The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[nPeace]

What are you asking?

A vapoured question?

And how do you know that they didn’t ask the Father?

Jesus always ‘prayed the Father’ before performing any miracle since it is the fathers Holy Spirit that is used to do the miracle. In carrying out miracles in the name of Jesus, the same request for the Holy Spirit would have to be made by the disciples.

Jesus taught them how to carry out the works of the Father - and that would include praying the Father AS HE DID:

• “Father, I know that you always hear me when I pray - but I speak out loud now so that the people standing here will know that it is you that is carrying out the works!’ (Paraphrased)

The previous verse (John 11:41) reads:

• “So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.”

which validates praying the Father.

Again, doing things in the name of Jesus means doing the same as Jesus would have done.

Why you asked the question shows you have not much understanding as it was clear that the disciples had to have prayed the Father in the same manner as their teacher!

John 16:23-24 is interesting.
23 In that day you will ask me no question at all. Most truly I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for a single thing in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

Also, John 14:13-14
13 Also, whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, so that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Not having much understanding? I think Jesus words are more powerful. John 9:39-41
Interestingly, this, after they threw a blind man out, after the man tried reasoning with them.

Jesus understands why Trinitarians don't budge, in an avalanche of scriptures against their doctrine.

 

[paarsurrey]

nPeace said: ↑
An interesting Bible study?

Yes, it normally follows an article in the magazine, and microphone is passed around for participation of the congregation.

And if one asks a question about Bible verse under study, they answer it as per their magazine and they don't encourage other answers to be given, isn't it a study of Watchtower magazine "in the name of the Bible", please? Right?
Hasn't it got a similarity as they believe and act many things "in the name of Jesus" and these things were never originated by (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Regards

 

[Wildswanderer]

I know you desperately want to claim otherwise but This then, must be put down to an error on the part of Stephen or the trinitarian translators - since Stephen, in vision, saw Heaven open and saw “GOD” SEATED on His throne AND Jesus STANDING next to Him.

Lol, so he prays directly to Jesus so it must be an error because you said so! Hilarious the length you will go to to deny the obvious.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh dear…. Wow! This is amazing!!

I don’t know a good way to answer this preposterous nonesense!

Oh, ok. In Petitioning GOD (a judge) you need to appeal to his POWER AND AUTHORITY.

I take it you never seen a court in session… understand it this way, then:
“Your great majesty, May your name always be mighty. All things are yours - for you created them. I admit I am a sinner but I do try to do the right thing - failing often. I forgive my fellows many times for their sins against me - and I’m asking you to forgive my sins against you. Lord God, you know our needs,.. sufficient for the day is what I ask for us … Lord God, Mighty God, Lord of all, Thank you for listening!’

There! ‘Hallowed by thy name’ is all part of the great petition to any great authority: appeal to their mightiness.

Seriously, you think God doesn't want you to praise him?
Praise the Lord.

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.
Psalm 150

 

[Wildswanderer]

I know what the scripture says.

Yes, it tells us to pray to Jesus.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Kenny, don’t be desperate! It’s not a good look if you think class yourself as a truth speaker!!!

The verse explicitly says to ask Jesus for something only God can give. But go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The author names himself as "John", but modern scholars consider it unlikely that the author of Revelation also wrote the Gospel of John. He was a Jewish Christian prophet, probably belonging to a group of such prophets, and was accepted by the congregations to whom he addresses his letter.
- wiki -

I believe he is known as John of Patmos.
He was a Nazarene, and is reported to have had a vision.
The source is not quoted from Jesus.

Revelation was written by the apostle John.

 

[nPeace]

nPeace said: ↑
An interesting Bible study?

And if one asks a question about Bible verse under study, they answer it as per their magazine and they don't encourage other answers to be given, isn't it a study of Watchtower magazine "in the name of the Bible", please? Right?

There are Bible verses in the Watchtower, which are used.

Obviously, if one has a different view of those scriptures, our agreeing with them is not the mandatory option.

So, during the meeting is not the place to argue about which understanding is correct.
The person is most welcomed to stay after meeting and discuss his views.
If he doesn't agree, he is certainly free and welcomed to visit again, or not.
Either way, is fine.

Hasn't it got a similarity as they believe and act many things "in the name of Jesus" and these things were never originated by (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Regards

Why do you say "these things were never originated by (Jesus)"?

When Jesus was about to leave the earth, he said...
Matthew 24:14
And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:45-47
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Are you saying you know whom Jesus has appointed to feed his sheep, and continue his work, which he started on earth?

Would you mind sharing that information with me, because right now, the only people I see well organized in carrying out the preaching of the Good News of God's Kingdom, in all the earth, with the same zeal, and methods of the master, Jesus, are Jehovah's Witnesses, and the reason for their unity worldwide, is due to being fed the same food from one slave - a very faithful one too, since their primary focus is doing what Jesus commanded them - preach and teach the kingdom message, and make disciples of people of all the nations.

This is why you can travel to any country in the world - even Russia, and the Bible Study for that week will use the same Watchtower article as an aid.
The midweek meeting is the same, worldwide.
Preaching campaign are the same, worldwide.
Special offers are the same, worldwide.
Conventions, Assemblies, the Memorial of Christ's death... are all the same, worldwide.
Their message is the same, worldwide, and they are a united brotherhood - united in love (John 13:34-35).
That fits Matthew 24:45, to me.

So if you know whom other than these clearly demonstrate that Jesus has appointed among them, a slave to look after his interests here on earth, I'm interested in hearing of them.
Thanks.

 

[InChrist]

No one is called to PRAY TO JESUS. I would defy you to find a verse in the Christian scriptures that states praying to Jesus

Stephen prayed to Jesus...

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “LordJesus, receive my spirit.”
Acts 7:58

 

[muhammad_isa]

And if one asks a question about Bible verse under study, they answer it as per their magazine and they don't encourage other answers to be given..

Of course..
I find that at most places I go, including Mosques.
satan is everywhere.

..but I don't let that discourage me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, it tells us to pray to Jesus.

No, it really doesn't !
Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father" i.e. God

 

[muhammad_isa]

Revelation was written by the apostle John.

You can believe what you like.
You are not following truth when you do that, but "tradition".

You are the one putting "fingers in your ears".
Belonging to a "religious tribe" has its benefits when it comes to faith, but it is also a test.
Being in a "majority", is particularly testing, because it is so easy to assume something is true, without doing your own "homework".

 

[Kenny]

What are you asking?

A vapoured question?

And how do you know that they didn’t ask the Father?

Jesus always ‘prayed the Father’ before performing any miracle since it is the fathers Holy Spirit that is used to do the miracle. In carrying out miracles in the name of Jesus, the same request for the Holy Spirit would have to be made by the disciples.

Jesus taught them how to carry out the works of the Father - and that would include praying the Father AS HE DID:

• “Father, I know that you always hear me when I pray - but I speak out loud now so that the people standing here will know that it is you that is carrying out the works!’ (Paraphrased)

The previous verse (John 11:41) reads:

• “So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.”

which validates praying the Father.

Again, doing things in the name of Jesus means doing the same as Jesus would have done.

Why you asked the question shows you have not much understanding as it was clear that the disciples had to have prayed the Father in the same manner as their teacher!

I never said that praying to the Father is wrong. It is a right thing to do...

But there is more to being "in Christ" than just that...

Acts 3:6 But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!”

No praying to the Father in this one but simply "in the name"

Acts 16:18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.

No Father in this one either just in the name.

Not saying we shouldn't pray to the Father.

 

[Soapy]

If you begin with the premise that God cannot dwell on earth as a man, then you will forever be perplexed by verses that clearly demonstrate that the Father's Spirit was in the Son, Jesus.

John 2:19. 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days l will raise it up'.

The problem with your theology is that it only takes account of a selection of scripture. Since your theology fails to take account of all the scriptures, it is bound to be deficient.

Colossians 1:19. 'For it pleased the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell;'

Colossians 2:9. 'For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily'.

How can the fulness of the Father's Spirit dwell on earth without it being worthy of worship?

Oh dear, you are all over the place.

The spirit of God was not ‘Dwelling on earth’. It was in the heart and minds of those who are believers, strengthening them, encouraging them, reminding them, providing for them.

The spirit of God influences the spirit of individuals and it us up to the individual to accept the influence - just as the spirit of Satan csn influence the spirit of an individual and likewise if is down to them whether to accept the influence and do bad deeds, or ‘put it behind them!’:

• “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” (Matt 4:9)
• “Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”” (Matt 4:10)

God is not the spirit of God….
The spirit of God is not God…

The spirit is OF GOD!

As you read what I wrote YOUR SPIRIT is influenced one way or another. But my spirit is not THERE where you are. But if you accept my SPIRIT INFLUENCE then you would become more powerfilled in the ways of truth… if not, you remain in ignorance.

However, my spirit detects that you are only playing the farce with your thoughts. You are simply playing ‘Devils advocate’… not a good thing if you end up believing your own diatribe!

 

[Soapy]

Stephen prayed to Jesus...

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “LordJesus, receive my spirit.”
Acts 7:58

• “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”” (Acts 7:56)

Where in Acts 7:58 do you read that Stephen was praying to GOD?’

Verse 56 states that the person WITH GOD… STANDING next to the SEATED GOD was the ‘Son of Man’ (a Human person).

This certainly courses a problem of understanding, interpretation, and truth of the scripture verse translation:

1. God is SEATED - this is a position of POWER AND AUTHORITY
2. JESUS is STANDING [next to] - this is a position of being in support
3. JESUS is described as being a Human person (Son of man)
4. Stephen is shown to address Jesus in his prayer
5. GOD is the creator and receiver of the spirits He created …
6. Jesus echoes these words to GOD : ‘Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit!’
7. The only way of reaching GOD is THROUGH JESUS…: ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me!’

So, why is it written that Stephen commended his spirit to JESUS rather than to GOD?

Could the scripture translators have ACCIDENTALLY (??!!!???!) exchanged ‘God’ for ‘Jesus’ in verse 58?

Could verse 58 have just read ‘Lord, receive my spirit’ (‘Lord, here, meaning ‘GOD’) and the translator ADDED the name ‘Jesus’??

Surely if there is a JUDGE and a SOLICITOR in place, an accused person does not appeal (pray) to the SOLICITOR??? They would pray to the JUDGE through the SOLICITOR… or, out of protocol, appeal DIRECTLY TO THE JUDGE?

Maybe it is that the name ‘Jesus’ was not in the original Greek text but added by trinitarian translators who were made to try to turn any available verse into a trinitarian based verse (of which there are many examples which prove to be failures when put under test!)

Nonetheless, for the trinitarian: Does God, and the man, Jesus, constitute a TRINITY?

 

[Soapy]

I never said that praying to the Father is wrong. It is a right thing to do...

But there is more to being "in Christ" than just that...

Acts 3:6 But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!”

No praying to the Father in this one but simply "in the name"

Acts 16:18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.

No Father in this one either just in the name.

Not saying we shouldn't pray to the Father.

How long are you to be in ignorance. You are commended for appear to desire knowing the truth but you blind yourself with farce!!!

‘IN THE NAME OF’ … ‘in the name of Jesus Christ’…

IT MEANS, by the power IN THE NAME. The NAME is JESUS… and JESUS REPRESENTS:

• Integrity
• Honesty
• Truthfulness
• Righteousness
• Sinlessness
• Unselfishness
• Reverence [to the Father / To God]
  
• Humbleness
• Sincerity
• ….

When a prayer is made in such a manner to God then it is likely that the REQUEST REQUESTED in the prayer will be GRANTED [if it should be the desire of the father]. A prayer not meeting with the ‘Name of Jesus’ will immediately not be granted BY GOD. Selfish requests, personal gain, unworthy of sinful requests, ignorance of an outcome, revenge, tempting God…. UNTRUTHFULNESS, insincerity, irreverence…. Casual, immoral, lazy… rote!!

The disciples prayed the Father through IN MANNER OF THE bulleted list which represents JESUS CHRIST. In doing so they were granted the request asked in the prayer: To cast out the demon; to heal the person, to make the person walk or see…

Be it known also that the person (or someone acting on the person in question*) has to ACCEPT and AGREE for the action to take place. No one is healed, made to see, raised from a ‘Coma’, … unless they first agree (see extenuating circumstance shown earlier*) BY FAITH. Check out ALL the miracles that Jesus performed (Do not count the first ‘miracle’ of turning water into wine… it is more likely that this was more an illusion of taste and is exactly the sort of thing that someone with ‘magic powers’ would be tempted to perform!!! Notice that Jesus did not turn stones into bread, nor fetch water for himself when he was thirsty at Jacobs Well with the Samaritan woman, for instances!!)

 

[Redemptionsong]

Oh dear, you are all over the place.

The spirit of God was not ‘Dwelling on earth’. It was in the heart and minds of those who are believers, strengthening them, encouraging them, reminding them, providing for them.

The spirit of God influences the spirit of individuals and it us up to the individual to accept the influence - just as the spirit of Satan csn influence the spirit of an individual and likewise if is down to them whether to accept the influence and do bad deeds, or ‘put it behind them!’:

• “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” (Matt 4:9)
• “Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”” (Matt 4:10)

God is not the spirit of God….
The spirit of God is not God…

The spirit is OF GOD!

As you read what I wrote YOUR SPIRIT is influenced one way or another. But my spirit is not THERE where you are. But if you accept my SPIRIT INFLUENCE then you would become more powerfilled in the ways of truth… if not, you remain in ignorance.

However, my spirit detects that you are only playing the farce with your thoughts. You are simply playing ‘Devils advocate’… not a good thing if you end up believing your own diatribe!

My position is consistent and entirely orthodox.

The Christian belief in the deity of Christ goes back to the apostles and can be justified in scripture.

'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, and denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.' [1 John 2:22,23]

Eternal life is to be found in the Son, which the Father promised. It is, therefore, quite legitimate to say of the risen Jesus, as Thomas said, 'My Lord and my God'.

 

[Soapy]

My position is consistent and entirely orthodox.

The Christian belief in the deity of Christ goes back to the apostles and can be justified in scripture.

'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, and denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.' [1 John 2:22,23]

Eternal life is to be found in the Son, which the Father promised. It is, therefore, quite legitimate to say of the risen Jesus, as Thomas said, 'My Lord and my God'.

I have no idea what you are saying. You swing from north to south, east and west, front to back, and in and out… What is your point except to claim invalid doctrine?

Jesus is a man man born sinless, holy and righteous who remained so until called by God at the age of 30. He was then set aside by God at a baptism ceremony which turned into an anointing with the spirit of God. God says so, Jesus said do himself. The scriptures says so, I Say so.

Stephen saw in vision heaven open and saw:

1. GOD seated on the throne
2. Jesus - a human person STANDING next to God who is on the throne
3. There is no third ‘person’
4. A trinity is THREE
5. Your trinity is three inseparable persons so where is the third?
6. God is ONE yet you say God is three - which one of you (two … or three?) is telling the truth?
7. Jesus DIED… God cannot die ….!
8. God GRANTED Jesus to have power. EVEN IF you say that Jesus having power of God makes him EQUAL TO GOD that still does not MAKE HIM GOD… being equal to does not mean IS. Moreover:
9. What was Jesus BEFORE GOD GRANTED HIM POWER?
10. Why is Jesus STANDING next to the SEATED GOD if he is GOD?
11. Why does Jesus HAND BACK POWER AND AUTHORITY TO GOD if he, Jesus, IS GOD
12. WHY is Jesus GRANTED kingship / Rulership over CREATION if Jesus CREATED IT and already OWNS IT (according to trinity?) and:
13. Who was its OWNER BEFORE Jesus was granted it?

Please answer ALL these questions and see if your answers tally to your one single theme: BECAUSE HE WAS GOD… if you can!!

 

[nPeace]

Stephen prayed to Jesus...

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “LordJesus, receive my spirit.”
Acts 7:58

Why pick out one verse to dismiss 1,000,000... actually the entire Bible.

I hope that's not how you have been taught.
If you read the whole Bible, and it says X, will you find one verse that says Y?
Is that not the skeptics' problem?
Does the Christian not think differently?

No. Stephen did not pray to Jesus. he spoke to him... like Saul did.
Both saw Jesus, and knew he was a real person. They didn't think he was God, as they both admitted.
You aren't about to tell me that Paul prayed to Jesus, are you?
It would cause me to look at you differently... like questioning your sincerity. I'll like to think you are sincere though... even if sincerely wrong.

The trinity doctrine is false. It has no scriptural support.
It seems more benficial to let it go... In fact, it is most beneficial. We wouldn't want to be fooling ourselves into thinking that we will get life if we believe it. Would we?

Any other scripture you would like to share to show that the Bible encourages praying to Jesus?
That one doesn't.
In fact, all the disciples spoke to Jesus... at least the ones who saw him. Do you think they were praying to him?

 

[nPeace]

Oh dear, you are all over the place.

The spirit of God was not ‘Dwelling on earth’. It was in the heart and minds of those who are believers, strengthening them, encouraging them, reminding them, providing for them.

The spirit of God influences the spirit of individuals and it us up to the individual to accept the influence - just as the spirit of Satan csn influence the spirit of an individual and likewise if is down to them whether to accept the influence and do bad deeds, or ‘put it behind them!’:

• “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” (Matt 4:9)
• “Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”” (Matt 4:10)

God is not the spirit of God….
The spirit of God is not God…

The spirit is OF GOD!

Nice. I am interested in what we disagree on. I'll PM you some time about it.