The Little Horn of Revelation

[sooda]

Its not prognostic. I think it is prophetic but doesn't predict future events. Its message is overall is to be patient. As noted its not written in order, and I suspect it is saying the same things repeatedly in different shades. There are seven churches, seven seals, seven angels, seven bowls and seven trumps. These allude to the concept of waiting for the completion of Jesus work, Jesus who is named after Joshua that leader who patiently circles Jericho seven times. Its all about waiting and says as much repeatedly every time it says "This calls for patience on the part of the saints." The saints are the ones who suffer to bring about the end result which is described in symbols. The point of the seven here I think is that we don't know how long just as Joshua doesn't know how many times he must circle Jericho.

I will only add that its ridiculous and irresponsible to teach people that there is a 7,000 year plan. Anybody who teaches that ought to sit on a tack.

Joshua is a fictional national hero. He didn't have any big armies. He didn't destroy any Canaanite cities.. Jericho was felled by earthquake which are common in the region.During the period of the Exodus Jericho had already been abandoned.

 

[sooda]

Don't you just love the ridiculous idea of prophecy? If God really wanted us to know the future, why did he wrap these predictions in all this confusing imagery? Why no just be clear: name, date, detailed accurate futurecast?

Apparently he doesn't care that people would have umpteen interpretations of what he is supposed to have said about the future. I am sure there will be several posts here suggesting that God only intended that his 'elect' should understand, then claim they are part of that 'elect.'

Schools for prophets were very popular in ancient Palestine from the time of Samuel. We have them currently in Atlanta, Georgia.

 

[sooda]

The book of Revelation is fiction, not prophecy. Perhaps it is a descriptions of actual visions by the author. But it is not prophetic.

Revelation is a letter to the 7 churches. Its Apocalyptic literature which was very popular for about 300 years. Its also originally Jewish. Its also pregnant with hyperbolic symbolism.

Its about encouraging the New Christians and Jews in diaspora and about the vengeance against the apostate Jews.

Its a hard slog, but easier if you study first century history.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Joshua is a fictional national hero. He didn't have any big armies. He didn't destroy any Canaanite cities.. Jericho was felled by earthquake which are common in the region.During the period of the Exodus Jericho had already been abandoned.

Lets say he's educational. Jesus is named after him, so his story is relevant for Revelation and all of its sevens. Here's Joshua and instead of attacking the city of Jericho he just marches around it. The walls fall in. There's no fighting. His story teaches a lesson of patience, and it represents the concept of the number seven as I understand it. Both Jesus and Joshua's name contains the meaning of salvation in it (explained both in gospels and previously in Numbers 13) and can be read very roughly as salvation through peace, but I am not translating more like emphasizing the peaceful aspect of it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No and neither does Judaism.. Danel was a character in Ugarit writings .. Daniel was NOT a real person. He was a literary device.

The various authors started with history during the Babylonian exile and got together and wrote encouragement to the Jews in 165 BC during the Maccabean Revolt and the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Says the preterist dogma! Sooda, truly if you have religious aspirations, you must free yourself from dogmatic belief. As it stands, anything explained to you that does not fit with preterism is rejected out of hand. This is no different to dogmatic believers of any tradition, sect, cult, denomination, or and subset of these.

Beyond that, I ask you the same question I do the atheists, if you don't believe in the prophecy, why bother commenting on a thread on this topic. If you want to register your reason for not believing, fine, but why not do it just once, like "I am a preterist/athiest/etc., and don't believe in it".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why does God make some goats and 0thers sheep. Funny God.
“The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts - so that their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and have me heal them.” John 12:40

That is called judgement friend, people are not equal in understanding what and who they are in the greater scheme of things, and thus from time to time in evolution, the slower ones need a different environment than the more evolved that better suits their opportunity to learn...a part of planetary karma. Even pastoralists do it from time to time, it's called culling.

The Cosmos is ordered, everyone is an expression of it, but they are not equal expressions. I suggest that it is wise to try and realize to the fullest, the unfoldment of the inherent potential within, but everyone has the free will to stay in their present unenlightened state.

 

[sooda]

Says the preterist dogma! Sooda, truly if you have religious aspirations, you must free yourself from dogmatic belief. As it stands, anything explained to you that does not fit with preterism is rejected out of hand. This is no different to dogmatic believers of any tradition, sect, cult, denomination, or and subset of these.

Beyond that, I ask you the same question I do the atheists, if you don't believe in the prophecy, why bother commenting on a thread on this topic. If you want to register your reason for not believing, fine, but why not do it just once, like "I am a preterist/athiest/etc., and don't believe in it".

LOL.. You don't have to be stupid to be a Christian.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but they are not equal expressions.

The question still is 'why'? It is bad engineering which necessitated the flood. After all, he is supposed to have the freedom to create humans in whatever way he wanted.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

LOL.. You don't have to be stupid to be a Christian.

The wise can and do learn from the stupid, but the stupid rarely learn from the wise.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The question still is 'why'? It is bad engineering which necessitated the flood. After all, he is supposed to have the freedom to create in whatever way he wanted.

Creation refers to everything that is going on in the Cosmos, it never ceases. Forms going out of existence and new one coming in, whether they be stars or humans. Immortality exists in the spiritual context, not the material. If you identify with your body as to what and who you are, alas you do not yet understand and will lament its passing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As noted its not written in order, and I suspect it is saying the same things repeatedly in different shades. There are seven churches, seven seals, seven angels, seven bowls and seven trumps. These allude to the concept of waiting for the completion of Jesus work, Jesus who is named after Joshua that leader who patiently circles Jericho seven times. Its all about waiting and says as much repeatedly every time it says "This calls for patience on the part of the saints." The saints are the ones who suffer to bring about the end result which is described in symbols. The point of the seven here I think is that we don't know how long just as Joshua doesn't know how many times he must circle Jericho.

You need to understand as to from where this fascination for seven has come about. This is a relic of IE-Aryan people from before the ice-age when they lived in the Arctic Circle. They had month-long dawn and dusk, a two-month long night, and seven months of continuous sunshine. The sun faltered in the eighth month. The IE considered the human race to be formed from the eighth sun. The Jews picked up the idea from the Zoroastrians when they were in exile in Iraq/Iran.

"saptabhiḥ putrairaditirupa praita pūrvyaṃ yugam l prajāyai mṛityave tvat punarmārtāṇḍamābharat ll"
(So with her Seven Sons Aditi went forth to meet the earlier age; She brought Martanda forward to spring to life and die again.)
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

"Naturally enough we must, therefore, interpret it (X, 72, 9) in the same way where it occurs again in the same hymn (X, 72, 2), viz. in the verse describing the legend of Aditi’s seven sons. The sun having seven rays, or seven horses, also implies the same idea differently expressed. The seven months of sunshine, with their different temperatures, are represented by seven suns producing these different results by being differently located, or as having different kinds of rays, or as having different chariots, or horses, or different wheels to the same chariot. It is one and the same idea in different forms, or as the RigVeda puts it, “one horse with seven names” (I.164.2).

- We begin with the sun. He is described as seven-horsed (saptâshva) in V, 45, 9, and his chariot is described as seven wheeled, or yoked with seven horses, or one seven-named horse in I, 164, 3. The seven bay steeds (haritah) are also mentioned as drawing the carriage of the sun in I, 50, 8.
- Indra is called sapta-rashmi in II, 12, 12, and his chariot, is also said to be seven-rayed in VI, 44, 24.
- Agni is described as sapta-rashmi or seven-rayed in I, 146, 1, and his rays are expressly said to be seven in II, 5, 2. His horses are similarly described as seven-tongued in III, 6, 2.
- Seven dhîtis, prayers or devotions of sacrificial priests, are mentioned in IX, 8, 4.
- Foods are said to be seven in III, 4, 7.
- The chariot of Soma and Pûshan is described as five-rayed and seven-wheeled in II, 40, 3.
- Seven vipras (III, 7, 7), or seven sacrificers (hotârah), are mentioned in several places (III, 10, 4; IV, 2, 15; X, 63, 7).
- Bṛihaspati, the first-born sacrificer, is described as seven-mouthed or saptâsya in IV, 50, 4, and the same verse occurs in the Atharva Veda (XX, 88, 4).
- Seven divisions of the earth are mentioned in I, 22, 16.
- The cows’ stable which the Ashvins opened is said to be saptâsya or seven-mouthed in X, 40, 8."
(Quotes from RigVeda as mentioned in B.G.Tilak's book, "Arctic Home in the Vedas")

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What would also come into play are the seven colors of the rainbow which would have been noted by humans since the dawn of civilization, and also the seven electron shells...oh wait!

 

[Brickjectivity]

You need to understand as to from where this fascination for seven has come about. This is a relic of IE-Aryan people from before the ice-age when they lived in the Arctic Circle. They had month-long dawn and dusk, a two-month long night, and seven months of continuous sunshine. The sun faltered in the eighth month. The IE considered the human race to be formed from the eighth sun. The Jews picked up the idea from the Zoroastrians when they were in exile in Iraq/Iran.

I appreciate your info!

The story of Joshua predates the story of Jesus by many centuries. Jesus is founded upon that character, Joshua. He is named after him. In the story of Joshua which by far predates the story of Jesus the number seven is not about the human race being formed from the eighth sun but has a different theme. The symbol is not the same symbol anymore. For some reason the old theme is rejected in the Joshua story.

While the number 7 is a popular symbol in many cultures it, like most things in the Bible books, is appropriated and re-purposed with different themes. Whatever symbol comes from the Zoroastrians will be tweaked and reworked into a different system with a different use for the symbol. That is true for the Garden of Eden, for Noah and his ark, for the tower of Babel, for any Egyptian symbols, too.

"Naturally enough we must, therefore, interpret it (X, 72, 9) in the same way where it occurs again in the same hymn (X, 72, 2), viz. in the verse describing the legend of Aditi’s seven sons. The sun having seven rays, or seven horses, also implies the same idea differently expressed. The seven months of sunshine, with their different temperatures, are represented by seven suns producing these different results by being differently located, or as having different kinds of rays, or as having different chariots, or horses, or different wheels to the same chariot. It is one and the same idea in different forms, or as the RigVeda puts it, “one horse with seven names” (I.164.2).

- We begin with the sun. He is described as seven-horsed (saptâshva) in V, 45, 9, and his chariot is described as seven wheeled, or yoked with seven horses, or one seven-named horse in I, 164, 3. The seven bay steeds (haritah) are also mentioned as drawing the carriage of the sun in I, 50, 8.
- Indra is called sapta-rashmi in II, 12, 12, and his chariot, is also said to be seven-rayed in VI, 44, 24.
- Agni is described as sapta-rashmi or seven-rayed in I, 146, 1, and his rays are expressly said to be seven in II, 5, 2. His horses are similarly described as seven-tongued in III, 6, 2.
- Seven dhîtis, prayers or devotions of sacrificial priests, are mentioned in IX, 8, 4.
- Foods are said to be seven in III, 4, 7.
- The chariot of Soma and Pûshan is described as five-rayed and seven-wheeled in II, 40, 3.
- Seven vipras (III, 7, 7), or seven sacrificers (hotârah), are mentioned in several places (III, 10, 4; IV, 2, 15; X, 63, 7).
- Bṛihaspati, the first-born sacrificer, is described as seven-mouthed or saptâsya in IV, 50, 4, and the same verse occurs in the Atharva Veda (XX, 88, 4).
- Seven divisions of the earth are mentioned in I, 22, 16.
- The cows’ stable which the Ashvins opened is said to be saptâsya or seven-mouthed in X, 40, 8."
(Quotes from RigVeda as mentioned in B.G.Tilak's book, "Arctic Home in the Vedas")

The story of Joshua may not be as old as the Vedas. It is part of a story of a culture that diverges from other cultures and rewrites things. That culture has a calendar which is loosely based on sevens, and rather than having an accurate calendar like the Babylonians and Zoroastrians they choose to have an inaccurate calendar that is started at different times each year. I'm not sure why, but maybe its so they can't predict things like eclipses? Anyways its counter to what everybody else wants. The symbol seven is part of that and probably loses any possible Vedic relationship, and there are probably other symbols borrowed and reworked, too.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is copied from B. G. Tilak’s book, “Arctic Home in Vedas”. The book is available at https://archive.org/details/TilakLokamanyaTheArcticHomeInTheVedas1903470P, in case anyone is interested in reading it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Whatever symbol comes from the Zoroastrians will be tweaked and reworked into a different system with a different use for the symbol.

That culture has a calendar which is loosely based on sevens, and rather than having an accurate calendar like the Babylonians and Zoroastrians they choose to have an inaccurate calendar that is started at different times each year. I'm not sure why, but maybe its so they can't predict things like eclipses?

Even the flood. Avesta mentions a flood by snow when Yima, the king, was warned by Ahur Mazda. It was not a watery flood as in case of Noah. That may pertain to ice-age.

Indian religious astronomy was very exact for its time even with different dates of beginning. As in Hindu religion, even in astronomy we have differences of opinion. Nothing new with us. In my community (Kashmiri Brahmins), we have two kinds of calendars, one beginning with New Moon (Amavasyanta) and the other beginning with Full Moon (Purnimanta).
Hindu calendar - Wikipedia

Indians were aware of precession of equinox and changed the beginning of the year over 6,000 years by three months. I am of the opinion that Christmas is the uncorrected beginning of the year which for IE people was vernal equinox (Festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti). The Zoroastrians, Greeks and Romans did not change the beginning of the year with the precession of equinox and only Indians did it. And we used both the solar and the lunar calendar (Lunar for religious purposes and Solar for civil purposes) and never had any problem. Prediction of eclipses was small fry.

"The Indian Calendar Reform Committee, appointed in 1952, identified more than thirty well-developed calendars, in use across different parts of India."
Hindu calendar - Wikipedia

 

[12jtartar]

The beast is not a person because of the text in red.
The heads and horns and crowns are in blue.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The woman is sitting upon all of the nations of the world. The beast is international.

12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Daniel 7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out...

The Book of Revelation is not written in order, as Daniel plainly shows. The horns represent power, and are sovereign because of their crowns. When the three horns are rooted out, their power and sovereignty is gone. The little horn is a power, but the three who sponsored her are not powerful or even sovereign.

________________________
Here's the debatable questions: Who are the three uprooted horns? Who's the little horn?
_____________________________________________________

OtherSheep,
It is difficult to explain many things in the Bible, because, in order for you to understand, there must be some understanding of what is going on at the time, and how the things mentioned are understood to the contemporaries. I will try, a little.
This Little Horn is when the 7th head starts to exist, and started out as Britain, back in the 1500s. Britain, the Little horn, fought against France, Spain and the Netherlands, to become the dominant power at that time.
To understand this you need to read Daniel chapters 7&8, where this Little horn is shone to be the Seventh head of the Great Beast mentioned at Revelation 13.
After WW2 the United States became the dominant part, or head of the seven headed Wild Beast.
You must understand Daniel 6&7, and Revelation 13, 17.
Now, all the information mentioned in Daniel Cs ,2, 6,7. If you understand these correctly, all the information is in complete harmony.
Remember, the Bible is accurate, so all fits together, so if you are told something that just does not fit with other Scriptures, it cannot be accurate.

 

[Wandering Monk]

OtherSheep,
It is difficult to explain many things in the Bible, because, in order for you to understand, there must be some understanding of what is going on at the time, and how the things mentioned are understood to the contemporaries. I will try, a little.
This Little Horn is when the 7th head starts to exist, and started out as Britain, back in the 1500s. Britain, the Little horn, fought against France, Spain and the Netherlands, to become the dominant power at that time.
To understand this you need to read Daniel chapters 7&8, where this Little horn is shone to be the Seventh head of the Great Beast mentioned at Revelation 13.
After WW2 the United States became the dominant part, or head of the seven headed Wild Beast.
You must understand Daniel 6&7, and Revelation 13, 17.
Now, all the information mentioned in Daniel Cs ,2, 6,7. If you understand these correctly, all the information is in complete harmony.
Remember, the Bible is accurate, so all fits together, so if you are told something that just does not fit with other Scriptures, it cannot be accurate.

This is the umpteenth different interpretation I have heard about these passages. It is just a game people play.

 

[12jtartar]

If I stayed focused on the End Time, in the present day, I would lose it and blow my brains out. For me the best I can do is to focus on being pleasing to God, and doing what he has already told me. I trust him to keep loving me as he always has.

Ellen Brown,
You seem to have a good attitude, but we should not just stay where we are, we should try to learn more about what God’s requirements for us are.
There are many things that are mentioned in the Scriptures. Many people look at these Scriptures as a fence around us, so we can’t do anything we want to, but that is not correct, these rules given by God are for our protection, and if we obey, we will be protected from outside dangers, not hemmed in to keep us from doing many things that we want to do.
I’d seems that the most important thing we should try to do, is follow in Jesus’ footsteps, 1Peter 2:21. Jesus was baptized, he helped people whenever he could, and especially he taught all he could about God’s kingdom.
If we truly have a good heart, God will draw us together with other people who love God, John 6:44, 14:6. Many that are drawn do not stay with God, for one reason or another, Matthew 13:13-15. Our heart is what will make us acceptable to God. Mark 7:6-23. The Bible says that no wicked will understand, Daniel 12:10. Even if they are shone favor, they will not understand righteousness, Isaiah 26:10.
To be able to understand the Bible, we must be humble as a little child is, Matthew 18:1-7. We need to pray to God for the wisdom to understand His word, James 1:5, and this is especially needed to understand the deeper things of God, and not put our trust in what men say, Jeremiah 17:5, Psalms 146:3,3, 1Corinthians 2:1-16. Agape!!!

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ellen Brown,
You seem to have a good attitude, but we should not just stay where we are, we should try to learn more about what God’s requirements for us are.
There are many things that are mentioned in the Scriptures. Many people look at these Scriptures as a fence around us, so we can’t do anything we want to, but that is not correct, these rules given by God are for our protection, and if we obey, we will be protected from outside dangers, not hemmed in to keep us from doing many things that we want to do.
I’d seems that the most important thing we should try to do, is follow in Jesus’ footsteps, 1Peter 2:21. Jesus was baptized, he helped people whenever he could, and especially he taught all he could about God’s kingdom.
If we truly have a good heart, God will draw us together with other people who love God, John 6:44, 14:6. Many that are drawn do not stay with God, for one reason or another, Matthew 13:13-15. Our heart is what will make us acceptable to God. Mark 7:6-23. The Bible says that no wicked will understand, Daniel 12:10. Even if they are shone favor, they will not understand righteousness, Isaiah 26:10.
To be able to understand the Bible, we must be humble as a little child is, Matthew 18:1-7. We need to pray to God for the wisdom to understand His word, James 1:5, and this is especially needed to understand the deeper things of God, and not put our trust in what men say, Jeremiah 17:5, Psalms 146:3,3, 1Corinthians 2:1-16. Agape!!!

In my opinion, you have done as most people do in that you can't believe that God requires so little of us. You can't accept simplicity, so you try to second guess God, effectively becoming God, doing as satan did. God knows what things we are capable of and responsible for, and what satan does to befoul the desires of God.

I won't stoop to berating you. The solution lies in your own heart.

It is clear to me that satan has greatly interfered with the composing and interpretation of our religious books. To add to that those who read those befouled documents often interpret them more stringently than they were intended to be.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The beast is not a person because of the text in red.
The heads and horns and crowns are in blue.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The woman is sitting upon all of the nations of the world. The beast is international.

12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Daniel 7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out...

The Book of Revelation is not written in order, as Daniel plainly shows. The horns represent power, and are sovereign because of their crowns. When the three horns are rooted out, their power and sovereignty is gone. The little horn is a power, but the three who sponsored her are not powerful or even sovereign.

________________________
Here's the debatable questions: Who are the three uprooted horns? Who's the little horn?
_____________________________________________________

So who do you suppose the woman is in Revelation 17:3.

First of all, the horns in Daniel represents power, Where as in Revelation horns represents kings.

Revelation 17:12---" And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"

So who do you suppose the beast is that ascends out of the bottomless pit is ?

Revelation 17:8---"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is"

In verse 8 above there's lays a clue as to who this beast is.
Notice ( Perdition) there's only one who is sentence to Perdition,
Perdition means = destruction = destroyed.

So who is this that God has already sentence to be destroyed ?
Further more there is no little horn spoken about in the book of Revelation.

As for Revelation 13:1, if you had notice the verse does say, ( And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.)
Which clearly shows this is a person
( And upon his horns ten crowns)

The question is, Who do you suppose those
Seven heads represents, that shall come with the beast?
Revelation 17:10-12
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"