea-lioning, which is a form of trolling.
The whole problem with demanding "citations" is, 1. the assumption that they somehow endow validity just because they come from someone, somewhere else, and 2. they reveal nothing of what the actual person we are talking with is thinking.

I refuse to go down that rabbit hole when people try to throw it in front of me because I know it will have no "bottom". The kangaroo judge will NEVER find ANY citation I provide for them to their liking, or to be valid enough. And this being the internet, it will be no problem for them to dig of some counter-citation to oppose it. So it's just a bottomless rabbit hole intended to derail the debate when the "judge" can't come up with any better method of invalidating my (his "opponent's") position.

Also, I am quite capable of offering my own reasoning in my own words, for my position, and doing it clearly enough that anyone who is actually trying to understand it, will. So that's what I do. And then when they still refuse to grasp it, I know they aren't going to. And we're done then.
Another issue with "citation battles" is that many posters refuse to separate the message from the messenger. So if poster A provides a citation, by all rights it SHOULD be evaluated on its merits. A citation that's loaded with precise, falsifiable claims needs to be accepted, no matter who created the cited document in the first place. But too often a citation is criticized because of the source. The source of a citation should not matter. What matters is the inclusion of precise, falsifiable claims.
Falsifiibility is mostly irrelevant. I know it's next to 'godliness' to the scientism crowd, but I'm not in that cult, and I don't worship it the way they seem to think we all absolutely must do. I'm far more of a philosopher than a scientist (actually I'm an artist) so I really don't care much about falsifiability. That aspect of philosophy is found in the application of formal logic as a means of testing the viability of a philosophical construct. And I'm happy to engage in that way.
Another issue with "citation battles" is that the poster who demands citations is to some degree -as you said - assuming some god-like authority. As if the poster who demands citations is the final arbiter of what's common knowledge and what is not.
Yep. And in many instances that is why the demand is issued. NOT because the person demanding it has any desire to actually investigate the proposal.
FWIW, if I'm in a debate and a poster makes a claim I haven't heard, I frequently use my handy search engine to do a little research. I think that this should be a much more common practice. For one thing, it assumes that your opponent is debating in good faith.
I do too. Also when I see folks using terms that I know will have different implication within different intellectual disciplines. And I like it when they do that for me, in advance. :)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I am aware of a great many abstract conceptions of entities that have been envisioned by human beings over many millennia, all of which I am quite confident do not actually exist other than as human abstract concepts.
But they do exist as concepts of reality. Like beauty or justice, for example, exist as concepts of reality.
As there is no indication whatsoever that such claimed entities are even possible, let alone be said to exist,
Well, clearly they are possible, as they are occurring. And clearly they do exist as concepts of the reality of our existence. So why aren't these registering in your mind as existential possibilities when they are, in fact, existential realities? What is blinding or blocking you from recognizing this?
I do not entertain even the possibility of such things.
Why not, when they are clearly a significant part of our existential experience?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Respect is something you have towards any person who is nice to you.
That's a different meaning of respect than the meaning in the comment to which you replied: "So if I say "The World is flat" or "Evolution is a lie", I deserve the same respect as the scientist that studies these topics." He's talking about holding somebody who has distinguished themselves in some way in high esteem because of who he or what he has done. Another meaning is closer to tolerance or forbearance, which is what I believe you mean. So if I say that I don't respect your opinions - perhaps your religious or political opinions - but I respect your right to hold and express them, I am using the word in two different senses.
by what criteria are you determining getting it "right"?
Pragmatically (you used the term functionality), as Mike suggested. Truth has no meaning divorced from any eventual decision making process. The whole point of belief itself is to inform decisions and drive actions. Actions then influence events in the external world, and those effects lead to objective consequences. Take away any of these elements and truth immediately loses all relevance.

We should expect similar decisions made under similar circumstances to lead to similar outcomes. Pragmatism says that the ultimate measure of a true or false proposition lies in its capacity to produce expected results. If an idea is true, it can be used in the real world to generate predictable consequences, and different ones if that idea turned out to be false. In other words, the ultimate measure of a true proposition is the capacity to inform decisions under the expectation of desirable consequences.

All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is true, then doing A will achieve D. If A fails to achieve D, then B is false. Either you agree that truth should be measured by its capacity to inform decisions and produce results or you don't. If you agree, then we can have a conversation. And if we disagree about some belief, we have a means to decide the issue.

And if that's not your definition of truth or correct or right or knowledge, then whatever else is has no practical value. If this is not how your epistemology works - how you define truth - then we can't have a discussion, and I literally don't care what you think, since it has no effect on anything, and such ideas don't deserve to be called true or knowledge.

This is how I feel about people's opinions about a god they believe in. Such ideas can't be used for anything except to comfort those that can be comforted by them. I'm not one of them, so such ideas don't even have that much value to me, and when others talk about spiritual truths in reference to their supernatural metaphysics, their words mean nothing to me.

it appears to me that your criteria is that if functional (physical) manipulation achieves a desired outcome then it must be an "objective" truth.
I didn't see him use that phrase, but I haven't been following closely.

You like to talk about things like absolute truth or objective truth - truth from no individual perspective. We don't have access to that, nor do we need it. We only need to know what I just described above - how certain actions produce certain outcomes so that we can have whatever control of our experience is available to us.

As I said, objective truth, or truth not from any individual or collective vantage point (interobserver consensus) is neither available to us nor more useful than what IS available to us, which is knowledge of how the world works from the perspective of the individual subject. He can make this MORE objective by noting that some things appear to be true for everybody, such as that the sun appears yellow and is warm and bright from the surface of earth on a clear, sunny day, and some are true only for some, such as liking broccoli, but he can never get outside minds and their perspectives, and once again, there would be no apparent value if he could.
The problem is that functionality is not wisdom. Nor does ot gain us wisdom. And wisdom is required of us to apply this ever-increasing functionality to positive effect.
I can agree with that in the main. If intelligence is the ability to identify and solve problems and accomplish short-term goals by exploiting opportunities and avoiding pitfalls, wisdom is the knowledge of which solutions bring (relatively) lasting happiness. They are both knowledge, and both are learned empirically in the manner I just described (trial and error).

Thus, one might be intelligent enough to earn a lot of money, but not wise enough to understand the limitations of that, and though he accomplished his goal of making money, he might fail to accomplish his greater goal of finding satisfaction which he thought came from being wealthy. It's all learned pragmatically if it's learned at all.

Trump is a good example of somebody who accomplished his initial goal of acquiring fame, fortune, and power, but I am pretty sure that those only produced initial satisfaction, and of course, there is no wisdom in that man. He never learned what makes a person happy, and now, he will be miserable for the rest of his life. If you're happier than he is, then you've made wiser choices, and that comes from understanding how the world works and how that affects oneself.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
That's a different meaning of respect than the meaning in the comment to which you replied: "So if I say "The World is flat" or "Evolution is a lie", I deserve the same respect as the scientist that studies these topics." He's talking about holding somebody who has distinguished themselves in some way in high esteem because of who he or what he has done.
That's not what respect is.
That's reliability.
Let's say a theist believes that evolution is a lie, and won't talk to atheists.
Is he respecting atheists?
Another meaning is closer to tolerance or forbearance, which is what I believe you mean. So if I say that I don't respect your opinions - perhaps your religious or political opinions - but I respect your right to hold and express them, I am using the word in two different senses.
Respect has just one meaning.
The second you said.
:)
You confuse respect with reliability.

I can say: I don't think that that Young Earth Scientists are reliable, but I respect themì and their right to spread their ideas.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But they do exist as concepts of reality. Like beauty or justice, for example, exist as concepts of reality.

What are concepts though? They are abstract constructs meant to represent something. These abstractions can be used to represent physically existing things in reality or they can refer to other, more complex abstract constructions built of multiple constructs. These more complex abstractions would be considered concepts.

Abstractions have no properties or characteristics in and of themselves. They are simply representations. The set of what can be represented is infinite and undefined, really only limited by our capacity to imagine them. There are no rules of association in how abstract representations can be used and combined to create concepts except as defined within the boundaries and rules governing an abstract system, systems we create for organizing and using abstractions in a useful and meaningful way. Examples of such systems include mathematics and human language systems.

These abstractions of representation, once established/created/invented, can be encoded and stored in many physical forms to enable us to share these abstractions. For example, our abstract references can be encoded in body movements, such as pointing, they can be encoded in sounds and verbal utterances. They can be encoded in symbol, picture, or alphabetic systems. But first and foremost, they are encoded and stored within the physical neuro-physiological systems that comprise the central nervous system of organisms that use abstract representations.

Well, clearly they are possible, as they are occurring. And clearly they do exist as concepts of the reality of our existence. So why aren't these registering in your mind as existential possibilities when they are, in fact, existential realities? What is blinding or blocking you from recognizing this?

What does it mean to say that a purely analytic abstraction is possible or occurring? Using my obnoxious primmer on abstractions above, let's explore that question.

If I have two abstract representations that point to two physically existing things in reality, the first being an African lion and the second being a golden eagle, I can, in my mind, break that abstraction into parts, creating separate abstract representations for those parts, be they head, legs, tail, etc. None of these representations has *any* physical properties or limits on association with other abstractions. They are not independently real and existent except as representations, not the actual thing or category of thing it is meant to represent.

I can thus imagine the representation of the lion, remove the head from that representation and replace it with that of the abstract representation of the head of an eagle, add the representation of eagle wings to the lion body representation, and replace the representation of lion fore-paws with that of eagle feet and talons. I have now created, in my mind, an abstraction that no longer references anything that physically exists, but is composed of representations of things that do physically exist, lion bodies, eagle heads, etc. It would now be useful to create an abstract reference for this new, purely abstract creation so that I may easily refer to it without having to continually “rebuild it” in explanation. I therefore assign the name label ‘Griffin’ to my creation, and once I share the label and its construction definition to my friends, we can simply use the abstract concept label ‘Griffin’ to reference and talk about it.

I can also add other properties to this creation if I wish, like the ability to shoot laser beams out of its eyes, make it impervious to fire, give it a sentient mind comparable to that of human beings with the added feature of telepathic communication, etc. As pure abstractions, there is no restriction on the association of abstractions unless we create some rules or a complete abstract system of boundaries, rules, etc.

For the ‘Griffin’ to be an “existential possibility” in the physical world of reality, it would have to comport with and conform to the limitations and constraint governing the properties and characteristics of physical reality. This is physically impossible, as one cannot simply scale up a real eagle head to proportionally fit a real lion's body, scale up real functional eagle wings, etc.

Could science advance in the future such that one could create an organism with an eagle-like head, a lion-like body, and at most non-functional set of wings (due to limitations imposed aerodynamic requirements to be functional). Perhaps, but that would not be our abstract analytic construct of ‘Griffin’ we created, because ‘Griffin’ was not coined to represent an actual physically existent thing. The creators of some futuristic genetically modified monster can label their creation with whatever abstract label they wish. If they wish to co-op the name label ‘Griffin’, perhaps as an homage to the imaginative person who first created the abstract analytic construct, that is perfectly fine.

The point of all of this is to say that merely making fanciful associations of abstract constructs in no way confers nor enables existential possibility as a physically existent thing, or as an objectively existing thing outside of, and wholly independent of abstraction.

Why not [entertain the possibility of purely abstract entities actually existing independent of thought], when they are clearly a significant part of our existential experience?

Purely analytic abstract constructs and concepts do play a significant role in our existential experience. Things like currency valuation, governmental entities, ethical and legal systems are all indispensable in our large, complex, modern societies. Shared and accepted abstractions affect how people behave and interact with each other.

Why then reject the multitude of entities that have been claimed to exist over millennia? I reject them because they are created within artificial abstract “worlds” claimed to represent actual reality, to be synthetic to, and correspond with actual reality, objective and independent of abstractions of the mind. They do not.

Why are imaginary “actual” realities a problem? They are a problem because, as pure abstractions, they are infinite and boundless as to what they can be said to be and said to contain. They can be said to contain an infinite number of “realms” beyond the mere “physical”. They can assign properties to these realms that define them as immune from perception and detection of any kind such that they are impossible to be verified. Once the undetectable realm is created, it can be filled with whatever entities one likes, in any number and with whatever properties or characteristics one might imagine and claim that it is all objectively “real and existent”. These entities, once created, can be said to have ownership over us and that demand specific behaviors and actions from us, demands enforced, not by the claimed entity itself, but by the physically existing adherents of the artificially constructed reality.

Now, once the artificially constructed abstraction of imperceptible realms is accepted as “real”, anyone and everyone can project whatever they wish into this artificial construct, all of which are now immune from any type of evaluation or confirmation.

We are all familiar with the conflicts that arise between competing artificial abstract realities that have fixed and immutable requirements for human beings. Adoption of such fixed and immutable artificial “realities” creates rigidity in society that leads to stagnation and a decreased ability to adapt to a continually changing societal environment and world.

I much prefer dynamic and progressive abstract social systems that are grounded in *actual* Reality, the objective reality independent of thought, that are entered into by mutual agreement and that have the mechanisms to adeptly and successfully adapt to the reality of continual change.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can say: I don't think that that Young Earth Scientists are reliable, but I respect them and their right to spread their ideas.
I would say that I don't respect them or their opinions because I hold neither in high regard, but respect their right to hold them, because I'm not interested in imposing my beliefs on them and understand why that's the proper attitude in a free, civil society.
That's not what respect is. That's reliability. Let's say a theist believes that evolution is a lie, and won't talk to atheists. Is he respecting atheists?
He probably doesn't respect atheists or atheism, but if he tolerates them, he is respecting their right to hold and express an opinion he doesn't respect. And I wouldn't feel disrespected because he doesn't want to talk to me. What would be disrespectful would be calling me a liar for advocating for the theory of evolution, or saying that I am going to hell.
Respect has just one meaning.
Disagree. You haven't rebutted my claim, just rejected it and offered a different opinion that doesn't contradict or falsify my words. The two meanings I offered for "respect" are different, and the sentence, "I don't respect your opinions but I respect your right to hold it" is understandable to most English speakers, has nothing to do with reliability, and can be rewritten, "I don't hold your opinions in high esteem but I agree that you are entitled to them."
You confuse respect with reliability.
Not at all.

And as I said, you haven't made the case that I do, just the claim. Your English is excellent, but you're simply wrong about respect having only one meaning, at least not in American English. Perhaps you can explain why you think respect meaning admiration and approval should be called reliability instead.
 
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