The Last Supper mocked in Paris?

[Debater Slayer]

The sooner he is gone the better IMHO!

Macron has long struck me as arrogant, opportunistic, and recklessly pouring fuel on divisive fires. In some ways, I think he represents some of the worst qualities one could find among subsets of both the right and the left without embodying the best qualities of either.

 

[Altfish]

If someone was offended by that display, does that necessarily mean they're a "snowflake"?

IMHO, yes

 

[Altfish]

So, if one feels their faith has been insulted / ridiculed, that makes them snow flakes?

Yes

 

[Eddi]

IMHO, yes

Yes

What about people who take offence at a certain horrible racial slur?

Are they snowflakes too?

 

[Regiomontanus]

Macron has long struck me as arrogant, opportunistic, and recklessly pouring fuel on divisive fires. In some ways, I think he represents some of the worst qualities one could find among subsets of both the right and the left without embodying the best qualities of either.

Absolutely. He is one of the few 'accelerants' in the conflict in Ukraine (including Biden) in addition to his other short-comings - especially his antI-labor policies in his home country. He is an elitist, in the worst sense of the word. IMHO

 

[Regiomontanus]

Yes

Interesting perspective.

 

[Altfish]

What about people who take offence at a certain horrible racial slur?

Are they snowflakes too?

IMHO, taking offence at the opening ceremony of the games is being a snowflake.
Taking offence at a horrible racial slur is not being a snowflake.

 

[Eddi]

IMHO, taking offence at the opening ceremony of the games is being a snowflake.
Taking offence at a horrible racial slur is not being a snowflake.

Why not?

They are both derisive expressions of contempt

Ridiculing people based on their beliefs is I think roughly equivalent to basically calling someone subhuman and inferior

I believe in treating people with dignity and I think that forbids me for mocking people, which is what you do when you mock their religion whether you like it or not

 

[SalixIncendium]

It doesn't offend me, especially since I'm a non-Christian, but can we say that it's nothing to, say, a practicing Christian?

Who is we?

I can say this, because I have been a practicing Christian, and because I've learned how not to take what others say about me personally.

I've also learned in my time here (in the world, not on the forum) that taking things personally leads to unnecessary drama, which is what this has become (go to YouTube and search Olympics Last Supper skit). I've learned that people will have different opinions than me and go as far as to ridicule me for what I say. Hecks, it happened just this morning on this very forum. And that's okay, because it has everything to do with them and nothing at all to do with me.

I think perceptions of it will vary and that it's not for me to decide whether a Christian should be offended by it or not, as long as they don't try to legally or physically prohibit such displays.

And that is for you.

The OP asked for my thoughts. I'm sorry if you took exception to them.

 

[LuisDantas]

It has been pointed out by several people in the last couple of days that the scene is parodied very often in many, many venues.

Those parodies only very rarely bring any significant bad feelings from anyone.

The intents motivating those parodies will of course vary, and significantly so, but I don't think it is too much of a mistake to assume that in most cases the decisive factors will be the number of people in evidence and a vague perception that the moment portrayed will be consequential. There just aren't that many other well-known scenes that present about a dozen people and a perception of gravitas.

Speaking about myself, I certainly don't think much about Christianity or Jesus when I see a random parody of the Last Supper.

While typing this post I came to realize that, to me at least, it feels unlikely that a group of people would parody the scene with pejorative intent by using themselves as stand-ins for the Apostles.

For the perception of disrespect to exist, you have to start with a predisposition for perceiving either the reenactors themselves or their willingness to reenact the scene as somehow reprehensible. Otherwise it is just much more natural to see the reenactment as a respectful homage.

Christians themselves tend not to have too much issue with reenactments of moments described in the Bible, such as the Nativity, the Via Crucis, the Crucifixion itself. Those reenactments are often/usually very public and very much open to people who do not necessarily accept Christianity. And the Last Supper scene, while informed by the Bible, has a very significant element of Leonardo da Vinci's work as well. It is considerably less direct a reference to Christianity than those other reenactments.

So no, I don't believe that there was any sort of disrespect towards Christianity involved in the episode. The disconfort may well be genuine, but it is something for those bothered to consider and understand, and hopefully resolve as well.

It is probably not out of place to also point out that Christianity is usually presented as a creed that wants to reach out for all people, and there is no obvious reason why transgenders would be excluded.

I am all for protecting the rights of public blasphemy, make no mistake. But I am seeing none there, or even any attempt. Not by the reenactors, anyway.

 

[Regiomontanus]

At a minor league baseball game now. Sunny skies, in the 90s. So forgive my disregard for this thread for now

 

[Debater Slayer]

Who is we?

I was talking generally about anyone who wasn't offended by the skit (especially but not exclusively non-Christians).

I can say this, because I have been a practicing Christian, and because I've learned how not to take what others say about me personally.

I've also learned in my time here (in the world, not on the forum) that taking things personally leads to unnecessary drama, which is what this has become (go to YouTube and search Olympics Last Supper skit). I've learned that people will have different opinions than me and go as far as to ridicule me for what I say. Hecks, it happened just this morning on this very forum. And that's okay, because it has everything to do with them and nothing at all to do with me.

I think it's great when people adopt an approach that benefits them. My own attitude toward such things, when directed at any groups of people I belong to, is mostly similar to yours, but I also don't think that everyone will have the same approach or that they have to as long as, at the end of the day, they don't try to legally or physically impose their sensibilities on others.

And that is for you.

The OP asked for my thoughts. I'm sorry if you took exception to them.

I didn't take exception to them; I was interested to know how you would respond to the points I raised.

One of my favorite aspects of participating on RF is to ask people questions or cover different scenarios, see how they will respond to those so that I can explore different perspectives, and challenge my own views when possible. I'm mentioning all of this to clarify the reason for many of my questions that I asked (and ask) you (and others), whether in this thread or elsewhere.

 

[Altfish]

Why not?

They are both derisive expressions of contempt

Ridiculing people based on their beliefs is I think roughly equivalent to basically calling someone subhuman and inferior

I believe in treating people with dignity and I think that forbids me for mocking people, which is what you do when you mock their religion whether you like it or not

You have no choice in your race.
Religion is a choice, based on faith, like choosing your politics. Your belief or politics can be questioned and mocked.

 

[Eddi]

You have no choice in your race.
Religion is a choice, based on faith, like choosing your politics. Your belief or politics can be questioned and mocked.

You do realise that billions of people only practice their religion because they were effectively born into it? And that there are lots of pressure on people to stick to whatever they were born into?

And how is mocking a person's religion not a personal attack?

Criticising a religion and not believing in it is fine

But basically saying "this is really ****ing stupid and only morons would believe this look how hilariously stupid it is" is another thing, and that was the spirit in which the last supper was mocked

I think it is wrong to call people morons but you're obviously cool with that

 

[LuisDantas]

You do realise that billions of people only practice their religion because they were effectively born into it? And that there are lots of pressure on people to stick to whatever they were born into?

That is very true.

However, I fail to see why a lack of choice would make the presumed religion worth of protection.

And how is mocking a person's religion not a personal attack?

That is a very, very interesting question.

IMO it comes down to whether a person should or should not be held responsible for the religions beliefs that he or she claims to have.

I am decisively in the "yes, they should" camp - and one of the consequences is that I think that people should always be free and safe to repudiate creeds inflicted upon them.

Criticising a religion and not believing in it is fine

But basically saying "this is really ****ing stupid and only morons would believe this look how hilariously stupid it is" is another, and that was the spirit in which the last supper was mocked

I think it is wrong to call people morons but you're obviously cool with that

As I pointed out above, I don't personally believe that there was any mockery. I don't think that people reenacting a respected scene with themselves generally want to mock that scene.

The situation furthers that perception. The Olympics are not a situation that encourages people towards mockery. Celebration, yes, solemnity too, even political protests. But hardly mockery.

 

[Eddi]

I don't personally believe that there was any mockery

It was making light of a religion in a hostile and supercilious way

I would have been interested to see the reaction had they taken the **** out of Islam

But Christianity is a soft and easy target for those who scoff and need a quick and easy way to feel superior without actually doing anything

The whole stunt was cheap and easy

IMO it comes down to whether a person should or should not be held responsible for the religions beliefs that he or she claims to have.

I don't see how chosing a religion makes you a legitimate target for hatred

And yes, let's call a spade a spade

Describing a belief as moronic is calling those who hold it morons and in my book that is hatred, pure and simple

 

[LuisDantas]

It was making light of a religion in a hostile and supercilious way

Sorry, I am just not seeing that.

I would fully support them if they did. But I don't think they did.

If anything, they may have aimed to remind Christians of how embarrassing it is for them to be prejudiced.

 

[Kathryn]

Treat others as you want to be treated.

 

[Eddi]

Sorry, I am just not seeing that.

I would fully support them if they did. But I don't think they did.

If anything, they may have aimed to remind Christians of how embarrassing it is for them to be prejudiced.

Possibly

In that one specific instance

However there is a lot of similar hatred going round that nobody calls out as wrong because it mostly comes from lovely harmless cuddly liberals who can do no wrong

 

[LuisDantas]

Possibly

In that one specific instance

However there is a lot of similar hatred going round that nobody calls out as wrong because it mostly comes from lovely harmless cuddly liberals

Is there now?

I suppose it is mostly a matter of expectations and habit.

For what it is worth, I see little hatred and far too little necessary challenge and confrontation.

And quite a lot of ridiculous wrong-calling directed towards people that by rights ought to raise their voices louder, more often and more emphatically.