The Koran is the Word of God? How do we know this?

[Fatihah]

Fatihah, although you are unrelenting in your efforts to show "proof" that the Koran is the Word of God what you see as clear "proof' may seem foolish and illogical to someone else without your background and beliefs.
My background and beliefs are different from yours. For example there is a verse in the N/T that states, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that who so ever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life."
In my opinion since the Koran denies this it is proof enough for me that the Koran is not the Word of God.

Response: You are entitled to your belief.

 

[love]

Response: You are entitled to your belief.

touche'

 

[Arkwort]

Books

and

Computers


Originals

and

Fakes



Sorry I don't have anything constructive to add.

 

[Riverwolf]

Response: Which is not proof that the qur'an is not the word of Allah.

Where did I claim the Qur'an wasn't the word of God?

I'm stating my opinion that these two books, which aren't the word of God, are better. In other words, us humans are better at writing books that God.

 

[kai]

OK, I've heard it way too many times, and I haven't heard a convincing argument yet. So, please bring it on. Where is this "proof" that the Qur'an is the word of God?

i have been involved in these arguments before and they go nowhere, its a matter of faith. to a muslim nothing will compare to the Quran because he/she has "submitted" to a religion whereby they recognize God's absolute authority, and reach an unshakable conviction , they have already found their proof and whatever that is, its good enough for them. the longer this kind of thread goes on ( and this is one of two currently active dealing with the "challenge") it turns into a kind of bear baiting. sometimes you just have to accept that people believe certain things and others don't.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Response: Simply amazing. You claim you have proof that the qur'an is not from Allah because you've created a chapter like the qur'an, you were asked to present it and bring it forward, and what do you do? Nothing. Why? The reason is obvious. It's because you don't have it. If you did, you would have brought it forward, thus once again confirming another person's denial to the fact that the qur'an is the true word of Allah.

First of all i did not make the claim that you assert. I claimed that i have created verses and that these verses were evaluated by muslims with and without knowledge with different results depending clearly on their memorization of the quran. Thus i claimed that the challenge itself is senseless as well as any try to meet it. This challenge is none that can be used to "proove" the quran right or wrong because any "rules" for the challenge are missing and because the results are predetermined by the state of mind and knowledge of the people. Indeed however this can be seen as an indication that the Quran is not from God because God wouldnt make such a senseless challenge.
Secondly you contradict yourself here and simply support my statement. IF it were a FACT that the quran is true then it would be senseless to bring forth any verse. You would deny its validity anyway.
The mere FACT that you claim the Quran to be fact already shows how obsolete it is to bring forth anything. Why would i take the trouble to look for my texts (some 10 years old, stored in some backup archive amongst the terrabytes i have) just to get the result i knew would come anyway?
Thirdly i do not see sense in debating with people that call me liar. I have made my experiences already with the surah like it challenge and i also already said here what the results were. I see no sense in answering all requests throughout lifetime that come from this or that person simply because he thinks he is especially entitled to demand something from me.
We already have it established that there is no "fixed ruleset" according to which such a verse would be evaluated. We already established that you see the Quran as fact anyway and (as you have demonstrated with your nice "if it is" posts in the other thread) there is actually no reason to believe you would suddenly change your fixed mind because i present 6 lines of arabic text.
Contradictions in the Quran and untrue statements are so easily found that any man using his reason and not basing everything on the assumption that it has to be true in the first place doesn't need 10 minutes to see it is not from God.
Spare me your response please as i already believe to know what it will look like.

 

[Fatihah]

First of all i did not make the claim that you assert. I claimed that i have created verses and that these verses were evaluated by muslims with and without knowledge with different results depending clearly on their memorization of the quran. Thus i claimed that the challenge itself is senseless as well as any try to meet it. This challenge is none that can be used to "proove" the quran right or wrong because any "rules" for the challenge are missing and because the results are predetermined by the state of mind and knowledge of the people. Indeed however this can be seen as an indication that the Quran is not from God because God wouldnt make such a senseless challenge.
Secondly you contradict yourself here and simply support my statement. IF it were a FACT that the quran is true then it would be senseless to bring forth any verse. You would deny its validity anyway.
The mere FACT that you claim the Quran to be fact already shows how obsolete it is to bring forth anything. Why would i take the trouble to look for my texts (some 10 years old, stored in some backup archive amongst the terrabytes i have) just to get the result i knew would come anyway?
Thirdly i do not see sense in debating with people that call me liar. I have made my experiences already with the surah like it challenge and i also already said here what the results were. I see no sense in answering all requests throughout lifetime that come from this or that person simply because he thinks he is especially entitled to demand something from me.
We already have it established that there is no "fixed ruleset" according to which such a verse would be evaluated. We already established that you see the Quran as fact anyway and (as you have demonstrated with your nice "if it is" posts in the other thread) there is actually no reason to believe you would suddenly change your fixed mind because i present 6 lines of arabic text.
Contradictions in the Quran and untrue statements are so easily found that any man using his reason and not basing everything on the assumption that it has to be true in the first place doesn't need 10 minutes to see it is not from God.
Spare me your response please as i already believe to know what it will look like.

Response: Post 49 proves to the contrary.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Response: Post 49 proves to the contrary.

Another claim, again with no proof.

I guess you never learn.

 

[Fatihah]

Another claim, again with no proof.

I guess you never learn.

Response: likewise.

 

[Renji]

Seems to me that the jokes section would be much more appropriate.

Well, tell me what's funny here?

 

[Renji]

Another claim, again with no proof.

I guess you never learn.

Do you have any proof to deny the authenticity of Quran as the word of God?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Do you have any proof to deny the authenticity of Quran as the word of God?

I think you might have entered the discussion at the wrong point and misunderstood something.
In the end my statement was that the challenge that muslims are so eager to mention is nonsensical. I have seen this challenge already being met as well as being denied. The difference solely depended on the knowledge of the muslim of his religion.
Note that for this challenge no definite criteria was given as how to judge the verses.

In my view this is a mistake and thus evidence for the imperfectness of whoever wrote the challenge. This alone however would not constitute a proof that it is wrong.
If you really want a proof then we would have to see first if we at all could agree on a "rule" for its interpretation and reading.

Again I need to emphasize that it is not my obligation to "disproove" the Quran and or Allah. i think there are more than enough facts to reasonably argue that the whole claim is nonsense but thats irrelevant as the proof FOR the initial claim (Quran = authentic and from Allah) must be presented in the first place.

Humans do not generally run around and disproove all claims made by anyone.
Humans making claims about the existence of something need to provide proof.

 

[MSizer]

Response: Which is not proof that the qur'an is not the word of Allah.

Fatihah, you're the one who has to prove it, not the other way around. You wouldn't believe me if I told you I had a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard unless I showed it to you, and you wouldn't have to disprove my claim to dismiss it. Like Kiergegaard said, faith is 100% subjective, and 0% rational. So I'm challenging you (or anyone for that matter) to show me somehow, by a priori or posteriori argument that meets etimylogical norms (such as by empirical evidence or sound logic) that the claim that the Qur'an is the word of god is either analytically or synthetically true.

 

[McBell]

Well, tell me what's funny here?

about 95% - 99% of Fatihah's posts.

 

[Fatihah]

I think you might have entered the discussion at the wrong point and misunderstood something.
In the end my statement was that the challenge that muslims are so eager to mention is nonsensical. I have seen this challenge already being met as well as being denied. The difference solely depended on the knowledge of the muslim of his religion.
Note that for this challenge no definite criteria was given as how to judge the verses.

In my view this is a mistake and thus evidence for the imperfectness of whoever wrote the challenge. This alone however would not constitute a proof that it is wrong.
If you really want a proof then we would have to see first if we at all could agree on a "rule" for its interpretation and reading.

Again I need to emphasize that it is not my obligation to "disproove" the Quran and or Allah. i think there are more than enough facts to reasonably argue that the whole claim is nonsense but thats irrelevant as the proof FOR the initial claim (Quran = authentic and from Allah) must be presented in the first place.

Humans do not generally run around and disproove all claims made by anyone.
Humans making claims about the existence of something need to provide proof.

Response: Coming from a person who has presented no proof that the qur'an is not from Allah, that alone makes your whole point invalid.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah, you're the one who has to prove it, not the other way around. You wouldn't believe me if I told you I had a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard unless I showed it to you, and you wouldn't have to disprove my claim to dismiss it. Like Kiergegaard said, faith is 100% subjective, and 0% rational. So I'm challenging you (or anyone for that matter) to show me somehow, by a priori or posteriori argument that meets etimylogical norms (such as by empirical evidence or sound logic) that the claim that the Qur'an is the word of god is either analytically or synthetically true.

Response: The proof was presented. Whether you accept it or not is not my issue and doesn't disprove anything. You have demonstrated your inability to prove that the qur'an is humanly possible to create. You were asked to produce a chapter like the qur'an. The outcome, nothing. So your actions alone prove that the qur'an is from Allah. Your denial to the fact is your business.

 

[Fatihah]

about 95% - 99% of Fatihah's posts.

Response: Still trolling.

 

[MSizer]

Response: The proof was presented. Whether you accept it or not is not my issue and doesn't disprove anything. You have demonstrated your inability to prove that the qur'an is humanly possible to create. You were asked to produce a chapter like the qur'an. The outcome, nothing. So your actions alone prove that the qur'an is from Allah. Your denial to the fact is your business.

My brain says: Does not compute. Invalid cheksum. Data deleted. Ahh, much better now.

 

[McBell]

Response: Still trolling.

If you were to actually pay attention to the thread you would understand that I was giving a direct answer to a direct question.

Now I understand that you cannot comprehend the concept, so perhaps you are completely unable to follow.

 

[McBell]

You have demonstrated your inability to prove that the qur'an is humanly possible to create.

You have not proven that the koran could not have been created by humans.
Let alone that is was not created by humans.

You were asked to produce a chapter like the qur'an. The outcome, nothing. So your actions alone prove that the qur'an is from Allah. Your denial to the fact is your business.

You must have the most asinine, self serving definition of the word "proof" known to all mankind.