The love of Jesus Christ

[InChrist]

The obvious objection to this is that young children have not committed any sin, even within the Christian paradigm, for which they should be suffering.

In terms of "corresponding to reality," there is no empirical correlation between being a "sinful" person according to Christian teaching, and suffering vs. Not suffering in this life. At least, no correlation with the "sins" unique to Christianity, like unbelief, heresy, all sex outside monogamous straight marriage, etc.

I am not saying that little children who have cancer have it because of some specific sin in their life. for which they are suffering. I am referring to the impact of sin in general and the suffering it has let loose in this world which impacts everyone in one way or another, young and old, including even the natural world according to the scriptures This impact is the reality I am talking about.

 

[InChrist]

And do you believe that other religions make these same claims just as vociferously as you do?

Yes. I realize that, so all the more important reason for each person to continually seek truth and wisdom from the Creator.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Yes. I realize that, so all the more important reason for each person to continually seek truth and wisdom from the Creator.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. How do we seek Truth, and what is Truth? If I'd been raised by wolves (monkeys, whatever), and then discovered and brought into society, would you try to convince me that Christianity was the True religion/philosophy? How? Why should I believe you and your prophets, over others and their prophets, or the materialists, atheists or deists? Should I be an agnostic or should I be certain? It appears that uncertainty and doubt are not acceptable if the religion is the true & certain revealed Word of God; and that blind faith is the curtain behind which the priests and scriptures hide.

The only faith that isn't blind is the faith guided by reason.

 

[JustCallMeNick]

I am not saying that little children who have cancer have it because of some specific sin in their life. for which they are suffering. I am referring to the impact of sin in general and the suffering it has let loose in this world which impacts everyone in one way or another, young and old, including even the natural world according to the scriptures This impact is the reality I am talking about.

But that's entirely the problem. Granting for a minute that the Christian God exists, he's the one who created that "impact." He built this machine. He could have made a world in which the sin of someone's great-great-great-great-great-grandfather DIDN'T result in a two year old suffering with a horrific cancer. But he didn't. He chose to create this world. And in a world created by an omniscient omnipotent God, there is no such thing as an unintended consequence.

So rather than have to do theological and philosophical contortions to believe that an all-loving morally perfect God could create a world that is so profoundly cruel and unfair, it's much easier (and more logical) to just eschew the idea altogether. The cruelty and unfairness of the world is perfectly understandable and predictable when we simply look at its natural causes.

 

[Typist]

Yet so many people either ignore, disregard, or even have animosity toward Jesus Christ and His loving offer. Why?

Because the sales job that is often done is often done so poorly.

Talking about love doesn't work very well. Loving works much better.

But talk is easier, so there's a lot of it.

Like, um, in this post for instance.

 

[InChrist]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. How do we seek Truth, and what is Truth? If I'd been raised by wolves (monkeys, whatever), and then discovered and brought into society, would you try to convince me that Christianity was the True religion/philosophy? How? Why should I believe you and your prophets, over others and their prophets, or the materialists, atheists or deists? Should I be an agnostic or should I be certain? It appears that uncertainty and doubt are not acceptable if the religion is the true & certain revealed Word of God; and that blind faith is the curtain behind which the priests and scriptures hide.

The only faith that isn't blind is the faith guided by reason.

I'm not trying to convince you that Christianity is the true religion. I am talking about knowing the Person of Jesus Christ. Yes, there are scriptures and prophets that refer to Him, but what I'm saying is that if God exists and if Jesus is the Creator who came to earth, conquered death, is alive right now, etc. as these scriptures say, then you should be able to sincerely seek Him personally to verify His existence and He should certainly be capable of guiding you to faith or belief which is reasonable and not blind.

 

[InChrist]

But that's entirely the problem. Granting for a minute that the Christian God exists, he's the one who created that "impact." He built this machine. He could have made a world in which the sin of someone's great-great-great-great-great-grandfather DIDN'T result in a two year old suffering with a horrific cancer. But he didn't. He chose to create this world. And in a world created by an omniscient omnipotent God, there is no such thing as an unintended consequence.

So rather than have to do theological and philosophical contortions to believe that an all-loving morally perfect God could create a world that is so profoundly cruel and unfair, it's much easier (and more logical) to just eschew the idea altogether. The cruelty and unfairness of the world is perfectly understandable and predictable when we simply look at its natural causes.

I think the biblical point is that God's focus is eternal because we are beings with eternity ahead, so has allowed the impact of sin to be seen and experienced in this temporal world so that people have the opportunity to turn from it, if they choose, for eternal life without it.

 

[InChrist]

Because the sales job that is often done is often done so poorly.

Talking about love doesn't work very well. Loving works much better.

But talk is easier, so there's a lot of it.

Like, um, in this post for instance.

I agree talk about love is easier than actions which show love. Jesus didn't just talk, He took action to show real love...But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

[JustCallMeNick]

I think the biblical point is that God's focus is eternal because we are beings with eternity ahead, so has allowed the impact of sin to be seen and experienced in this temporal world so that people have the opportunity to turn from it, if they choose, for eternal life without it.

In other words, God will somehow make all things right in the end when he sends the Jesus people to Heaven and the non-Jesus people to Hell.
If that promise works for you, so be it. Speaking for myself, that promise has rung increasingly hollow over the last few years. Without evidence, I'm simply not content to take the Bible's or the Church's say-so anymore.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I'm not trying to convince you that Christianity is the true religion. I am talking about knowing the Person of Jesus Christ. Yes, there are scriptures and prophets that refer to Him, but what I'm saying is that if God exists and if Jesus is the Creator who came to earth, conquered death, is alive right now, etc. as these scriptures say, then you should be able to sincerely seek Him personally to verify His existence and He should certainly be capable of guiding you to faith or belief which is reasonable and not blind.

The problem is, you can't "verify" any of this. You can not "seek" Jesus Christ without first believing; in which case, the mind will manifest that which it wants to believe (as any psychologist or hypnotist will tell you). In order to "find" Jesus, you already have to believe that he is there; and once you have done that, all evidence to the contrary is ignored or explained away (much like the Sandy Hook hoaxsters "explain away" or dismiss the very clear, precise and irrefutable evidence that those people are truly dead). Even the Bible says that to find him, you must come to him as like a child; and the one thing children do well is believe (Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy: All real to them!) You found what you wanted to find, you experienced what you expected to experience, and every bit of it was validated through the power of suggestion by being surrounded by others who also found what they wanted to find and experienced what they expected to experience.

 

[viole]

So you think the "band-aid" approach is best? According to the scriptures, which I believe reality attests to, all the woes of this world, including cancer, are the result of the progressive, detrimental effects of sin. The stunts you accuse Jesus of doing, I believe, were for the purpose of demonstrated who He was as God the Creator in the flesh. As the Creator He alone has power over creation, nature, life, and death. As Savior He came to deal with not simply the effects, but the root of all the infections in the world Taking away a symptom like cancer does not really solve the problem if the cause is still there. Jesus came to address sin, the cause of death.

Well, if I had dyabetes, i would expect my doctor to cure it on top of advising me about healthy eating habits for the future. A doctor that simply said: "you are sick because of your past habits, and you should know that...next" would never be considered a loving doctor.

But the real question is: was He successful in convincing people about His divinity through those miracles?

I doubt it. If we take the Gospel at face value, it seems pretty improbable that He even managed to convince His own disciples.

Those stories are absurd. It really looks like ill conceived fiction. Like that movie "Interstellar" where the austronaut comes back in time to prevent his own departure and to give the exact coordinates of the NASA place responsible for his departure.

It simply makes no sense.


Ciao

- viole

 

[InChrist]

In other words, God will somehow make all things right in the end when he sends the Jesus people to Heaven and the non-Jesus people to Hell.
If that promise works for you, so be it. Speaking for myself, that promise has rung increasingly hollow over the last few years. Without evidence, I'm simply not content to take the Bible's or the Church's say-so anymore.

“Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. Have you heard that expression before? I used to hear it often from my mom, as I was once also a lapsed Catholic. I left the Catholic Church nearly forty years ago. It took several years after that, but I finally came to know Jesus Christ. It was an eye-opener for me to realize how a church, group, or even and individual can taint the Bible, add a lot of extras, or give a distorted view of Jesus. That is the reason I believe it is important for each person to take up their search for evidence directly between themselves and God.

I think that it is reasonable to conclude that if there is a Creator, then all people and everything for that matter belong to this Creator. There really is no difference between Jesus people or non-Jesus people other than that some have made the decision that they want to spend eternity with their Creator and some decide they don’t. According to the scriptures, it is the Creator’s desire for all to enjoy eternity with Him because that is what all people were created for. Hell or rather eternal separation is not the desire God has for anyone, but He won’t force anyone to spend eternity with Him. Do you think He should?

 

[Jainarayan]

Some of us don't believe the Nazarene was anything more than a man. A few of us have our own faiths & Gods. And a good deal of us simply reject the notion that we're broken to begin with. That we would be born sick and told to be well. No. There is nothing wrong with us that needs fixing. Not in the sense Christianity claims anyway.

"The Christian resolution to find the world Ugly & Bad has made the world Ugly & Bad"

I would like to like this several times over.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am so thankful for all the advanced souls that came to earth to teach.

We can also learn from the not-so-advanced and learn from their mistakes.

 

[InChrist]

The problem is, you can't "verify" any of this. You can not "seek" Jesus Christ without first believing; in which case, the mind will manifest that which it wants to believe (as any psychologist or hypnotist will tell you). In order to "find" Jesus, you already have to believe that he is there; and once you have done that, all evidence to the contrary is ignored or explained away (much like the Sandy Hook hoaxsters "explain away" or dismiss the very clear, precise and irrefutable evidence that those people are truly dead). Even the Bible says that to find him, you must come to him as like a child; and the one thing children do well is believe (Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy: All real to them!) You found what you wanted to find, you experienced what you expected to experience, and every bit of it was validated through the power of suggestion by being surrounded by others who also found what they wanted to find and experienced what they expected to experience.

The same Bible which speaks about having faith as a child also clearly and repeatedly emphasizes the importance of wisdom, reason, understanding, discernment, searching and testing all things for truth. Along with many warnings about avoiding deception, falsehood, and being led astray from truth. So I think that clarifies that the scriptures are not saying to have naive belief or to simply believe anything because others do, rather child-like faith means to search and determine if something is true with pure motives and an honest attitude.

Having been involved with false religious groups in the past and a cult survivor myself I understand fully the power of suggestion, peer pressure, and cult mentality. I also understand the reason it is so easy for anyone to be influenced into believing false teachings and ideas and more importantly how to avoid such sway, especially concerning something as important as spiritual and eternal destiny.

 

[Jainarayan]

...all the woes of this world, including cancer, are the result of the progressive, detrimental effects of sin.

That's too easy a copy-out view. If we don't understand it, or it hurts, God did it. Or it's because we're wicked evil people. Please tell me why a 33 year old Roman Catholic nun would contract a very rare and aggressive form of cancer and die within months. Was she paying for my "sins"? I thought only Jesus paid for the sins of the world. I'm not making fun, but I want to know why it's always God's fault, or we did it to ourselves. How about a plain old 100% American-as-apple-pie "dookie happens" explanation?

 

[InChrist]

Well, if I had dyabetes, i would expect my doctor to cure it on top of advising me about healthy eating habits for the future. A doctor that simply said: "you are sick because of your past habits, and you should know that...next" would never be considered a loving doctor.

But the real question is: was He successful in convincing people about His divinity through those miracles?

I doubt it. If we take the Gospel at face value, it seems pretty improbable that He even managed to convince His own disciples.

Those stories are absurd. It really looks like ill conceived fiction. Like that movie "Interstellar" where the austronaut comes back in time to prevent his own departure and to give the exact coordinates of the NASA place responsible for his departure.

It simply makes no sense.


Ciao

- viole

A doctor cannot cure a diabetic unless the diabetic is willing to submit to the doctor’s instructions to improve health. The point I am making is that Jesus is the cure and claimed to be the cure for the greatest sickness of humanity.

If you find the accounts and miracles of Jesus recorded in the scriptures unbelievable, then it may be that you have not read them thoroughly or with a desire to know if they are true, but have already decided you don’t want to believe them. Obviously, millions of people from all walks of life and across the globe have found them to be trustworthy and believable for more than two-thousand years. More importantly, millions have found the One who is ultimately the only One worth trusting.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I just don't understand why so many people aren't grateful or don't appreciate the love Jesus Christ has demonstrated toward humanity which includes each and every person. It seems so obvious to me that we are all selfish and so often only interested in our own desires at the expense of others. The impact of such self-centeredness, which I am certainly guilty of and I think really everyone is, has done its damage in people's personal lives and in every society throughout history. I am just so thankful for a Savior who freely offers new life and the promise of eternal life free from the bondage of selfish sin. Yet so many people either ignore, disregard, or even have animosity toward Jesus Christ and His loving offer. Why?

I don't know of anyone that has animosity towards Jesus. There is animosity towards Christianity and the way it is implemented in certain regions. The main reason for rejection is simply because the claim is not verified or substantiated.

 

[InChrist]

That's too easy a copy-out view. If we don't understand it, or it hurts, God did it. Or it's because we're wicked evil people. Please tell me why a 33 year old Roman Catholic nun would contract a very rare and aggressive form of cancer and die within months. Was she paying for my "sins"? I thought only Jesus paid for the sins of the world. I'm not making fun, but I want to know why it's always God's fault, or we did it to ourselves. How about a plain old 100% American-as-apple-pie "dookie happens" explanation?

I don't even know how you would come up with the idea that a nun who had cancer and died was paying for your sins. The scriptures are clear as you said yourself, only Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
This world is under the curse of sin and it does impact everything and everyone, so it does just happen and everyone feels the negative impact of sin in one way or another.

 

[viole]

A doctor cannot cure a diabetic unless the diabetic is willing to submit to the doctor’s instructions to improve health. The point I am making is that Jesus is the cure and claimed to be the cure for the greatest sickness of humanity.

If you find the accounts and miracles of Jesus recorded in the scriptures unbelievable, then it may be that you have not read them thoroughly or with a desire to know if they are true, but have already decided you don’t want to believe them. Obviously, millions of people from all walks of life and across the globe have found them to be trustworthy and believable for more than two-thousand years. More importantly, millions have found the One who is ultimately the only One worth trusting.

I did not claim that I find those miracles unbelievable (I do, obviously, but that is not the point). And I do not credit merit points to a miracle by measuring the amount of people who believe them. People like to believe a lot of stuff and tend to mutually reinforce their delusions.

What I claim, is that Jesus disciples were not convinced, either, if the stories about those miracles on the Gospel (walking on water, turning water into wine, resurrecting Lazarus, etc) were true.

Isn't that obvious?

Ciao

- viole