• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Law

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
I am glad I caught this post 349 of yours as it answers much for me.

You haven't gotten it that "naked flesh" as you called it, cannot be anything but a follower. Naked flesh has no intelligence factor with which to make decisions. All decisions are made for it by the state of a man's spirit, be that state of the man's spirit be godly by it's allegiance to God's spirit, or be that state of the spirit ungodly by it's having defected away from loyalty to God's spirit in favor of pursuing self gratification falsely thinking it can make one happier.

Your body develops habits which show forth as cravings. We call these cravings lust when they are inordinate cravings which violate the natural law God has established for his creatures. But it begins by the defection of a man's spirit away from the supreme governing of God's spirit.

One poster here alludes to Paul's words at Romans 7:18 as his or her proof that our physical bodies are unable to keep from sin. But that poster has half heard Paul and has rushed forward presumptuously to twist what Paul said to mean what he or she really only mistakenly thinks he meant.

The spirit I talked about above which must lead the body, whether a bad spirit leading the body to bad or a good spirit leading the body to do good, Paul, in Romans 7:23, also mentions that spirit as it is what operates in the mind of men. This is what Paul describes for us at Ephesians 4:21-24. But according to that poster we are unable to do what Paul said and, "put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts", which in believing will hold that poster captive to sin.

You people, yes almost all I see posting to this thread, are only hearing what you want from Paul but you are not really hearing him through. You are those Peter spoke of at 2 Peter 3:16. I tell you that for your own good that you might come down from off of this high you are on in thinking you know so much more than you do.

I am one of few who can teach you Paul's words correctly though I like you had to first go through a time of wresting his words. But God used that wresting I was doing when I believed and taught the very things you are saying, to cause a great crash in my life. And being brought low to the ground I finally became humble enough that I could be taught. And teach me God did.

I am not speaking guesswork about the things I see you saying. I am speaking as one who was as you and had to learn the hard way what the truth really is.

It is very predictable that someone will object by way of another half thought out idea, claiming that Paul is saying in Romans 7:23 that we can be true to the law in our mind but not in our body. But Paul is merely telling us that it took time for bad habits to be formed in our bodies during the time the spirit of our minds were disconnected from God, and it takes time to undo those bad habits once we finally get the spirit of our minds reconnected to God's spirit. Our naked flesh body, according to Paul and the rest of the entirety of scripture, is but a follower; a victim of the choice of the spirit which regulates our minds. So of course nothing good dwells in the body. Anything good must come by having our spirits connected to God's spirit so that he can impart good to our minds and our minds be strong enough to lead the body as it was meant to be led.
Shalom Mountain Climber, I'm not certain you really understood what I was trying to say to JB. Adam and Eve were NAKED, and they were not ashamed, yet almost all of the Scriptures in describing nakedness renders it as something that is "shameful," and it needs to be covered. Nakedness or being naked is symbolic of being sinful. Adam and Eve were created "sinful" and they didn't realize it. They were just like two little babies with no knowledge of nakedness/sinfulness, therefore they felt no shame, but just as soon as they committed sin, their eyes were opened, and they realized they were naked or sinful. They didn't BECOME naked when they sinned, rather it was by sinning they came to a KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and realized their condition...naked, sinful, flesh. So being "naked" is a sure sign of sinfulness, and one should cover their nakedness with fine white linen (the righteousness of the Saints).

Mountain Climber, I have a question. If Hashem did not plan for Adam and Eve to sin (by being created naked FLESH), why didn't He create them LIKE the Second Adam (glorious, powerful, incorruptible, and a Spiritual Body with immortality)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Shalom Mountain Climber, I'm glad you are in agreement with the opening paragraph, as I know how difficult it is to accept. Concerning Paul's understanding of Grace and how to explain it, it also is very difficult. Paul had a firm foundation that ONLY the DOERS of the Torah would be declared righteous (Rm 2:13), and this goes along with what the Moshiach, Moses, David, and the other Prophets declared. All of Hashem's commandments are RIGHTEOUSNESS (Psa 119:172), and if one desires to be righteous, one had better be DOING what the commandments require.

Built INTO the Torah is a means where if one would FAIL in keeping those commandments, they could bring the prescribed offering, and after following what the Torah required, they would be righteous. Now, that righteousness, or doing what the Torah required (sacrificing because of their sin) would only last until they sinned again and then they had to go through the whole process again. Once they did, they again had righteousness because they had DONE what the Torah required them to do. But that righteousness is "fleeting," it wouldn't last, because they would fall back again into sin.

Paul, and almost all Jews understood this process of "sacrificing" for or because of your sins, and when you did follow the prescribed commands, you were declared righteous. What Paul debated and argued with his fellow Jews over was a NEW and BETTER way to attain to righteousness. He explained that when they sinned, they were automatically performing what the Torah required them to do....they were killing their sacrifice (The Moshiach). This automatic performing of sacrifice (by sinning) was a FREE GIFT from Hashem which FULFILLED the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Torah concerning sacrifice. They were unknowingly DOING the Torah with their killing or sacrifice of the Moshiach, and they were DOING this by SINNING. So as Paul taught, INCREASE sin, you have an automatic INCREASE of Grace (The Free Gift of Righteousness). Paul even stated that if anyone sought the righteousness by the Moshiach's sacrifice, they HAD to be a sinner (Gal 2:17). Well if that is the case, then couldn't we say that Moshiach promotes sin? Isn't that what Paul said? But no way. In the sacrifice of Moshiach, sinners were destroyed, and IF one builds themselves UP AGAIN as a sinner, then they truly PROVE to Hashem they are bonafide transgressors, deserving of destruction.

Mountain Climber, there is more that could be said, but hopefully this gives an ample explanation of how our sin is turned INTO righteousness as a Free Gift (Grace) through or by the sacrifice of Moshiach. Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.

Shalom Mountain Climber, I'm not certain you really understood what I was trying to say to JB. Adam and Eve were NAKED, and they were not ashamed, yet almost all of the Scriptures in describing nakedness renders it as something that is "shameful," and it needs to be covered. Nakedness or being naked is symbolic of being sinful. Adam and Eve were created "sinful" and they didn't realize it. They were just like two little babies with no knowledge of nakedness/sinfulness, therefore they felt no shame, but just as soon as they committed sin, their eyes were opened, and they realized they were naked or sinful. They didn't BECOME naked when they sinned, rather it was by sinning they came to a KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and realized their condition...naked, sinful, flesh. So being "naked" is a sure sign of sinfulness, and one should cover their nakedness with fine white linen (the righteousness of the Saints).

Mountain Climber, I have a question. If Hashem did not plan for Adam and Eve to sin (by being created naked FLESH), why didn't He create them LIKE the Second Adam (glorious, powerful, incorruptible, and a Spiritual Body with immortality)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

You are so full of yourself. You are worse than the others because you do see more than they and yet resort to placing the blame on God, saying that he created Adam and Eve sinners. Your rationalization concerning nakedness is a contrived distortion of the true picture and your accrediting Paul as having in mind the things you have here spoken proves to me that you do not know Paul at all.

Nakedness is not sin. Sin is clearly a violation of God's law. So what then is nakedness and why is nakedness a shame? Or, better yet, when is nakedness a shame, for we know there is no shame in an infant's nakedness lest your mind be evil to think so. So, when is it a shame to be naked?

Clearly nakedness (which pictures not being clothed in God's righteousness) becomes a shame when that nakedness is the result of failing to listen to God that he might clothe that nakedness. And that is what Paul taught. That was Paul's point in 2 Corinthians 5 and the point made at Revelation 3:5; Revelation 3:18 and Revelation 7:9.

I know that Old Law at least as well as you do and I know you come just close enough to finding bits of truth as you need to in order to find the most devastating points of diversion to use. And granted you may not see you are doing that. You may be just being played by Satan as a fine tuned stringed instrument for his will, but I rather doubt that. I think you know what you are doing but we will leave that to God.

One thing you can take to the bank is that matter not how well you are able to deceive others, you will never be able to deceive me because you have finally met a true son of God, brother of Christ.

It is OK to hate me now so long as you hear and think about it and benefit, for the love you will have for me later will more than make up for it.

PS/
Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Why were they not ashamed? Because there was no shame in their being naked. This kind of nakedness apart from sin represents innocence, even as that of a newborn baby.

If there were shame in that nakedness then our righteous God would surely not have waited to clothe them until sin brought them to know shame.

This idea you are teaching I first heard some twenty years ago being taught by a Muslim sect.
 
Last edited:

Paranoid Android

Active Member
Hi there, in your own words could you give a brief summary of Dementheology as this is the first time I've heard this word and although I've looked it up, it might be different to your definition of the word. Also, it might be an irrelevant point to you but I felt it important to say that not all Christians (myself included) believe in the trinity. Personally, I have come to view the Trinity as man's attempt to create a box in which they then ask man to squeeze scripture into that box, and any verse that doesn't fit we're expected to throw out instead of the other way around. There are so many NT scriptures that prove definitively (in my opinion), that the Trinity just doesn't fit!


Sure. We believe that only disabled people will go to Heaven. In other words, we expect ever other person, like Squares, to go to Hell. Now some people will see that as a radical reaction. All people have to do is reflect that Christianity says non-Christians will go to Hell, Muslims think (I'm not an expert on Islam, could you tell me if this is true ?) Christians and Jews will go to Hell, e.t.c . All we have done is say that the largest minority group in the world will go to Heaven if they:
1) Obey the Wisdom of God
2) Obey the Ten Commandments
3) Repent to God of their sins ( Breaking the Ten Commandments and the Wisdom of God)

We also believe that the world will be led to the Golden Age by the appearance of the Last Prophet. All wars will cease. Humanity (those who are saved) will exist at peace finally and forever.
We also believe that we will be transformed into angels and heal God. God has been suffering from a case of split personalities. One personality is God, of course, and the other is Satan. We obey God, we do not obey Satan.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
You are so full of yourself. You are worse than the others because you do see more than they and yet resort to placing the blame on God, saying that he created Adam and Eve sinners. Your rationalization concerning nakedness is a contrived distortion of the true picture and your accrediting Paul as having in mind the things you have here spoken proves to me that you do not know Paul at all.

Nakedness is not sin. Sin is clearly a violation of God's law. So what then is nakedness and why is nakedness a shame? Or, better yet, when is nakedness a shame, for we know there is no shame in an infant's nakedness lest your mind be evil to think so. So, when is it a shame to be naked?

Clearly nakedness (which pictures not being clothed in God's righteousness) becomes a shame when that nakedness is the result of failing to listen to God that he might clothe that nakedness. And that is what Paul taught. That was Paul's point in 2 Corinthians 5 and the point made at Revelation 3:5; Revelation 3:18 and Revelation 7:9.

I know that Old Law at least as well as you do and I know you come just close enough to finding bits of truth as you need to in order to find the most devastating points of diversion to use. And granted you may not see you are doing that. You may be just being played by Satan as a fine tuned stringed instrument for his will, but I rather doubt that. I think you know what you are doing but we will leave that to God.

One thing you can take to the bank is that matter not how well you are able to deceive others, you will never be able to deceive me because you have finally met a true son of God, brother of Christ.

It is OK to hate me now so long as you hear and think about it and benefit, for the love you will have for me later will more than make up for it.

PS/
Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Why were they not ashamed? Because there was no shame in their being naked. This kind of nakedness apart from sin represents innocence, even as that of a newborn baby.

If there were shame in that nakedness then our righteous God would surely not have waited to clothe them until sin brought them to know shame.

This idea you are teaching I first heard some twenty years ago being taught by a Muslim sect.
Shalom Mountain Climber, for a surety, I would never deceive you as I am convinced that those who know the Truth must be sincere. I see that in you, and I see that you would never knowingly try to deceive me, yet, you are opposing a truthful teaching. Paul taught that Elohim consigned, or shut up ALL in disobedience (Rom 11:32), and the ALL includes Adam and Eve, or else He will not be able to have mercy on them. Was Paul full of himself and was he worse than others for him to claim it was Elohim's fault that ALL were shut up in disobedience BY Him? You quoted Roms 8 before where Paul states that Elohim was the one who SUBJECTED His creation to "moral depravity," (G3153), so why would you reject the idea that Elohim placed mankind UNDER sin by creating us FLESH?

You need to look at the BIG picture of what He is trying to do. To really see and understand it, consider your immune system or inoculations. For your body to build up defenses against a sickness or disease, it takes the body being exposed to the sickness, usually while the person is young. Some parents will purposefully expose their children to some of the childhood diseases so they will be able to overcome them when they are adults. Elohim is no different, He has exposed mankind to the disease of sin (in a less deadly form-physical sin, sin of the flesh) so that He can teach us about good and evil, so that when we enter Eternal Life, we will be protected from the vicious deadly form of sin (Spiritual sin, the sin against the Spirit).

What do you think Elohim was doing with Adam and Eve? Are you like the Jehovah's Witnesses that believe G-d's ORIGINAL plan was for mankind to live forever in a paradise on earth, and because they went against his original plan, he had to work a new plan around paying off Adam's sin along with everyone else who accepts a substitute dying in their place? Do you really accept that deception?

The Apostle Paul explains it very well in 1 Cor 15. The FIRST Adam was SOWN in weakness, mortality, dishonor, corruptness as a CARNAL/FLESHLY/NATURAL man, as is ALL of mankind after him. Elohim SOWING mankind LIKE this allows us to be taught about Good and Evil. Do you think that man would just automatically OBEY, and KNOW to choose the Good? We FIRST had to see the destruction caused by disobedience before we could learn right from wrong. The ultimate example of this disobedience is personified by what we all did to Yeshua when we, with the help of wicked men, nailed Him to a cross. This event TEACHES us to TURN from INIQUITY as we come to KNOW what sin causes. That is the BLESSING we receive by coming to a Knowledge of the Truth concerning what our sin did to Him (Act 3:26). Elohim allowed us ALL to dwell in darkness/evil (Isa 45:7) and at the proper time, He sent forth His Light unto the world to teach us about sin and to deliver us OUT from that darkness/evil. Why is this so hard for you to believe? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Just to clarify. I do not believe Elohim created Adam and Eve sinners, I believe He created or consigned them with a PROPENSITY to sin because He created them flesh/carnal. They became sinners when they disobeyed by breaking His command.
 
Last edited:

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Shalom Mountain Climber, for a surety, I would never deceive you as I am convinced that those who know the Truth must be sincere. I see that in you, and I see that you would never knowingly try to deceive me, yet, you are opposing a truthful teaching. Paul taught that Elohim consigned, or shut up ALL in disobedience (Rom 11:32), and the ALL includes Adam and Eve, or else He will not be able to have mercy on them. Was Paul full of himself and was he worse than others for him to claim it was Elohim's fault that ALL were shut up in disobedience BY Him? You quoted Roms 8 before where Paul states that Elohim was the one who SUBJECTED His creation to "moral depravity," (G3153), so why would you reject the idea that Elohim placed mankind UNDER sin by creating us FLESH?

You need to look at the BIG picture of what He is trying to do. To really see and understand it, consider your immune system or inoculations. For your body to build up defenses against a sickness or disease, it takes the body being exposed to the sickness, usually while the person is young. Some parents will purposefully expose their children to some of the childhood diseases so they will be able to overcome them when they are adults. Elohim is no different, He has exposed mankind to the disease of sin (in a less deadly form-physical sin, sin of the flesh) so that He can teach us about good and evil, so that when we enter Eternal Life, we will be protected from the vicious deadly form of sin (Spiritual sin, the sin against the Spirit).

What do you think Elohim was doing with Adam and Eve? Are you like the Jehovah's Witnesses that believe G-d's ORIGINAL plan was for mankind to live forever in a paradise on earth, and because they went against his original plan, he had to work a new plan around paying off Adam's sin along with everyone else who accepts a substitute dying in their place? Do you really accept that deception?

The Apostle Paul explains it very well in 1 Cor 15. The FIRST Adam was SOWN in weakness, mortality, dishonor, corruptness as a CARNAL/FLESHLY/NATURAL man, as is ALL of mankind after him. Elohim SOWING mankind LIKE this allows us to be taught about Good and Evil. Do you think that man would just automatically OBEY, and KNOW to choose the Good? We FIRST had to see the destruction caused by disobedience before we could learn right from wrong. The ultimate example of this disobedience is personified by what we all did to Yeshua when we, with the help of wicked men, nailed Him to a cross. This event TEACHES us to TURN from INIQUITY as we come to KNOW what sin causes. That is the BLESSING we receive by coming to a Knowledge of the Truth concerning what our sin did to Him (Act 3:26). Elohim allowed us ALL to dwell in darkness/evil (Isa 45:7) and at the proper time, He sent forth His Light unto the world to teach us about sin and to deliver us OUT from that darkness/evil. Why is this so hard for you to believe? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Just to clarify. I do not believe Elohim created Adam and Eve sinners, I believe He created or consigned them with a PROPENSITY to sin because He created them flesh/carnal. They became sinners when they disobeyed by breaking His command.

I will take this down to my desktop and prepare a detailed explanation so as to help you see where and how it is that you have not understood Paul.

be patient, as I am going to put an end to this foolishness once and for all if it be at all possible.

In the mean time take a look at my post 494, here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jws-jesus-is-archangel-michael.178542/page-25
 
Last edited:

roger1440

I do stuff
Micah 6:7-8 "Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Take time with it and think it through.

Of the two, morality and sacrifice, morality is the more valuable. That is not to say, sacrifice is valueless. That was the message of the prophets over and over. If God did not want sacrifice from the Jews then much of Jewish scripture would not be in agreement. God is not the author of confusion.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
The pathway into conversation with you is narrowed, for here you began with your assumption that you cannot be incorrect: "Shalom Mountain Climber, for a surety, I would never deceive you as I am convinced that those who know the Truth must be sincere. I see that in you, and I see that you would never knowingly try to deceive me, yet, you are opposing a truthful teaching."

Here you speak of something which God did after sin was committed as if it supports your ideas of how things were before sin was committed. That was done at Genesis 3:15: "Paul taught that Elohim consigned, or shut up ALL in disobedience (Rom 11:32), and the ALL includes Adam and Eve, or else He will not be able to have mercy on them."

Here you transferred what i said of you to Paul again as if you cannot be incorrect: Was Paul full of himself and was he worse than others for him to claim it was Elohim's fault that ALL were shut up in disobedience BY Him?

Here you go way beyond what the scriptures tell you, adding your own speculation to it as though truth: "You quoted Roms 8 before where Paul states that Elohim was the one who SUBJECTED His creation to "moral depravity," (G3153), so why would you reject the idea that Elohim placed mankind UNDER sin by creating us FLESH?"

It was at Genesis 3:15 that God subjected his creation to vanity (the illusions caused of sin). G3153 more precisely means 'the state of groping purposelessly in the darkness caused of sin's deprevation of God's righteousness in the hearts of men.' You have to consider that G3153 comes from G3152 through the base of G3155. Thus it is vanity. But it is based in the depravity caused of sin and it was only after sin that man could be subjected to it.

Here you speak as if God is a man saying that God must try to do what he has purposed to do: "You need to look at the BIG picture of what He is trying to do."

Here you apply an idea which can only be applied to us after sin took it's toll on our bodies due to the death sentence being placed on Adam: "To really see and understand it, consider your immune system or inoculations. For your body to build up defenses against a sickness or disease, it takes the body being exposed to the sickness, usually while the person is young. Some parents will purposefully expose their children to some of the childhood diseases so they will be able to overcome them when they are adults."

Here you have just told everyone that hates God for the sickness they and their loved ones are afflicted with, that they are right to hate God and in so doing you help keep them distanced from him: "Elohim is no different, He has exposed mankind to the disease of sin (in a less deadly form-physical sin, sin of the flesh) so that He can teach us about good and evil, so that when we enter Eternal Life, we will be protected from the vicious deadly form of sin (Spiritual sin, the sin against the Spirit)."

Here you are right that I do believe similar to Jehovah's Witnesses in this area and you would do well to find out why but you won't because you have your pride sown into believing what you already believe: "What do you think Elohim was doing with Adam and Eve? Are you like the Jehovah's Witnesses that believe G-d's ORIGINAL plan was for mankind to live forever in a paradise on earth, and because they went against his original plan, he had to work a new plan around paying off Adam's sin along with everyone else who accepts a substitute dying in their place? Do you really accept that deception?"

Here you ignore that being sown means our death, not our birth nor Adam's creation. Adam was sown to death in weakness after he sinned, caused of his having sinned, for it was only then that the death sentence began: The Apostle Paul explains it very well in 1 Cor 15. The FIRST Adam was SOWN in weakness, mortality, dishonor, corruptness as a CARNAL/FLESHLY/NATURAL man, as is ALL of mankind after him.

Here in this comment I just realized you are not a Jew but a Muslim. You call yourself a Hebrew rather than stating that so no one will know. But it is only certain sects of Muslims that teach God really did not mean what he said when he forbid Adam and Eve to eat of that tree, that it was his paln all along and that it is good that we should know both good and evil. And in that ignorance you represent the serpent's claim as true, know that Jesus clearly said he was a liar: "Elohim SOWING mankind LIKE this allows us to be taught about Good and Evil."

Again all this became necessary only after sin and due to sin. But what you leave out is that we are also suposed to at the same time have that darkness wiped out of our hearts and out of the spirit of our minds because we don't need it and never did (which you being a Muslim will try to refute by twisting what was said at Isaiah 45:7. You couple just enough truth with falsehood to deceive others as you yourself are deceived. And that is what you say here shows: "Do you think that man would just automatically OBEY, and KNOW to choose the Good? We FIRST had to see the destruction caused by disobedience before we could learn right from wrong. The ultimate example of this disobedience is personified by what we all did to Yeshua when we, with the help of wicked men, nailed Him to a cross. This event TEACHES us to TURN from INIQUITY as we come to KNOW what sin causes. That is the BLESSING we receive by coming to a Knowledge of the Truth concerning what our sin did to Him (Act 3:26). Elohim allowed us ALL to dwell in darkness/evil (Isa 45:7) and at the proper time, He sent forth His Light unto the world to teach us about sin and to deliver us OUT from that darkness/evil. Why is this so hard for you to believe? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Just to clarify. I do not believe Elohim created Adam and Eve sinners, I believe He created or consigned them with a PROPENSITY to sin because He created them flesh/carnal. They became sinners when they disobeyed by breaking His command.

Insofar as your P.S. is concerned, even spirit angels have a propensity to sin should they choose to disconnect the spirit controling their minds from God. And that is all that propensity is in man, a choice to disconnect as regards what Adam did or to stay disconnected from God's spirit as regards to how it applies to us. But you were the one who said in your post number 341, quote, "Nakedness or being naked is symbolic of being sinful. Adam and Eve were created "sinful" and they didn't realize it."

I see I missed answering this one in your post number 341: "Mountain Climber, I have a question. If Hashem did not plan for Adam and Eve to sin (by being created naked FLESH), why didn't
He create them LIKE the Second Adam (glorious, powerful, incorruptible, and a Spiritual Body with immortality)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Because it was the man Jesus who was the second Adam of importance to our salvation. The resurrected Jesus is not who removes our sin. It is walking in the image of the man Jesus that restores the perfect image of God to us that the first Adam lost to us, thus making the man Jesus the second Adam.

And yes, you are a Hebrew, A Muslim Hebrew. That explains much to me about what you believe as I have a good deal of familiarity with many Muslims and have for many years conversed with them just as I do with all who will speak with me.
 
Last edited:

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Of the two, morality and sacrifice, morality is the more valuable. That is not to say, sacrifice is valueless. That was the message of the prophets over and over. If God did not want sacrifice from the Jews then much of Jewish scripture would not be in agreement. God is not the author of confusion.
You speak correctly.

In fact, morality will of necessity at times involve sacrificing the freedom to do what may be popular or even appealing.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Here you ignore that being sown means our death, not our birth nor Adam's creation. Adam was sown to death in weakness after he sinned, caused of his having sinned, for it was only then that the death sentence began: The Apostle Paul explains it very well in 1 Cor 15. The FIRST Adam was SOWN in weakness, mortality, dishonor, corruptness as a CARNAL/FLESHLY/NATURAL man, as is ALL of mankind after him.

I see I missed answering this one in your post number 341: "Mountain Climber, I have a question. If Hashem did not plan for Adam and Eve to sin (by being created naked FLESH), why didn't He create them LIKE the Second Adam (glorious, powerful, incorruptible, and a Spiritual Body with immortality)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Because it was the man Jesus who was the second Adam of importance to our salvation. The resurrected Jesus is not who removes our sin. It is walking in the image of the man Jesus that restores the perfect image of God to us that the first Adam lost to us, thus making the man Jesus the second Adam.

And yes, you are a Hebrew, A Muslim Hebrew. That explains much to me about what you believe as I have a good deal of familiarity with many Muslims and have for many years conversed with them just as I do with all who will speak with me.
Shalom Mountain Climber, thank you for the response. I think that you might not be understanding Paul as well as you should. You have tried to explain away Paul's argument about the FIRST Adam being SOWN in weakness, mortality, dishonor, corruptness as a CARNAL/FLESHLY/NATURAL man by changing Paul's meaning of SOWN to mean Adam's death, and not at his creation of being a "living soul." You are in ERROR in your understanding of Paul, and it is easily proven by what Paul states here:

1Cor 15:45- 46

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Do you see how Paul was thinking? Adam was made or created as a LIVING SOUL (this is BEFORE he sinned), and Adam was FIRST to be created in Elohim's PLAN as a NATURAL/CARNAL man (weak, dishonorable, mortal, and corrupt), NOT a Spiritual Man. This BLOWS all of what you have said out of the water. Elohim FIRST created the FLESHLY/CARNAL/NATURAL man who was weak, mortal, dishonorable, and corrupt, and THEN that which is Spiritual, the Last Adam.

In a related question. Paul elsewhere states:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come.

Mountain Climber, in your understanding of Paul, please explain how Paul was thinking when he said Adam was a type or figure of Him that was to come? Just exactly how is Adam a figure of Moshiach? If you answer this correctly, you may impress me a little. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
All people have to do is reflect that Christianity says non-Christians will go to Hell...
While I understand that this is a commonly held view amongst Christians, that non-christians will burn in hell for eternity, it is not my personal view of Scripture.
We also believe that the world will be led to the Golden Age by the appearance of the Last Prophet. All wars will cease. Humanity (those who are saved) will exist at peace finally and forever.
We also believe that we will be transformed into angels and heal God. God has been suffering from a case of split personalities. One personality is God, of course, and the other is Satan. We obey God, we do not obey Satan.
May I ask, Do you believe the Scriptures? And if so, may I ask which ones? Cheers
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Hi Ken & Mountain_Climber,

Could I just ask that you both quote scripture more when presenting your perspectives so that those of us following your conversation can see where you draw your conclusions from. The reason I ask is that scriptures keep coming to my mind that agree and disagree with both of you at different points. But this may only be because I'm not considering the verses from which you are drawing your conclusion from, and vice versa.

It would be much appreciated.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Hi Ken & Mountain_Climber,

Could I just ask that you both quote scripture more when presenting your perspectives so that those of us following your conversation can see where you draw your conclusions from. The reason I ask is that scriptures keep coming to my mind that agree and disagree with both of you at different points. But this may only be because I'm not considering the verses from which you are drawing your conclusion from, and vice versa.

It would be much appreciated.
Yes, you are right.
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
I came across this:

"Some Christians believe that they should keep old covenant observances such as the weekly and annual Sabbaths. A person is a "true Christian" only if he or she observes Sabbaths and certain other old covenant requirements. But the truth is that these old worship regulations are not required today, and it is legalistic to teach that people must obey those rules in order to be accounted worthy of salvation."

That is a popular argument for why Christians don't observe those Laws...

Why does that paragraph say the things that it says? First the Bible commanded us to keep 613 Commandments. Where is the prophecy in the "Old Testament" that says those Laws would someday be invalid or no longer required?

So, basically, Christians believe: For example: the Mr. Smith was born 30 B.C.E. He lived a good life before the birth of the Savior and observed those Laws with all his ability. Somewhere around 34 C.E. he no longer had to observe them (for whatever reason.

True? At what exact point in history did those Laws become invalid? What Bible verses in the "Old Testament" prove this?

This cannot be proven. In fact, the opposite is true since there are a dozen or more prophesies about the Law being and standing for ever.
[Zecharyah was written in 520 B.C.E.]
Zechariah 14:18-19 says that the heathen will be forced to observe and travel to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This prophesy has never been fulfilled, nor has there ever been circumstances that even remotely resembled it.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

Mattithyah,
You have asked several very good questions, but do you really want to know the truth?? If you truly want the truth, and if you will meditate on the things I say, you will understand what only a few know.
First, The Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim, a de bene esse covenant, meaning it was only to be in force until the Messiah would come, Jere 31:31-34. The Mosaic Covenent was a shadow of Jesus, and acted as a Tudor, a protector until Jesus came, Heb 10:1,2, Gal 3:19-25.
Before I go on, I want to ask you a very important question. Is there anyone today that obeys The Mosaic Law Covenant??? Do you??? if you have traveled more that half a mile, or started a fire, or did any work on the Sabbath, you should be stoned. That was the Law, have you asked anyone to carry out the Law by stoning you?? As you said there were 613 laws that made up the Mosaic Law Covenant. If you broke ONE of these you had broken them all, James 2:10. When Jesus was on earth he said that none of the Jews obeyed The Law, John 7:19. Peter even said that none of the Jews could obey the Law, Acts 15:8-11.
Consider Col 2:13-17, where we are told not to observe the laws of the Mosaic Law Covenant. Under the Mosaic Covenant it was a death sentence not to obey the Sabbath, Ex 31:13-16.
The Mosic Law Covenant was only given to the Jews, not to Gentiles, which most Christians are, Deut 5:1-3, Ps 147:10,20. Consider what Paul was inspired to write, Rom 2:14.
Because no one could obey the Mosaic Law, that was one of the very important reasons that Jesus came to earth, to remove The Law Covenant, because it condemned to death, anyone under it, Gal 3:7-14, 2Cor 3:3-9, Rom 7:4-6.
The truth is: no Christian was ever under The Mosaic Law Covenant, because the old Law ended with the death of Jesus, and everyone came under The New Covenant instituted by Jesus on the night before his death.
Today everyone is under the Law of Faith, both Jews and Christians, for after the death of Jesus there is no distinction between any person and Jews, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:20-25.
On the night before his death, Jesus instituted The New Covenant, a covenant based on the precious blood of God's son, Jesus, and non more on the blood of goats and bulls as the Mosaic Law Covenant was, Luke 22:14-20, 1Cor 11:23-26, Heb 7:18,19,24,25, Heb 9:15,18,19.
Now, please read Heb 8:6-13, where we are told about the greatness of the New Covenant, and how it superceded the Mosaic Covenant.
The Mosaic Law Covenant was a law of Works!! The New Covenant is based on Faith, the faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, Rom 9:30-33. Almost the entire chapter of 2Cor 3, compares the Old Law and the New Covenant, and shows that even though the Mosaic Law was glorious, it was nothing compared with tha New Covenant, and shows that only people who are blinded cannot see the truth.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Your first quarter-teaspoon:

No Ken, there are a few critical smaller details of understanding you have not gotten straight in your mind. This is the first byte.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

When Adam was made a "living soul" was there death in him as yet so that he could pass death onto his offspring? His offspring would not need to be made quickening spirits in order to pass life onto their offspring any more so than Adam had to be a quickening spirit to pass that life given him onto them. The quickening spirit had already given them all that life, life as a "living soul."

Adam could not make himself and therefore at the time he was made, God (or the Son through whom God created Adam, if you are ready to accept that) was the one who had to be that quickening spirit. So all things began with God being the quickening spirit. And what God as that quickening spirit created, was, "a living soul", as in a fully alive soul having no death in it to pass onto it's offspring.

No sin as yet existing = No need for Adam to be made anything other than a living soul. Why?

If you are really willing to think this through, then why would there have been no need for God to create Adam a quickening spirit before anyone was dead due to sin?


That first quickening would have been adequate had not what act brought death to that living soul?

Added: you do understand don't you that it is the soul that dies? It is the soul which goes down to the grave?

Ezekiel 13:19; Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20; Genesis 2:7; Genesis 19:20; Joshua 10:35; Joshua 11:11; Job 33:22
 
Last edited:

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Your first quarter-teaspoon:

No Ken, there are a few critical smaller details of understanding you have not gotten straight in your mind. This is the first byte.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

When Adam was made a "living soul" was there death in him as yet so that he could pass death onto his offspring? His offspring would not need to be made quickening spirits in order to pass life onto their offspring any more so than Adam had to be a quickening spirit to pass that life given him onto them. The quickening spirit had already given them all that life, life as a "living soul."

Adam could not make himself and therefore at the time he was made, God (or the Son through whom God created Adam, if you are ready to accept that) was the one who had to be that quickening spirit. So all things began with God being the quickening spirit. And what God as that quickening spirit created, was, "a living soul", as in a fully alive soul having no death in it to pass onto it's offspring.

No sin as yet existing = No need for Adam to be made anything other than a living soul. Why?

If you are really willing to think this through, then why would there have been no need for God to create Adam a quickening spirit before anyone was dead due to sin?


That first quickening would have been adequate had not what act brought death to that living soul?

Added: you do understand don't you that it is the soul that dies? It is the soul which goes down to the grave?

Ezekiel 13:19; Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20; Genesis 2:7; Genesis 19:20; Joshua 10:35; Joshua 11:11; Job 33:22
Shalom Mountain Climber, thank you again for responding, although your response is more for your benefit than anyone else. All the double talk about the "soul" is a smoke screen you are trying to throw up to hide your inability to address how Paul was thinking. Paul was addressing the RESURRECTION. And in addressing the resurrection, he mentions how man (Adam) was SOWN, as a LIVING SOUL, in weakness, mortality, dishonor, and corruptness. This NATURAL state of sinful man is what was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man, for the Spiritual Man (The Moshiach) was RAISED in POWER, IMMORTALITY, HONOR, and INCORRUPTIBILITY, The Man From Heaven. Adam was from the EARTH, earthy, and ALL of man is like the exact way Adam was MADE. Maybe it would help you Mountain Climber to read the WHOLE discourse of Paul to better comprehend what he was trying to say:

1Cor 15:35-38, 42-49
35
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
This is the essence of what Paul is trying to address... what body are the dead raised in?
36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Paul's point, what is sown has to die before it is raised up to life.
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
So the body that is sown bears little resemblance to what is raised up.
38 But Elohim giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
Elohim gave mankind a "fleshy" or "natural" body, according to what He wanted to sow mankind in.
42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Paul starts the comparison between what is SOWN (the natural sinful body), and what is raised (the sinless Spiritual Body). Natural, sinful man was sown in corruption, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
Natural, sinful man is sown in dishonor and weakness, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in glory and power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Natural, sinful man is sown in a natural, sinful body, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in a sinless Spiritual Body.
45 And so it is written (Gen 2:7), The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
The FIRST man Adam, the NATURAL, SINFUL man was made a LIVING SOUL when the BREATH of LIFE was breath into the dust of the earth, but the LAST Adam is a LIVING SPIRIT, that is Glorious, Powerful, Immortal, and Incorruptible.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Paul teaches that the Spiritual Man/Body was NOT FIRST, but the NATURAL, CORRUPTIBLE man was FIRST, and THEN the Spiritual Man, through the Power of the Resurrection was RAISED an INCORRUPTIBLED Life Giving Spirit.
47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] Yahweh from heaven.
Paul is saying that Adam was created from the dust of the earth (earthy, physical, carnal man) Gen 2:7, the Second Adam is Yahweh from heaven
48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
All of mankind is just like how Adam was created, NATURAL, CARNAL, WEAK, MORTAL, CORRUPTIBLE, DISHONORABLE, and SINFUL/NAKED, and just as is the Spiritual One, so also are those who are Spiritual.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
This verse speaks for itself.

So Mountain Climber you may need to re-evaluate you understanding of Paul. If you would entertain Paul's teaching on Grace, all of what he is saying here would make perfect sense to you. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Shalom Mountain Climber, thank you again for responding, although your response is more for your benefit than anyone else. All the double talk about the "soul" is a smoke screen you are trying to throw up to hide your inability to address how Paul was thinking. Paul was addressing the RESURRECTION. And in addressing the resurrection, he mentions how man (Adam) was SOWN, as a LIVING SOUL, in weakness, mortality, dishonor, and corruptness. This NATURAL state of sinful man is what was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man, for the Spiritual Man (The Moshiach) was RAISED in POWER, IMMORTALITY, HONOR, and INCORRUPTIBILITY, The Man From Heaven. Adam was from the EARTH, earthy, and ALL of man is like the exact way Adam was MADE. Maybe it would help you Mountain Climber to read the WHOLE discourse of Paul to better comprehend what he was trying to say:

1Cor 15:35-38, 42-49
35
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
This is the essence of what Paul is trying to address... what body are the dead raised in?
36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Paul's point, what is sown has to die before it is raised up to life.
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
So the body that is sown bears little resemblance to what is raised up.
38 But Elohim giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
Elohim gave mankind a "fleshy" or "natural" body, according to what He wanted to sow mankind in.
42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Paul starts the comparison between what is SOWN (the natural sinful body), and what is raised (the sinless Spiritual Body). Natural, sinful man was sown in corruption, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
Natural, sinful man is sown in dishonor and weakness, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in glory and power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Natural, sinful man is sown in a natural, sinful body, and the sinless Spiritual Man is raised in a sinless Spiritual Body.
45 And so it is written (Gen 2:7), The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
The FIRST man Adam, the NATURAL, SINFUL man was made a LIVING SOUL when the BREATH of LIFE was breath into the dust of the earth, but the LAST Adam is a LIVING SPIRIT, that is Glorious, Powerful, Immortal, and Incorruptible.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Paul teaches that the Spiritual Man/Body was NOT FIRST, but the NATURAL, CORRUPTIBLE man was FIRST, and THEN the Spiritual Man, through the Power of the Resurrection was RAISED an INCORRUPTIBLED Life Giving Spirit.
47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] Yahweh from heaven.
Paul is saying that Adam was created from the dust of the earth (earthy, physical, carnal man) Gen 2:7, the Second Adam is Yahweh from heaven
48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
All of mankind is just like how Adam was created, NATURAL, CARNAL, WEAK, MORTAL, CORRUPTIBLE, DISHONORABLE, and SINFUL/NAKED, and just as is the Spiritual One, so also are those who are Spiritual.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
This verse speaks for itself.

So Mountain Climber you may need to re-evaluate you understanding of Paul. If you would entertain Paul's teaching on Grace, all of what he is saying here would make perfect sense to you. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
Ken, you are quite welcome to begin with any premise you wish to use to decipher what Paul is telling you, but as for me, I will let Paul set the premise for what he speaks that my understanding of him not be my own imagination.

Paul's premise? 1 Corinthians 15:21 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”

So in that premise Paul has told you flat out that he is speaking of the point where Adam sinned forward.

Resist that premise if you must but you are pulling your premise out of your own mind, not Paul's, and that is throwing off your judgment as to what he is telling you.

When I feel like it I will do as you did and give each verse with the thought relating back to that correct premise. But until I do, at least try to figure it out for yourself using the premise I have here revealed to you. Or, just keep believing that you know Paul and cannot be wrong. That is your choice.

Added: Bear this in mind, that, Paul's premise is, 'through man came death', but your idea is making it out as, 'through God came death.'
 
Last edited:

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Ken, you are quite welcome to begin with any premise you wish to use to decipher what Paul is telling you, but as for me, I will let Paul set the premise for what he speaks that my understanding of him not be my own imagination.

Paul's premise? 1 Corinthians 15:21 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”

So in that premise Paul has told you flat out that he is speaking of the point where Adam sinned forward.

Resist that premise if you must but you are pulling your premise out of your own mind, not Paul's, and that is throwing off your judgment as to what he is telling you.

When I feel like it I will do as you did and give each verse with the thought relating back to that correct premise. But until I do, at least try to figure it out for yourself using the premise I have here revealed to you. Or, just keep believing that you know Paul and cannot be wrong. That is your choice.
Shalom Mountain Climber, thank you again for responding. Your premise is wrong, and here is why. When Paul interjects that the Spiritual Man was not first, but rather the carnal or natural man, he is doing this interjecting for a purpose. He has just explained the difference between the natural man and the Spiritual man, and how much better the Spiritual man is, and to most it would seem obvious that Elohim should have started out with the Spiritual man, and not the natural man. And your premise that you are trying to force upon what Paul has written is that the first Adam who became a living soul is not the natural man that Paul is speaking about here. Your premise is that the natural man came into existence AFTER the First Adam died, and that is you twisting and distorting Paul's words. It goes against where Paul states that Elohim BOUND or SHUT UP ALL in disobedience (Rm 11:32), so that He may have mercy on all. If Adam and Eve were not BOUND or SHUT UP in disobedience, then they are without mercy, but as far as Paul taught, he was positive that the FIRST Adam was carnal (bound or shut up in disobedience) when he became a LIVING SOUL.

I really think if you would try to explain what Paul meant when he stated Adam was a figure of the One to come (Rom 5:14), then we could resolve this dispute. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Shalom Mountain Climber, thank you again for responding. Your premise is wrong, and here is why. When Paul interjects that the Spiritual Man was not first, but rather the carnal or natural man, he is doing this interjecting for a purpose. He has just explained the difference between the natural man and the Spiritual man, and how much better the Spiritual man is, and to most it would seem obvious that Elohim should have started out with the Spiritual man, and not the natural man. And your premise that you are trying to force upon what Paul has written is that the first Adam who became a living soul is not the natural man that Paul is speaking about here. Your premise is that the natural man came into existence AFTER the First Adam died, and that is you twisting and distorting Paul's words. It goes against where Paul states that Elohim BOUND or SHUT UP ALL in disobedience (Rm 11:32), so that He may have mercy on all. If Adam and Eve were not BOUND or SHUT UP in disobedience, then they are without mercy, but as far as Paul taught, he was positive that the FIRST Adam was carnal (bound or shut up in disobedience) when he became a LIVING SOUL.

I really think if you would try to explain what Paul meant when he stated Adam was a figure of the One to come (Rom 5:14), then we could resolve this dispute. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
You are repeating yourself having not paid any attention to what I showed in previous posts concerning those very things you now once again mention.

You are like a child with no memory retention. Until I see that change I see no point in replying to you. I will not excuse you to keep being that child. If you wish to converse with me then you will have to show me you remember what I have already spoken to you, like how your idea that God shut us all up together in disobedience was not at man's creation as your ignorance is claiming. I showed you why in past posts but like a child with no memory retention you keep coming back with the same old things. And if that is not that you are as a child with no memory retention then it must be that you have no intentions of trying to understand as your goal is purely to have it your way right or wrong.

i don't do patience with ignorance that would just make me have to keep going in circles.

Good day.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
You are repeating yourself having not paid any attention to what I showed in previous posts concerning those very things you now once again mention.

You are like a child with no memory retention. Until I see that change I see no point in replying to you. I will not excuse you to keep being that child. If you wish to converse with me then you will have to show me you remember what I have already spoken to you, like how your idea that God shut us all up together in disobedience was not at man's creation as your ignorance is claiming. I showed you why in past posts but like a child with no memory retention you keep coming back with the same old things. And if that is not that you are as a child with no memory retention then it must be that you have no intentions of trying to understand as your goal is purely to have it your way right or wrong.

i don't do patience with ignorance that would just make me have to keep going in circles.

Good day.
Shalom Mountain Climber, I have a very good memory, and if my memory fails me, I can always do a search. You need to not be so quick to judge my attention level, for I did grasp and understand exactly what you were trying to say in your previous post, even though what you added was not there when I quoted it:

Added: Bear this in mind, that, Paul's premise is, 'through man came death', but your idea is making it out as, 'through God came death.'

Even though this was not "added" when I responded, my response still stands and I'm sorry you didn't grasp it's significance. You seem to think that just because death entered this world through the FIRST Adam, that would negate Paul's premise that the FIRST Adam was consigned/shut up/sold under sin by being created FLESH. Please consider Paul's premise that HE was SOLD into the bondage or slavery of sin by HIS FLESH/CARNALITY:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You seem to keep forgetting that the FIRST Adam was created FLESH, and that CARNALITY would have SOLD him into committing the FIRST transgression which allowed for death to enter into the world. Through that the one transgression of the FIRST Adam, sin entered the world, and that does not alter Paul's explanation of the carnal or natural man. You see, when Elohim gave the FIRST Adam the law to not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, Elohim would not have given that law to him IF the FIRST Adam was righteous:

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Paul's attitude is that when Elohim gives a law, it is given to the disobedient. You need to ask yourself, why did He give the FIRST Adam a law?

And then you need to grasp Paul's understanding of how giving a command to carnal man, produces death:

Rom 7:7-9

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Elohim forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The FIRST Adam would not have known sin except by being given a command, and when that command came, sin sprang to life, and death entered into the world. Who gave the command? Why did He give the command? Did He give the command so that they would have LIFE, or have DEATH?

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence (desire/passion/lust). For without the law sin [was] dead.
You could see this desire/passion/lust at work with Adam and Eve's FLESH when they were given the commandment (pleasant to the eyes and to be desired to make one wise).
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
This is what happened to the FIRST Adam.

So your "through man came death" doesn't change at all the reasoning of WHY didn't Elohim create The Spiritual Man FIRST, IF He did not PLAN the entering of death into the world by creating the FIRST Adam FLESH? If He didn't desire death to enter into the world, He should have created The Spiritual Man FIRST, not the natural or carnal man FIRST.

Now Mountain Climber, this can all be worked out for you if you would attempt to explain what Paul meant by saying Adam was a figure of the One to come. Why don't you take a stab at it, and we will do our best to show you who understands Paul. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Ken Brown said:
Shalom Mountain Climber, I have a very good memory, and if my memory fails me, I can always do a search. You need to not be so quick to judge my attention level, for I did grasp and understand exactly what you were trying to say in your previous post, even though what you added was not there when I quoted it:

Added: Bear this in mind, that, Paul's premise is, 'through man came death', but your idea is making it out as, 'through God came death.'

Even though this was not "added" when I responded, my response still stands and I'm sorry you didn't grasp it's significance.

The idea that I was even referring to that particular added comment to my last post proves you have a comprehension problem. I stated that you had not retained memory of what I posted in previous posts, not the post you were responding to. I even provided you an example.

Well, then I guess you can't help it so I will do my best to ignore it but I will tell you when you use the same old logic again that I have already answered to and simply point you back to that answer. I am not going to allow you to run me in circles like you are teasing a dog with it's tail.


Ken Brown said:
You seem to think that just because death entered this world through the FIRST Adam, that would negate Paul's premise that the FIRST Adam was consigned/shut up/sold under sin by being created FLESH.

You have not shown anything which proves Paul is saying or ever said that God created Adam already “consigned/shut up/sold under sin by being created FLESH.” All you have presented is your own speculation as you read extra into certain things Paul did say.

I, on the other hand, showed you exactly where man was “consigned/shut up under sin” in both Paul's words and in the opening chapter of the book of Genesis. (Notice however that I struck the word sold from the quote of your comment. There is a subtle difference between being consigned or shut up under sin and being sold under sin the way Paul speaks of these things.)

Genesis 3:15-24 is where God “consigned/shut up under sin.” Paul was not ignorant. He knew God did not have to let Adam have children. So by letting Adam have children, God “consigned/shut up” all “under sin”.


[Here as follows we see very clearly when God judged man and thus cosigned mankind to be all shut up together under sin: Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Not only did God not create Adam to be consigned under sin as you claim, but God did not even make such a judgement until Adam sinned: "by the offence of one judgment came upon all men"

Further: Man could not have been created sinners at Adam's creation as you claim, because: Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, ...."

It is quite obviously time for you to humbly reconsider your ideas and realize that you have not understood Paul as you claim.]

Ken Brown said:
Please consider Paul's premise that HE was SOLD into the bondage or slavery of sin by HIS FLESH/CARNALITY:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Genesis 3:6 is where Adam sold us under sin. Adam's actions sold us like slaves to his sin, and that was extremely selfish of him. That is what Paul has in mind at Romans 7:14.

At Romans 5:12 Paul points once again to that time of all being “sold under sin”, saying that it was the result of sin entering the world by one man's actions.


Ken Brown said:
You seem to keep forgetting that the FIRST Adam was created FLESH, and that CARNALITY would have SOLD him into committing the FIRST transgression which allowed for death to enter into the world. Through that the one transgression of the FIRST Adam, sin entered the world, and that does not alter Paul's explanation of the carnal or natural man. You see, when Elohim gave the FIRST Adam the law to not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, Elohim would not have given that law to him IF the FIRST Adam was righteous:

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Paul's attitude is that when Elohim gives a law, it is given to the disobedient. You need to ask yourself, why did He give the FIRST Adam a law?

I forgive you for that non-sense on the basis that you have bought the lie that the tree in the garden was a test. But you also are making the mistake of thinking that Paul's words about that Old Law Covenant apply to anytime God says don't do something, which is a load of rubbish. 1Tim 1:9 “…. the law is not made for a righteous man.....” It does not say all law as you are making it out to be. Paul meant very specifically that Old Law Covenant.

Any loving Father warns his children not to do things which would hurt them. And he doesn't do so because he knows or believes they have sin in them. In the case of the tree God was giving his children a loving warning concerning the potential harm inexperience can cause.


Ken Brown said:
And then you need to grasp Paul's understanding of how giving a command to carnal man, produces death:

Rom 7:7-9

I will look back in my writings and pull up one of my articles on that chapter and post it for you when I can get around to it. Hopefully then you will understand that chapter.

Ken Brown said:
Now Mountain Climber, this can all be worked out for you if you would attempt to explain what Paul meant by saying Adam was a figure of the One to come. Why don't you take a stab at it, and we will do our best to show you who understands Paul. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

That also proves your theory false, for Jesus was prefigured by Adam before Adam sinned.

Why though was sinless Adam a figure of Jesus? Was it that God had intended from before creating Adam that Jesus would have to step into Adam's place as the one who holds the covenant of life for mankind?

Let's see what we can find with regard to the question, 'Did God plan for Jesus to take Adam's place even before he created Adam?'

From the get-go that would make God disingenuous in what he told Adam and Eve:

Genesis 1:28 “And God blessed them<(Adam and Eve), and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

Obviously it was intended that Adam and Eve would remain the joint head of the human family.

But when sin entered the picture and God's justice demanded Adam's and Eve's disobedience be punished by death:


Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Obviously God's grace chose Jesus to replace Adam at or after Adam's sin, but not before.
 
Last edited:
Top