The love of Jesus Christ

[Jainarayan]

I don't even know how you would come up with the idea that a nun who had cancer and died was paying for your sins. The scriptures are clear as you said yourself, only Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
This world is under the curse of sin and it does impact everything and everyone, so it does just happen and everyone feels the negative impact of sin in one way or another.

That the world is under the curse of sin is completely unacceptable. Every man, woman and child who has ever lived or ever will live is paying for the disobedience of two people? That's kind of cold.

 

[InChrist]

I don't know of anyone that has animosity towards Jesus. There is animosity towards Christianity and the way it is implemented in certain regions. The main reason for rejection is simply because the claim is not verified or substantiated.

Well, I think there have been and are valid reasons for animosity towards twisted forms of Christianity. I have some animosity toward certain forms of "Christianity' which I feel are very unbiblical and unChrist-like. Nevertheless, I think there is quite a bit of animosity directed at the Person and claims of Jesus Christ which people are so accustomed to they aren't even aware of it. For example, the way name Jesus or Jesus Christ is continually used as a curse word reveals an animosity toward Him. I don't hear the names of Buddha, Krishna, or Muhammad used on the street or in almost every movie as a curse word.

 

[InChrist]

That the world is under the curse of sin is completely unacceptable. Every man, woman and child who has ever lived or ever will live is paying for the disobedience of two people? That's kind of cold.

Not really. It is actually better to see the effects of sin now in this temporal world and have the opportunity to deal with it once and for all. The two people just represent all people because all are guilty of sin and if it was you or me who were the first two we would have also sinned. It would truly be terrible and cold-hearted if God were to let it go on for eternity, but that is not the case.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Well, I think there have been and are valid reasons for animosity towards twisted forms of Christianity. I have some animosity toward certain forms of "Christianity' which I feel are very unbiblical and unChrist-like. Nevertheless, I think there is quite a bit of animosity directed at the Person and claims of Jesus Christ which people are so accustomed to they aren't even aware of it. For example, the way name Jesus or Jesus Christ is continually used as a curse word reveals an animosity toward Him. I don't hear the names of Buddha, Krishna, or Muhammad used on the street or in almost every movie as a curse word.

That isn't out of animosity. That has developed as a literary usage of something that actually comes out of a praise of Jesus.

 

[InChrist]

I did not claim that I find those miracles unbelievable (I do, obviously, but that is not the point). And I do not credit merit points to a miracle by measuring the amount of people who believe them. People like to believe a lot of stuff and tend to mutually reinforce their delusions.

What I claim, is that Jesus disciples were not convinced, either, if the stories about those miracles on the Gospel (walking on water, turning water into wine, resurrecting Lazarus, etc) were true.

Isn't that obvious?

Ciao

- viole

Of the disciples who spent time with Jesus. only Judas did not believe. All the other twelve, except John, and many more believed to the point of suffering a martyr's death for their belief in Jesus Christ and His power as God over the natural world.

 

[InChrist]

That isn't out of animosity. That has developed as a literary usage of something that actually comes out of a praise of Jesus.

You are entitled to your perspective, but I don't see it that way. I think using the name of Jesus, or anyone's name, as a curse word is disrespectful, derogatory and the opposite of praise.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I just don't understand why so many people aren't grateful or don't appreciate the love Jesus Christ has demonstrated toward humanity which includes each and every person. It seems so obvious to me that we are all selfish and so often only interested in our own desires at the expense of others. The impact of such self-centeredness, which I am certainly guilty of and I think really everyone is, has done its damage in people's personal lives and in every society throughout history. I am just so thankful for a Savior who freely offers new life and the promise of eternal life free from the bondage of selfish sin. Yet so many people either ignore, disregard, or even have animosity toward Jesus Christ and His loving offer. Why?

Two big reasons for me:

- I see no reason to think that any of it actually happened.

- If it did happen, I don't see how it's a loving act to sacrifice onesself to onesself to pay a debt to onesself on behalf of humanity that humanity only accrued in the first place because of rules that onesself decided.

If Jesus is God, then it's masochistic, not loving. If Jesus isn't God, then God is sadistic and does not deserve our allegiance.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You are entitled to your perspective, but I don't see it that way. I think using the name of Jesus, or anyone's name, as a curse word is disrespectful, derogatory and the opposite of praise.

Well that can be your opinion but the development of the phrase and history behind it are against you. You might be able to make some kind of argument about how the blasphemous nature of the current usage of the phrase could be interpreted as animosity. However to answer your question why the other religious icons aren't being used is simply because they are not present in our culture in any were near the quantity that Christianity and Christian symbolism is. I guess one could argue that the term "god damn it" is pretty across the board and not at all directed specifically at Christianity.

 

[SkepticThinker]

“Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. Have you heard that expression before? I used to hear it often from my mom, as I was once also a lapsed Catholic. I left the Catholic Church nearly forty years ago. It took several years after that, but I finally came to know Jesus Christ. It was an eye-opener for me to realize how a church, group, or even and individual can taint the Bible, add a lot of extras, or give a distorted view of Jesus. That is the reason I believe it is important for each person to take up their search for evidence directly between themselves and God.

I think that it is reasonable to conclude that if there is a Creator, then all people and everything for that matter belong to this Creator. There really is no difference between Jesus people or non-Jesus people other than that some have made the decision that they want to spend eternity with their Creator and some decide they don’t. According to the scriptures, it is the Creator’s desire for all to enjoy eternity with Him because that is what all people were created for. Hell or rather eternal separation is not the desire God has for anyone, but He won’t force anyone to spend eternity with Him. Do you think He should?

This assumes that this god you worships exists in the first place and that everyone knows about it's existence. The latter is definitely not the case, and the former is questionable at best, so this explanation doesn't make much sense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not really. It is actually better to see the effects of sin now in this temporal world and have the opportunity to deal with it once and for all. The two people just represent all people because all are guilty of sin and if it was you or me who were the first two we would have also sinned. It would truly be terrible and cold-hearted if God were to let it go on for eternity, but that is not the case.

In my opinion, it's cold-hearted to allow it to go on at all. Never mind allowing it to go on for thousands of years with the supposed promise that some day it will all be fixed. Not today though. And not tomorrow either. Oh and not for the next several thousand years. Keep waiting though ... someday.

 

[JustCallMeNick]

“Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. Have you heard that expression before? I used to hear it often from my mom, as I was once also a lapsed Catholic. I left the Catholic Church nearly forty years ago. It took several years after that, but I finally came to know Jesus Christ. It was an eye-opener for me to realize how a church, group, or even and individual can taint the Bible, add a lot of extras, or give a distorted view of Jesus. That is the reason I believe it is important for each person to take up their search for evidence directly between themselves and God.

My journey has actually been quite different from yours. I'm not a cradle Catholic. I was raised as an Evangelical Christian, and was raised to believe, as you do, that a personal relationship with Jesus is paramount. And so far as I can tell, I had one. I genuinely believed Jesus died and rose from the grave for me, had saved me from my sins, that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and I prayed intimately and directly to God (and so do Catholics, actually - it's a common Protestant misconception that they don't). My journey into Catholicism came much later, after gaining a more nuanced and historically-based understanding of Christianity. So while I believe you are being genuine, I would simply advise you that this "knowing Jesus" that you are talking about, whatever that means to you, is simply not enough for some people. Even people who have preached the same message you are now preaching.

]I think that it is reasonable to conclude that if there is a Creator, then all people and everything for that matter belong to this Creator. There really is no difference between Jesus people or non-Jesus people other than that some have made the decision that they want to spend eternity with their Creator and some decide they don’t.

To be honest, that is a very simplistic way of thinking about it. Let's think this through. No one consciously DECIDES, "you know what? I really honestly believe that this beautiful amazing all-loving God exists and wants to shower me with love and joy for the rest of eternity. But eh, pass." Some non-believers say that facetiously, or say they wouldn't want to be in heaven while others are in hell, etc but the decision is never someone genuinely believing the Gospel is true and then declining anyway. Most people aren't Christians because they just genuinely don't believe there's enough evidence to conclude the Gospel is true. Billions have never even HEARD the Gospel to be able to make a decision one way or another. So the scenario you're painting about why non-Christians are non-Christians is just not reality.

According to the scriptures, it is the Creator’s desire for all to enjoy eternity with Him because that is what all people were created for. Hell or rather eternal separation is not the desire God has for anyone, but He won’t force anyone to spend eternity with Him. Do you think He should?

I think if He's a God of infinite (consider that - infinite. No limits. Never ending) love, he would a) make his existence plain to all rather than having to infer it through blurry signs or prophets that are only right a tiny percent of the time or disputable philosophical arguments and b) have enough forgiveness in him to not punish people for ETERNITY for mistakes they made in this finite life. That would be a start.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't even know how you would come up with the idea that a nun who had cancer and died was paying for your sins. The scriptures are clear as you said yourself, only Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
This world is under the curse of sin and it does impact everything and everyone, so it does just happen and everyone feels the negative impact of sin in one way or another.

If the world is under the curse of sin, then what exactly did Jesus die for? I thought that was the thing he was trying to fix.

 

[JFish123]

Some of us don't believe the Nazarene was anything more than a man. A few of us have our own faiths & Gods. And a good deal of us simply reject the notion that we're broken to begin with. That we would be born sick and told to be well. No. There is nothing wrong with us that needs fixing. Not in the sense Christianity claims anyway.

"The Christian resolution to find the world Ugly & Bad has made the world Ugly & Bad"

Yes, people are born selfish and bad or sick as you say.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yes, people are born selfish and bad or sick as you say.

You misunderstand. I reject the notion that we are somehow born with an innate flaw that can only be "absolved"(ignoring the fact that guilt cannot and should not be something one can just 'inherit' due to circumstances of birth) by the actions of a crying martyr. Any creator that would make us guilty-by-default due to simply being born, and then have the gall to demand we use his "get out of jail" card or else he punish us for his own failures, can **** right the hell off.

 

[InChrist]

[QUOTE="JustCallMeNick, post: 4249806, member: 56649"

]My journey has actually been quite different from yours. I'm not a cradle Catholic. I was raised as an Evangelical Christian, and was raised to believe, as you do, that a personal relationship with Jesus is paramount. And so far as I can tell, I had one. I genuinely believed Jesus died and rose from the grave for me, had saved me from my sins, that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God, and I prayed intimately and directly to God (and so do Catholics, actually - it's a common Protestant misconception that they don't). My journey into Catholicism came much later, after gaining a more nuanced and historically-based understanding of Christianity. So while I believe you are being genuine, I would simply advise you that this "knowing Jesus" that you are talking about, whatever that means to you, is simply not enough for some people. Even people who have preached the same message you are now preaching.

Thank you for sharing your background and experience. That is all I am doing is sharing, not preaching, I'm not a pastor or anything and I realize that my experiences and/or perspectives are not enough to convince anyone.

To be honest, that is a very simplistic way of thinking about it. Let's think this through. No one consciously DECIDES, "you know what? I really honestly believe that this beautiful amazing all-loving God exists and wants to shower me with love and joy for the rest of eternity. But eh, pass." Some non-believers say that facetiously, or say they wouldn't want to be in heaven while others are in hell, etc but the decision is never someone genuinely believing the Gospel is true and then declining anyway. Most people aren't Christians because they just genuinely don't believe there's enough evidence to conclude the Gospel is true. Billions have never even HEARD the Gospel to be able to make a decision one way or another. So the scenario you're painting about why non-Christians are non-Christians is just not reality.

Well, I do think it is pretty simple. It may not be as the example you gave above, but most people do not want to be accountable to any God, much less a God who is too personal, evidence or not. Instead people prefer to be in total control of their lives (at least thinking they are) and do whatever it is they want to do.

I think if He's a God of infinite (consider that - infinite. No limits. Never ending) love, he would a) make his existence plain to all rather than having to infer it through blurry signs or prophets that are only right a tiny percent of the time or disputable philosophical arguments and b) have enough forgiveness in him to not punish people for ETERNITY for mistakes they made in this finite life. That would be a start.

Infinite does mean everything is okay or that there are no limits upon the things which are against God's character and holiness...like sin. I think most everyone in every culture throughout time is aware of God's presence in that people universally know when they have done wrong and are guilty of such things as theft, murder, etc. due to the conscience the Creator has placed in each person. Along with that all of creation and the heavens testify of a Creator.
I think God has certainly demonstrated forgiveness, but if you believe He should tolerate sin and evil and let it carry on for eternity it doesn't seem you are thinking it through. Any smart and caring parent would keep Uncle Joe away from their child and never let him be around that child or any other child, for that matter, if Uncle Joe was a child molester. In the eternal realm sin and anyone associated with it will be separated (logically) for eternity. I believe God is eternal and each person created in His image is now eternal, so sins committed in this life against God or anyone else has eternal ramifications...unless one accepts God's forgiveness, cleansing, and new life.

 

[InChrist]

If the world is under the curse of sin, then what exactly did Jesus die for? I thought that was the thing he was trying to fix.

He died to offer new life in the new heavens and new earth. He was not trying to fix this world which is passing away.

 

[InChrist]

This assumes that this god you worships exists in the first place and that everyone knows about it's existence. The latter is definitely not the case, and the former is questionable at best, so this explanation doesn't make much sense.

I think everyone knows that a Creator God exists to one extent or another and God will lead anyone who seeks to know more to Himself.

 

[InChrist]

In my opinion, it's cold-hearted to allow it to go on at all. Never mind allowing it to go on for thousands of years with the supposed promise that some day it will all be fixed. Not today though. And not tomorrow either. Oh and not for the next several thousand years. Keep waiting though ... someday.

If He didn't allow it to go on you wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be here, nor your family or friends. The only alternative would have been for God to destroy everyone, but God is patience with us, looking at the eternal not the temporal as we do and offering the opportunity to everyone to learn, change and find hope in the love and future He desires us to share with Him.

 

[InChrist]

You misunderstand. I reject the notion that we are somehow born with an innate flaw that can only be "absolved"(ignoring the fact that guilt cannot and should not be something one can just 'inherit' due to circumstances of birth) by the actions of a crying martyr. Any creator that would make us guilty-by-default due to simply being born, and then have the gall to demand we use his "get out of jail" card or else he punish us for his own failures, can **** right the hell off.

I don't believe the message of the scriptures is that we are guilty by simply being born, but rather that as a fallen human race we each have the propensity for sin which we each at one point act upon so then we are each personally guilty and need forgiveness and change.

"A common accusation against Christianity is that it unfairly judges people. In particular, some people say that God sets us up for failure, and then punishes us for the failure that He caused. If that were true, it would indeed be an unfair situation. Is that the way Christianity works? Does God unfairly judge us for something we have no control over? The answers are found in the Bible."

"Some might argue that we cannot choose our family, so God cannot hold us accountable for the sin nature. While we might not have any choice about how we’re born, the Bible is clear that we do have a choice about our sins. Earlier, we looked at Ephesians 2:3, which says that we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. That is a choice. Romans 5:12 says that “all sinned.” We are sinners by deed as well as by nature. Our own sin condemns us, not just Adam’s. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice. When we choose sin, we become guilty before God, and His judgment is fair."

Read more: If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?

 

[Nietzsche]

I don't believe the message of the scriptures is that we are guilty by simply being born, but rather that as a fallen human race we each have the propensity for sin which we each at one point act upon so then we are each personally guilty and need forgiveness and change.

"A common accusation against Christianity is that it unfairly judges people. In particular, some people say that God sets us up for failure, and then punishes us for the failure that He caused. If that were true, it would indeed be an unfair situation. Is that the way Christianity works? Does God unfairly judge us for something we have no control over? The answers are found in the Bible."

"Some might argue that we cannot choose our family, so God cannot hold us accountable for the sin nature. While we might not have any choice about how we’re born, the Bible is clear that we do have a choice about our sins. Earlier, we looked at Ephesians 2:3, which says that we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. That is a choice. Romans 5:12 says that “all sinned.” We are sinners by deed as well as by nature. Our own sin condemns us, not just Adam’s. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice. When we choose sin, we become guilty before God, and His judgment is fair."

Read more: If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?

Assuming the Biblical account is more or less accurate, we only sin because we are descended from the first sinners. Adam nor Eve knew of sin before the Fruit of Knowledge. But because of that original sin we are now incapable of not-sinning. This is a Sisyphean task. We sin without knowing, and our very senses lie to us(things that feel good and are harmless but the Bible declares as sinful).

Biblically we are born broken, set up only to fail, and are punished for eternity if we don't beg the pardon of the one who put us here in the first place.