The lost tribes of Israel

[dogsgod]

The N/T says that 'All Israel shall be saved'. Perhaps there is still hope. Also, if you note, the Word of God ALWAYS came by way of anointed chosen people within the anointed tribes of Israel. Why would God have changed His ways, especially after His promise to Abraham? I believe that there are still descendants of the lost tribes, on this earth today. It is also written in the N/T, that the Israelites will have great joy (even more than the passover), when they come from all over the world, in order to return to the promised land, before the final battle(s). Is God just referring to the 'known' Jews?

Of course there are some descendants of a so called lost tribe today, but they live as Hindus, Christians, atheists, Muslims, and so on. People are people regardless, and if you go back far enough, we all came out of Africa.

 

[Levite]

Levite, it is my understanding that certain numbers in the Jewish tradition are special, they come with meanings of their own. For example, the number twelve was relevant to Jews and taken into consideration when the first gospel writer recorded there being twelve disciples of Christ, this may well have been understood by the reader at the time to mean that these twelve symbolized the coming together of the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps the ancient Jews recognized the mysteriousness, and the allusions to ancient scripture within this story, perhaps in some ways a rewrite of Moses, but was lost on the gentiles that came to accept these scriptures as writings of actual events. I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.

Yeah, it's possible. Most cultures in the Ancient Near East had numbers that were mystically significant to them in some way, positive or negative. And sometimes, like in the philosophers' cults of Greece, they were deeply religious-- the Pythagoreans almost imploded over the theological crisis caused by the square root of two being insoluble. But even in less math-oriented societies, numerology was big mojo.

For Jews, sure, twelve was a big one; so were four, seven, ten, forty, and seventy, although at least some cases could be made for nearly all the numbers one through ten.

But Christianity brought in a whole host of different ones: three, thirteen, thirty-three, 666, and so on and so forth. None of those had any particular significance for Jews, except maybe for three, and that was for very different reasons.

In any case, though, even long after the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were lost, Jews continued to speak of the twelve tribes, and to consider twelve a number associated with the completion or wholeness of the people. And I think you're right that this was very much for mystical reasons.

 

[dogsgod]

Levite, thank you for your comments, I appreciate them. There seems to be much more going on within these stories than the stories themselves. I view these books as literary works of art and not to be taken too literally if at all.

 

[Flankerl]

The N/T says that 'All Israel shall be saved'. Perhaps there is still hope. Also, if you note, the Word of God ALWAYS came by way of anointed chosen people within the anointed tribes of Israel. Why would God have changed His ways, especially after His promise to Abraham? I believe that there are still descendants of the lost tribes, on this earth today. It is also written in the N/T, that the Israelites will have great joy (even more than the passover), when they come from all over the world, in order to return to the promised land, before the final battle(s). Is God just referring to the 'known' Jews?

Well as it is written in the NT it bears no significance to me so i dont really care about it.

 

[smokydot]

The ten "lost tribes" of the northern kingdom were not lost in the exile, for they are "found" in the rest of the Bible.

1) in prophecies relating to the return from exile:

---Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where "Israel" is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
---Eze 37:15-22 (where "Ephraim" is the norther kingdom of ten tribes--Isa 7:17)
The ten northern tribes were referred to by two names, Israel and Ephraim (as in Isa 7:17).

2) in the return from exile: Ezra 6:17

3) in the NT: Ac 26:7, Jas 1:1

They are not now on the throne of England, because they were never "lost."

 

[Levite]

The ten "lost tribes" of the northern kingdom were not lost in the exile, for they are "found" in the rest of the Bible.

1) in prophecies relating to the return from exile:

---Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where "Israel" is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
---Eze 37:15-22 (where "Ephraim" is the norther kingdom of ten tribes--Isa 7:17)
The ten northern tribes were referred to by two names, Israel and Ephraim (as in Isa 7:17).

2) in the return from exile: Ezra 6:17

3) in the NT: Ac 26:7, Jas 1:1

They are not now on the throne of England, because they were never "lost."

Did you just copy and paste your entire previous post (#8)??!

 

[smokydot]

Did you just copy and paste your entire previous post (#8)??!

No copy and paste. . .

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

Of course there are some descendants of a so called lost tribe today, but they live as Hindus, Christians, atheists, Muslims, and so on. People are people regardless, and if you go back far enough, we all came out of Africa.

As a Christian, I believe in the O/T and N/T as written in the Holy Bible. This means, that I believe in Christ as my saviour. Because of this, in order for the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel to be saved, they would have to become Christians.

 

[arimoff]

I have discussed this topic with several ministers (Protestant & R.C.), a rabbi, and other Christians on different religious forums. No one seems to know what happened to the Israelite tribes that were taken captive by the Assyrians around 800 B.C.

I read the overview of the book published by E. Raymond Capt (Australian biblical archeologist), in which, he states that he re-interpreted the Assyrian tablets, and traced the lost tribes to the throne of England (as well as other places). Is this possible?

I think the 10 tribes are lost but in a sense that we don't know who is from what tribe but the entire current Jewish population includes people from different tribes. One example is where I'm from Mountain Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Our tradition holds that we were exiled there after the first Temple and we never returned for second, big prove of that is that our synagogues until last century never had Talmud witch was written after the second Temple but we did know we are Jews and my grandfather use to tell me that Rabbis before they were murdered by Nazis and communists always used to say that we are one of the lost tribes, we married only Jews we had tefellin and circumcision and we speak farsi witch they spoke in ancient Persia. So it is really hard to tell what and where those tribes are but it has nothing to do with Christianity, all of that is nonsense. What son of a G-D could have my ancestors been waiting for when they were exiled before even Jesus great grand parents weren't even born. It is always good to explore what interests you but it all has to make logical sense and strictly with in Jewish concepts.

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

Well as it is written in the NT it bears no significance to me so i dont really care about it.

So you will search for The Messiah (for His first coming) until He returns (His second coming).

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

I think the 10 tribes are lost but in a sense that we don't know who is from what tribe but the entire current Jewish population includes people from different tribes. One example is where I'm from Mountain Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Our tradition holds that we were exiled there after the first Temple and we never returned for second, big prove of that is that our synagogues until last century never had Talmud witch was written after the second Temple but we did know we are Jews and my grandfather use to tell me that Rabbis before they were murdered by Nazis and communists always used to say that we are one of the lost tribes, we married only Jews we had tefellin and circumcision and we speak farsi witch they spoke in ancient Persia. So it is really hard to tell what and where those tribes are but it has nothing to do with Christianity, all of that is nonsense. What son of a G-D could have my ancestors been waiting for when they were exiled before even Jesus great grand parents weren't even born. It is always good to explore what interests you but it all has to make logical sense and strictly with in Jewish concepts.

Jesus Christ IS within Jewish concepts. All original teachings in the N/T are through 'JEWS' (including Jesus Christ, Himself). Why would these Jews lie? Thousands of people (including Jews) witnessed the miracles and teachings of Jesus Christ. Thousands were fed from baskets that remained full.

The scriptures tell us, that the Israelites/Jews were 'hard-headed'. Perhaps God had separated some of these Israelites from each other, so that they could be turned to Christianity, while believing that they were in fact 'gentiles'. By waiting out approximately 800 years, all 'connections' to the lost tribes descendancy, could have easily been forgotten.

We know that God commanded that the Israelites celebrate the 'passover'. By having Jesus Christ crucified during the passover, when Christians celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ, they are also celebrating the passover (in God's view???).

 

[smokydot]

Jesus Christ IS within Jewish concepts. All original teachings in the N/T are through 'JEWS' (including Jesus Christ, Himself). Why would these Jews lie? Thousands of people (including Jews) witnessed the miracles and teachings of Jesus Christ. Thousands were fed from baskets that remained full.
The scriptures tell us, that the Israelites/Jews were 'hard-headed'. Perhaps God had separated some of these Israelites from each other, so that they could be turned to Christianity, while believing that they were in fact 'gentiles'. By waiting out approximately 800 years, all 'connections' to the lost tribes descendancy, could have easily been forgotten.
We know that God commanded that the Israelites celebrate the 'passover'. By having Jesus Christ crucified during the passover, when Christians celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ, they are also celebrating the passover (in God's view???).

In the Lord's Supper instituted by Jesus from the Passover meal, Christians are celebrating their deliverance from eternal death by the blood of the sacrificial Lamb of God
shed on Calvary, in propitiation of God's just wrath on the sin of those who believe in his only begotten Son,
just as the Jews were delivered from the angel of death by the blood of the sacrificial lamb on their doorposts that Passover night.

 

[Flankerl]

So you will search for The Messiah (for His first coming) until He returns (His second coming).

We will search for the moshiach until he/she arrives for the first time.

Lets just agree that we disagree.

 

[Ben Masada]

I have discussed this topic with several ministers (Protestant & R.C.), a rabbi, and other Christians on different religious forums. No one seems to know what happened to the Israelite tribes that were taken captive by the Assyrians around 800 B.C.

I read the overview of the book published by E. Raymond Capt (Australian biblical archeologist), in which, he states that he re-interpreted the Assyrian tablets, and traced the lost tribes to the throne of England (as well as other places). Is this possible?

No, it is not. As the name says, those Tribes indeed got lost when the Assyrians, in fulfilment of God's Word in Psalm 78:67-69 removed the Ten Tribes from the North
of Israel and exchanged the population for Gentiles. However, there was a moratorium of about 100 years until Judah was taken for a temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon. The transfer of pupulation from Israel to Assyria with replacement by Gentiles did not take a day or two but years.

During the moratorium, which lasted about 100 years, anyone from the Ten Tribes who wished to join Judah in the South without the necessity of conversion was free. Therefore, two thirds of the Levites and a few thousands from other tribes did join Judah in the South plus a sizeable group of Gentiles who converted to Judaism. After those 70 years the moratorium had been over. Since then, to this very day, any one claiming afilliation to any of the Ten Tribes must undergo conversion just like any one from among the Gentiles. However, who can be saved from political trammels? Some groups have gain their entrance in Israel as Jews but at the time to get a halarchic marriage, they know how much it costs not to have taken care of that item before.
Ben

 

[Zadok]

I have to say you two i always liked the hope that one day perhaps not in my lifetime all tribes will "return". Perhaps people would somehow get the knowledge that their ancestors were from one of the tribes and they would endorse it... or so.


But you two really took my good mood away.

The house of Israel was scattered among the Gentiles or gentile nations. The understanding the gentiles comes from the covenant of G-d with Japheth the second son of Noah. The ancient scriptures give types and shadows of Israel being mixed with the gentiles in the epoch of Joseph in Egypt where Joseph marries an Egyptian gentile and gives his son gentile names.

The epoch of Moses becomes not just a return of the tribes if Israel to their promised land but a type and shadow of prophesy indicating the return of Ephraim the heir of Joseph. Note in the blessing of Joseph in Genesis 49:22-27 that Joseph will fruitful bough whose branches run over the wall to a place called the utmost bound of the everlasting hills.

According to prophesy (Ezekiel 37) Judah and Ephraim will be gathered from among the gentiles and will be reunited. Most can agree as to Judah being gathered but few seem to understand the role of the remnant of Ephraim.

Zadok

 

[Ben Masada]

The ten "lost tribes" of the northern kingdom were not lost in the exile, for they are "found" in the rest of the Bible.

1) in prophecies relating to the return from exile:

---Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where "Israel" is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
---Eze 37:15-22 (where "Ephraim" is the norther kingdom of ten tribes--Isa 7:17)
The ten northern tribes were referred to by two names, Israel and Ephraim (as in Isa 7:17).

2) in the return from exile: Ezra 6:17

3) in the NT: Ac 26:7, Jas 1:1

They are not now on the throne of England, because they were never "lost."

Well, if you are right, we are supposed to change their name to the Ten Found Tribes of Israel. No longer the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.

Jeremiah in 3:18; 31:27,31 speaks of those few thousands who joined Judah in the South and will be together as one kingdom in the whole of Israel at the end of Judah's exile in Babylon, when a New Covenant would be established with both Houses as one single People. No more Tribal system. Ezra 6 is an evidence of the union.

What you read in Acts 26:6,7 is about the Pauline hatred of the Jews by trying to play with king Agrippa's mind with his - Paul's - policy of Replacement Theology. He even mentions that God will raise the dead ones to replace the Jews. (Acts 26:8)
Ben

 

[smokydot]

Well, if you are right, we are supposed to change their name to the Ten Found Tribes of Israel. No longer the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.

Agreed, since it's not a Biblical name anyway.

Jeremiah in 3:18; 31:27,31 speaks of those few thousands who joined Judah in the South and will be together as one kingdom in the whole of Israel at the end of Judah's exile in Babylon, when a New Covenant would be established with both Houses as one single People. No more Tribal system. Ezra 6 is an evidence of the union.
What you read in Acts 26:6,7 is about the Pauline hatred of the Jews by trying to play with king Agrippa's mind with his - Paul's - policy of Replacement Theology. He even mentions that God will raise the dead ones to replace the Jews. (Acts 26:8)
Ben

Not convinced you know what was in Paul's mind.

Paul says his gospel and teaching were given to him by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Likewise, the Apostles approved his gospel.
You either believe the NT or you don't.
Evidently, you don't.
It's a matter of faith, not of proof.
You can't prove it is either true or not true.

 

[Ben Masada]

Agreed, since it's not a Biblical name anyway.
Not convinced you know what was in Paul's mind.

Paul says his gospel and teaching were given to him by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Likewise, the Apostles approved his gospel.
You either believe the NT or you don't.
Evidently, you don't.
It's a matter of faith, not of proof.
You can't prove it is either true or not true.

Oh! Do you really want me to tell you what was in Paul's mind? It won't take a genius to know. First of all, Paul was never good enough or able to raise a church from scretch. He would behave like the cuckoo bird by invading the synagogues of the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus, and overturning their synagogues into Christian churches with promises that Judaism could not make. People would go for it and bingo! One more Christian church was up. Then, from the Nazarene headquarters in Jerusalem, James and the Elders would send some of theirs to try to salvage their synagogues and, one of them was the one of Galatia. Paul would call them Judaiazers.

Paul was terribly disappointed that the Galatians were so soon leaving him and returning to the "other gospel" as he used to call the gospel of the Nazarenes. Disciples of Jesus, mind you. (Gal. 1:6-9) Then, he would curse any one, even an angel from heaven who would preach any other gospel different from his. (Gal. 1:8) Then, he wrote his famous Replacement Theology speech in Galatians 4:21-31 because many of the members were returning to the Law. (Acts 21:20)

What was so important about Paul's gospel that even if an angel brought a different one from heaven should be cursed? Only he knew. What he left for us to know was only that this gospel of his was peculiarly his, because, as he declared himself, he didn't get it from the Apostles of Jesus. (Gal. 1:17) A famous difference, he leaked out when he wrote his letter to Timothy, and said that Jesus was from the lineage of David and had resurrected according to his gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) In other words, that Jesus was Christ the Messiah and that he had resurrected was not in the agenda of the Apostles. Where Paul had fabricated that one from, again, only he knew.
Ben

 

[smokydot]

Oh! Do you really want me to tell you what was in Paul's mind? It won't take a genius to know. First of all, Paul was never good enough or able to raise a church from scretch. He would behave like the cuckoo bird by invading the synagogues of the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus, and overturning their synagogues into Christian churches with promises that Judaism could not make. People would go for it and bingo! One more Christian church was up. Then, from the Nazarene headquarters in Jerusalem, James and the Elders would send some of theirs to try to salvage their synagogues and, one of them was the one of Galatia. Paul would call them Judaiazers.
Paul was terribly disappointed that the Galatians were so soon leaving him and returning to the "other gospel" as he used to call the gospel of the Nazarenes. Disciples of Jesus, mind you. (Gal. 1:6-9) Then, he would curse any one, even an angel from heaven who would preach any other gospel different from his. (Gal. 1:8) Then, he wrote his famous Replacement Theology speech in Galatians 4:21-31 because many of the members were returning to the Law. (Acts 21:20)
What was so important about Paul's gospel that even if an angel brought a different one from heaven should be cursed? Only he knew. What he left for us to know was only that this gospel of his was peculiarly his, because, as he declared himself, he didn't get it from the Apostles of Jesus. (Gal. 1:17) A famous difference, he leaked out when he wrote his letter to Timothy, and said that Jesus was from the lineage of David and had resurrected according to his gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) In other words, that Jesus was Christ the Messiah and that he had resurrected was not in the agenda of the Apostles. Where Paul had fabricated that one from, again, only he knew.
Ben

You left out that part about Paul receiving his doctrine by revelation from Jesus the Christ. . .and the part about the Apostles approving what he preached.

That's as good as the lineage gets. . .to which your uninformed comments don't even come close.

 

[Ben Masada]

You left out that part about Paul receiving his doctrine by revelation from Jesus the Christ. . .and the part about the Apostles approving what he preached.

That's as good as the lineage gets. . .to which your uninformed comments don't even come close.

And you left out that he was preaching among the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and stop walking after the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21)
Before you refute that one, take a look at Genesis 17:13 that God's Covenant with Abraham and his seed was to be for an "everlasting Covenant." And the everlasting token of this Covenant was the circumcision. (Gen. 17:11) It means that Paul has broken the evelasting Word of God.

The Apostles of Jesus could not have approved such a teaching. They simulated some kind of dubious approval but to get rid of Paul, afraid that he would cause another havoc like the one he caused the first time he visited Jerusalem, when James had to get him down to Caesarea and back to Tarsus where he belonged. Then, through Judas and Silas, James sent a letter to the disciples who wanted to follow Paul, that they should observe at least the Noahide laws. (Acts 15:27-29) It means that the Gentiles who had become Jewish by converting themselves through the Nazarenes were reverted to their prior condition of Gentiles. One way to lose one's Jewishness.

Please, next time quote your references.
Ben