The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

[lostwanderingsoul]

I believe I know what I am doing: what Jesus wants me to do and that is restful as opposed to those who think they have to figure out everything from a book.

I heard of a guy who robbed a bank and said he did it because God wanted him to do it. Just proves we sometimes do not really know. Especially when God says something in the Bible and we do not follow it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Your confused my dear friend. GENESIS 2:1-3 is when the SABBATH was made. It is the origin of the SABBATH that God made for all mankind that JESUS is the LORD of *MARK 2:27-28 and commands His people to keep as a holy day *EXODUS 20:8-11. God did not rest, set apart the seventh day and made it a holy day of rest for himself. The scriptures say that he made it for mankind MARK 2:27. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day of creation *GENESIS 1:26-29 and the SABBATH was created for all mankind on the SEVENTH DAY of the creation week as a part of the finished work of creation.

This is an unfounded claim that is not biblical as shown in an earlier post through the scriptures that before the WRITTEN WORD of GOD there was the SPOKEN WORD of GOD * GENESIS 3:1-3; 9; 11-19 8:15; 9:8; 24:7; 31:11 etc).

God said of Abraham that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MAY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS. The HEBREW word used for laws is TORAH. So, it is very clear that the SPOKEN WORD of GOD included God’s TORAH. The TORAH includes all God's LAWS of the OLD COVENANT from God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and the SHADOW laws for remission of sin (burn't offerings) if God's LAW was broken.

If they had no law BEFORE the written WORD of GOD then they would have no knowledge of what sin is. If they did not know what sin was there would have been no need of sin offerings. Yet here we also see in GENESIS 22:2-7 that it was a regular practice for Abraham and his family to offer burnt offerings for sin *LEVITICUS 1:4. So before Mt Sinai God’s people had the SPOKEN Word of God after slavery to the Egyptians at Mt Sinai they received the WRITTEN Word of God but even before this they knew about God's SABBATH as shown in EXODUS 16. All through time God’s people had a knowledge of what sin (breaking God's Law) was and what to do if sin was committed.

Some more examples...

The purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. Sin therefore is the transgression of God's law *1 JOHN 3:4

Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7; Matthew 15:19). Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin

Jacob knew about SIN (breaking God's LAW) BEFORE Mt Sinia when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

There was many examples of sin (breaking God's Law) in the old testament scriptures before Mt Sinai...

...........

GENESIS 13:13, But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

GENESIS 18:20, And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous

GENESIS 4:7 If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

GENESIS 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

GENESIS 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said to him, What have you done to us? and what have I offended you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? you have done deeds to me that ought not to be done.

GENESIS 31:36 And Jacob was wroth, and strived with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that you have so hotly pursued after me?

GENESIS 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither has he kept back any thing from me but you, because you are his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

GENESIS 42:22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spoke I not to you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and you would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.

GENESIS 50:17 So shall you say to Joseph, Forgive, I pray you now, the trespass of your brothers, and their sin; for they did to you evil: and now, we pray you, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of your father. And Joseph wept when they spoke to him.

..............

to many more examples but we will stop here...

Addressed above already. You have Sabbath observance at creation which God created on the SEVENTH DAY for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3. The scriptures say that he made it for mankind MARK 2:27. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day of creation *GENESIS 1:26-29 and the SABBATH was created for all mankind on the SEVENTH DAY of the creation week as a part of the finished work of creation.

Nonsense. No one show faith by not believing and following what Gods Word says. I asked you are question some time ago. Who has faith the one that believes and does what God's Word says or the one that hears God's Word but does not do what God's Word says? I suggest you read HEBREWS 11 and JAMES 2:18-20; 26. Let's get this straight. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

I am sorry my friend consider your actions, as I believe God's Word disagrees with you. In times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable to sin until we receieve a knowledge of the truth of God's Word *ACTS 17:30-31. Once we have been given a knowledge of the truth if God's Word and we reject God's Word to continue in sin I believe the scriptures teach there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39. The question is my friend I believe your at a crossroad. What will you do? I would pray and seek God through his Word and see if these things be true.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Firstly, let's see if we can tackle the issue of sin.

You define sin as BREAKING GOD'S LAW. The problem with this definition is that it is only a partial explanation. It's true, but not enough to explain fully what sin entails. Listen to Romans 2:12-16:

'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.'

If your definition of sin were all-encompassing, it would have included sins that are committed in thought and conscience as well as in deed. This is why Jesus, in Matthew 5 shows us that 'whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:' and 'whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her in his heart.' The written law does not cover the inner sins, only the outer doing of the law.

This is why your examples of sin prior to Moses are not examples of sin against the law, but sins against the heart and conscience. Joseph, for example, was not under God's covenant of law, but under the law 'written in his heart' (as well as Egyptian law) and he knew instinctively that it was a sin to abuse the trust of his earthly master, Potiphar, and take (sexually) what had been placed in his care. It can still be defined as sin, even if it is not a transgression of the written law, or Ten Commandments.

'Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.' [Matthew 23:27,28.]

The reason that love sets a whole new standard of truth is that it deals with both the inner, spiritual needs, and outer life of a believer. Love has a cleansing effect on the soul, and it brings forth fruit for good works.

Okay, you say, this deals with all the moral commandments. What about the fourth commandment? Well, look back at Romans 2:14. It says that Gentiles can do the things contained in the law, which means that they 'shew the work of the law written in their hearts'. Now, I don't see that Gentiles can know and follow the Jewish sabbath as a matter of 'nature'! They don't, but nevertheless, 'he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.' In other words, Gentiles can please God by love 'in the spirit', and not in the letter.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paul was called by "Jesus" according to Paul and Paul's associates. Self witnessing is "not true" (John 5:31). With respect to the prophets, king Saul was called by God, as was Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13). King Saul apparently harbored a unclean spirit, and his desire was to kill king David. As for "believers" lead to the truth, keep in mind that the demons "believe", yet they have need to tremble. As for the truth, Yeshua was the truth/Word/Way made flesh, yet you have apparently contaminated the bread of life with the leaven of the Pharisee.

With the anointing of the Spirit, one does not need any teacher, including Paul, for the Spirit will bring to mind the testimony of Yeshua. (1 John 2:27).

As already shown, Paul is given the stamp of approval by the twelve apostles in Jerusalem. Acts 15:25, 'It seemed good unto us [the apostles and elders in Jerusalem], being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,'

Paul was the chosen apostle to the Gentiles, and I, for one, am happy that he took the message of salvation into the Gentile world. His preaching made Christ known, but the Spirit always came with the authority of Christ Himself.

If your version of events were anywhere near the truth, there would be no Church, and that itself would be a distortion of the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

 

[3rdAngel]

You do know RS that nothing you have posted here has anything to do with what you are quoting from. You simply ignored the post you are quoting from like the other posts shared with you I guess. At least I read all your posts and respond to them section by section and scripture by scripture. I would hope you could provide the same courtesy. I have broken these down into smally posts to talk detail....

2 Peter 3:8 has nothing to do with the weekly sabbath but it has everything to do with Genesis 2:3. God's 4th commandment is not applicable until after it is given by God at Mount Sinai. The Ten Commandments form the core of the COVENANT made with Israel.

You are correct in saying that 2 PETER 3:8 has nothing to do with God's SABBATH or GENESIS 2:1-3. It is talking about the second comings delay because God is not willing that anyone should be lost and perish and that day will come as a theif in the night *2 PETER 3:2-12. The rest of your post in this section is only you repeating yourself and is not biblical. This is demonstrated in scriptures provided in post # 597 and post # 598 linked, that you chose to ignore.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hebrews 4:1-5 is about God's rest, not the weekly sabbath.

God does not need rest. God's rest that he has given to all mankind is defined in GENESIS 2:1-3 and in HEBREWS 4:1-5 as the "SEVENTH DAY" that God RESTED, "SANCTIFIED", "BLESSED" and made a "HOLY DAY". This is God's SABBATH *EXODUS 20:10 which remains for the people of God to keep *HEBREWS 4:9. The SABBATH is indeed God's REST as is HEBREWS 4:1-5

DEFINING GOD’S REST – HEBREWS 4

Letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures. We read in God's 4th commandment of the 10..

EXODUS 20:10 [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God;

This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK which is a direct reference back to the creation week from when it was made as shown in v11.

EXODUS 20:11 [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and MADE IT HOLY.

NOTE: It is the SEVENTH DAY (SABBATH) that God RESTED so the SABBATH defined as the SEVENTH DAY of the WEEK is GOD'S REST. NOTE EXODUS 20:11 is a direct reference back to GENESIS 2:1-3 which is a direct reference back to GENESIS 2:3 descibing the reason for GOD's 4th Commandment SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is that GOD BLESSED THE SABBATH (defined as the SEVENTH DAY in v10) and made it a HOLY DAY.

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

NOTE: The reason for the Sabbath Commandment is to REMEMBER the God of creation. HE RESTED IS GOD'S REST (verb) which God's WORD says is the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK WHICH IS CALLED SABBATH (noun), BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK and made it a HOLY DAY that no work is to be done. v11 Refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 and the origin of the Sabbath which is the SEVENTH DAY. v8 shows that this commandment is a MEMORIAL of creation v11 [the reason for the 4th commandment]. It is very clear as we look through the scriptures and let the scriptures interpret themselves that GOD MADE THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH FOR MANKIND. It is also one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of SIN when broken.

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the sabbath:[28], so that the Son of man is LORD OF THE SABBATH (creator).

The GREEK word highlighted here for MAN in MARK 2:27 is ἄνθρωπος; anthrōpos (G444) which means HUMAN BEING or mankind.

CONCLUSION: The SABBATH as defined in God's Word as *EXODUS 20:10 is the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK because God BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY and made it a HOLY DAY in EXODUS 20:11 repeating GENESIS 2:1-3. The Hebrew word for REST 7673 שָׁבַת shâbath, is the verb used for KEEPING THE SABBATH by RESTING. The person doing the RESTING was GOD the creator of heaven and earth. God's WORD also defines GOD'S REST therefore as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH that God created for all mankind.

While the Hebrew word for SABBATH 7676 שַׁבָּת shabbâth, is the noun or the name of what is being kept which is the SEVENTH DAY that God RESTED on and BLESSED and made HOLY. The reason the SABBATH was made was for mankind to REST, CELEBRATE and REMEMBER GOD'S CREATION *EXODUS 20:8 and the GOD as the CREATOR and LORD of the SABBATH *MARK 2:27-28.

.............

Linking EXODUS 20:8-11 and GENESIS 2:1-3 to HEBREWS 4 and God's REST.

The CONTEXT that you ignore here is HEBREWS 4:1-5 which is discussing GOD'S REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH with reference back to GENENSIS 2:1-3. That is the REST we are to enter into. Those that did not enter into GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) did not enter into God's REST because of SIN and UNBELIEF in the gosple of God's WORD.

See HEBREWS 3 WILDERNESS not entering into God’s REST…

EZEKIEL 20:10-13 [10], Why I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and BROGHT THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11], AND I GAVE THEM MY STATUTES, AND SHOWED THEM MY JUDGMENTS, WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM. [12], Moreover ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SBBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM. [13], But THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: THEY WALKED NOT IN MY STATUTES AND DISPISED MY JUDGMENTS WHICH IF A MAN DO THEY SHALL LIVE IN THEM AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLUTED: THEN I SAID I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
[5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST! Let's continue...

6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

[10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).

.............

CONCLUSION: HEBREWS 4 is talking about God's weekly Sabbath rest and the Gospel rest of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. HEBREWS 4:1-11 is in reference to GOD'S REST which God's WORD defines is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is the CONTEXT shown in HEBREWS 4:1-5. HEBREWS 4 therefore with context added is saying that no one enter God's Sabbath rest if they do not BELIEVE AND FOLLOW God's WORD.

 

[3rdAngel]

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath rest) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

STRONGS LEXICON
So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive.
there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people.
of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Hope this is helpful..

 

[3rdAngel]

Mark 2:27-28 IS about the weekly sabbath and states that Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. It is in HIM that we find our true rest.

MARK 2:27-28 from the very words of JESUS says [27] THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MEN, and not man for the sabbath: In verse [28], we read Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. That is, JESUS is the "LORD of the SABBATH" LORD G2962 Greek meaning here κύριος; kurios From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller ; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir. That is JESUS is the creator God of the SEVENTH DAY weekly SABBATH that he made for ALL MANKIND v27.

Under grace we do not 'keep the whole law'. We keep the law of the Spirit, which is LOVE. That's why it says in James 2:13, 'mercy rejoiceth against judgment'.

Nonesense. Where does it say in the scriptures we do not keep the law because we are under Grace? If you mean we are not saved by the law absolutely we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 than this is correct. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW what Gods Word says. Doing what God's Word says is the FRUIT of faith that works by a new heart that LOVES given in the new covenant promise of a new heart *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. This is God's work in us * PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate love and law as it is the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed. This is the same as how we express our faith by doing what God asks us to do. The law of the Spirit is LOVE and it is LOVE that establishes the law in those who believe and follow God's Word.

This is why PAUL writes... "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law' ROMANS 3:31 and again in ROMANS 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

According to the scriptures the reason God's GRACE is given for mankind is for obedience to the faith..

ROMANS 1:5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

TITUS 2:11-12 [11], FOR THE GRACE OF GOD HAS APPEARED BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MEN, [12], TEACHING US, THAT, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY JUSTS, WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY, RIGHTOUESLY AND GODLY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD

ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND?. [2], How HOW SHALL WE WHO ARE DEAD TO SIN LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN?

Hope this is helpful

 

[3rdAngel]

And, tell me, where do you find the scripture that the Ten Commandments gives us knowledge of good and evil?

GOOD; RIGHTEOUS AND RIGHTOUESNESS is defined as right doing or RIGHTEOUSNESS and Evil (wikedness and wrong doing) as SIN in the bible. God's LAW (10 commandments) is the standard of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN (if broken) AND RIGHTEOUSNESS (if obeyed from the heart through faith). This is rather a longer detailed study but can be seen here and gives us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172; GENESIS 6:5; MATTHEW 15:18-19.

If this were the case, then God's original commandment, not to eat of the fruit of the tree (of the knowledge of good and evil), is strange indeed. Was it not Satan that encouraged the eating of this fruit? Yet, according to you, Satan was encouraging knowledge of the Ten Commandments.

I believe this is a good study in it self. I believe eating of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil represents mankinds fall from walking with God. Man was perfect and in God's image before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. Since the fall man because as God knowing GOOD AND EVIL *GENESIS 3:5; GENESIS 3:22. When we were perfect with God we did not need God's LAW as we had no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL as we were always good. After disobedience to God's command not to eat of the tree mankind knew evil (breaking God' commandments). Today it is God's LAW that gives us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; PSALMS 119:172.

Is it the Ten Commandments that makes one wise? Is it the Ten Commandments that make us self-sufficient and not God-sufficient? If that's the case, then it's knowledge of the Ten Commandments that caused Adam and Eve to lose their fellowship. So, what you're saying is that knowledge of the Ten Commandments led to the original sin! I'd never thought of Eve's temptation like that before. Even more reason to walk by faith and not under law!

Your confused here I believe. All God's 10 commandments do is give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is not how we are saved it is only God's standard of GOOD and EVIL. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. Mankind never needed it before as they did not know what evil was before they sinned and broke God's commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL.

 

[McBell]

Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)

God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.

Seems like an awful lot of useless, meaningless, semantic nit picking if you honestly believe God created everything.
I mean, if God created everything, ALL days are the Lords Days.

But what I find most interesting is how so many people believe their god to be so petty over days of the week.

 

[2ndpillar]

As already shown, Paul is given the stamp of approval by the twelve apostles in Jerusalem. Acts 15:25, 'It seemed good unto us [the apostles and elders in Jerusalem], being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,'

Paul was the chosen apostle to the Gentiles, and I, for one, am happy that he took the message of salvation into the Gentile world. His preaching made Christ known, but the Spirit always came with the authority of Christ Himself.

If your version of events were anywhere near the truth, there would be no Church, and that itself would be a distortion of the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

You are putting the writings of some unknown author of Acts on the same plain as the Word of God. As for Acts 15:25, Paul, Judas/Barnabas, and Silas were simply sent with the message to "abstain from fornication, from things contaminated by idols, and from what is strangled and from blood". Paul taught none of those things, and actually preached the opposite.

As for the true "church", it remains in the wings, and is simply waiting for Babylon to be thrown in the sea (Revelation 18:21). That will be after two days (2 millennium), on the 3rd day (Hosea 6:1-3). At that time, the wicked/lawless will be judged in the valley of judgment (Har-Megido), and the sun and the moon will grow dark and the stars loose their brightness (Joel 3:12-14).

 

[3rdAngel]

Firstly, let's see if we can tackle the issue of sin. You define sin as BREAKING GOD'S LAW. The problem with this definition is that it is only a partial explanation. It's true, but not enough to explain fully what sin entails.

Listen to Romans 2:12-16:
'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.'

If your definition of sin were all-encompassing, it would have included sins that are committed in thought and conscience as well as in deed. This is why Jesus, in Matthew 5 shows us that 'whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:' and 'whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her in his heart.' The written law does not cover the inner sins, only the outer doing of the law.

Well here is the thing. It is not my definition of sin it is the bibles definition of sin. God's Word not mine says that sin is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. I believe this is clearly stated in these scriptures...

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

repeated in detail again here…

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

John talk about the same thing as Paul does here...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], WHOEVER COMMITS SIN TRANSGRESSES ALSO THE LAW: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

James also talks about the same thing as Paul and John here...

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. Now if you COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.


If we do not believe and follow God's Word this is also sin...

ROMANS 14:23 … FOR WHATEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

The above scriptures are all encompassing and always has been all encompassing. The fact that the Scribes and the Pharisees did not understand this does not add weight to what you are sharing here. The standard here has always been to the heart (our very thoughts and feelings). This is why the earth was destroyed with a flood *GENESIS 6:5 the thoughts of the imagination of the heart was only evil and evil continually. MATTHEW 5 is JESUS showing us that the application of God's LAW (10 commandments) has always been the same and that is to the very things we think about and that God's salvation is from the INSIDE OUT and not the outward appearance of the Scribes and Pharisees.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART.

BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defiles a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

Can we have GRACE without God's LAW if the purpose of God's LAW is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172?

 

[3rdAngel]

This is why your examples of sin prior to Moses are not examples of sin against the law, but sins against the heart and conscience. Joseph, for example, was not under God's covenant of law, but under the law 'written in his heart' (as well as Egyptian law) and he knew instinctively that it was a sin to abuse the trust of his earthly master, Potiphar, and take (sexually) what had been placed in his care. It can still be defined as sin, even if it is not a transgression of the written law, or Ten Commandments.

I am sorry this is not biblical. As shown all through the scriptures already sin is defined as breaking God's LAW *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. Sin is shown all through the old testament scriptures in posts here and here (linked) and also that God's people before the written Word of God had the Spoken Word of God and knew and kept God's laws *GENESIS 26:5. This is the same as Genesis 20:3-9 and Genesis 39:7-9 that describe adultery as “a great sin” and a “sin against God.” Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.

Okay, you say, this deals with all the moral commandments. What about the fourth commandment? Well, look back at Romans 2:14. It says that Gentiles can do the things contained in the law, which means that they 'shew the work of the law written in their hearts'. Now, I don't see that Gentiles can know and follow the Jewish sabbath as a matter of 'nature'! They don't, but nevertheless, 'he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.' In other words, Gentiles can please God by love 'in the spirit', and not in the letter.

God's 10 commandments is how LOVE is expressed. The first four our our duty of LOVE to God and the second six our duty of love to our fellow man. This is why JESUS says on these two great commandments (love to God and love to man) hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40 and why JESUS says RS, "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS *JOHN 14:15.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[3rdAngel]

Seems like an awful lot of useless, meaningless, semantic nit picking if you honestly believe God created everything.
I mean, if God created everything, ALL days are the Lords Days.

But what I find most interesting is how so many people believe their god to be so petty over days of the week.

It is about believing and following what God's Word says. This is what faith is and for a Christian our salvation is by faith which is believing and following God's Word. I believe that the scriptures teach that God's 4th Commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172; JAMES 2:10-11. Sunday worship is not biblical and simply a man made tradition and teaching that breaks the commandments of God. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th Commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. JESUS says in his own words that anyone that knowingly follows man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God. Something to pray and think about in my opinion. I believe God has his people in every Church *JOHN 10:16 living up to all the knowledge God has given them *ACTS 17:30-31. According to the scriptures the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth because God is a Spirit and those who whorship him must whorship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 18:1-5. God's Sheep will hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.

 

[McBell]

It is about believing and following what God's Word says. This is what faith is and for a Christian our salvation is by faith which is believing and following God's Word. I believe that the scriptures teach that God's 4th Commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172; JAMES 2:10-11. Sunday worship is not biblical and simply a man made tradition and teaching that breaks the commandments of God. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th Commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. JESUS says in his own words that anyone that knowingly follows man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God. Something to pray and think about in my opinion. I believe God has his people in every Church *JOHN 10:16 living up to all the knowledge God has given them *ACTS 17:30-31. According to the scriptures the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth because God is a Spirit and those who whorship him must whorship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 18:1-5. God's Sheep will hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.

So basically, in a nutshell, it is the Christians fear breaking one of the Big Ten and ending up in hell...?

Interesting that the fear it so much they will argue endlessly on what seems a pretty petty matter.

 

[Rival]

So basically, in a nutshell, it is the Christians fear breaking one of the Big Ten and ending up in hell...?

Interesting that the fear it so much they will argue endlessly on what seems a pretty petty matter.

And then accuse Jews of being legalists

 

[3rdAngel]

So basically, in a nutshell, it is the Christians fear breaking one of the Big Ten and ending up in hell...? Interesting that the fear it so much they will argue endlessly on what seems a pretty petty matter.

Nothing personal but to me this post only shows a lack of understanding of the scriptures and Gods plan of salvation for those who believe and follow God's Word. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom which reveals God's love for all mankind.

 

[McBell]

Nothing personal but to me this post only shown a lack of understanding of the scriptures and Gods plan of salvation for those who believe and follow God's Word. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom which reveals God's love for all mankind.

[sarcasm]
If only god could see it in the goodness of his heart to allow me to understand his word as only his chosen are allowed.
[/sarcasm]

 

[2ndpillar]

[sarcasm]
If only god could see it in the goodness of his heart to allow me to understand his word as only his chosen are allowed.
[/sarcasm]

Well, understanding is not given to the "wicked" (Daniel 12:10). One might need to repent, produce good fruit, and be baptized in the Spirit to avoid the path of confusion and destruction (Matthew 3).

 

[McBell]

Well, understanding is not given to the "wicked" (Daniel 12:10). One might need to repent, produce good fruit, and be baptized in the Spirit to avoid the path of confusion and destruction (Matthew 3).

Yes, 3rdAngel has gone on in great length (in another thread or three) how only God can grant to his chosen who may and who may not truly understand Gods hidden messages and meanings in the Bible.

Which is rather comical when you think about it.
Here 3rdAngel is trying to explain something to people who God Himself has declared will not understand.
It is almost as though 3rdAngel thinks he can overpower God.

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes, 3rdAngel has gone on in great length (in another thread or three) how only God can grant to his chosen who may and who may not truly understand Gods hidden messages and meanings in the Bible.

Which is rather comical when you think about it.
Here 3rdAngel is trying to explain something to people who God Himself has declared will not understand.
It is almost as though 3rdAngel thinks he can overpower God.

If the "elect" might well be deceived (Matthew 24:24), possibly "3rdAngel" can be deceived as well. Being deceived doesn't mean he has no hope. "God Himself" declared, that to get back in his good grace, one simply has to acknowledge their guilt and repent. (Hosea 5:15). Being deceived and lost does not mean that one is aware of being lost. As for the house of Israel, they will be brought back into the fold despite themselves (Ezekiel 36:22)