The love of Jesus Christ

[Deidre]

Where are you getting this notion that the world is 'under a curse of sin?' You speak authoritatively. lol
If you are deriving this notion from Genesis, aren't we supposed to take the story of Adam and Eve as a ...metaphor? It isn't to be taken literally? If the Adam and Eve story is to be interpreted as a metaphor, and not literally...then there is no such thing as ''original sin''.

I don't even know how you would come up with the idea that a nun who had cancer and died was paying for your sins. The scriptures are clear as you said yourself, only Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
This world is under the curse of sin and it does impact everything and everyone, so it does just happen and everyone feels the negative impact of sin in one way or another.

 

[InChrist]

Assuming the Biblical account is more or less accurate, we only sin because we are descended from the first sinners. Adam nor Eve knew of sin before the Fruit of Knowledge. But because of that original sin we are now incapable of not-sinning. This is a Sisyphean task. We sin without knowing, and our very senses lie to us(things that feel good and are harmless but the Bible declares as sinful).

Biblically we are born broken, set up only to fail, and are punished for eternity if we don't beg the pardon of the one who put us here in the first place.

I personally don't agree that we sin without knowing, if that were true we wouldn't be so sneaky and so often try to hide or get away with the wrong things we do which we know are wrong.

 

[InChrist]

Where are you getting this notion that the world is 'under a curse of sin?' You speak authoritatively. lol
If you are deriving this notion from Genesis, aren't we supposed to take the story of Adam and Eve as a ...metaphor? It isn't to be taken literally? If the Adam and Eve story is to be interpreted as a metaphor, and not literally...then there is no such thing as ''original sin''.

I didn't know I was supposed to take Genesis as a metaphor.

 

[Deidre]

I didn't know I was supposed to take Genesis as a metaphor.

You don't know, how glad I am that you said this. I was brought up Catholic, and the RCC teaches that it may be interpreted as a metaphor. The fact that you take it seriously, it's just not something I hear everyday. At one time, I took it seriously, too.

 

[Nietzsche]

I personally don't agree that we sin without knowing, if that were true we wouldn't be so sneaky and so often try to hide or get away with the wrong things we do which we know are wrong.

You take away societal mores, or simply grow up in a different society and your sense of right & wrong, your sense of what is 'sin', will be radically different. These are things that are taught. The only two truly universal morals are "Don't murder" and "Don't steal".

 

[JustCallMeNick]

Well, I do think it is pretty simple. It may not be as the example you gave above, but most people do not want to be accountable to any God, much less a God who is too personal, evidence or not. Instead people prefer to be in total control of their lives (at least thinking they are) and do whatever it is they want to do.

But that knife cuts both ways, InChrist. For every non-believer that wouldn't WANT there to be a God, there is a Christian who wouldn't want there NOT to be a God. Many Christians, I think, are terrified of the thought of a godless world where they wouldn't have an infallible source of moral and spiritual guidance to look to. So rather than talk about what we want to be true, I think it's much more helpful to just look at where the evidence points.

Infinite does mean everything is okay or that there are no limits upon the things which are against God's character and holiness...like sin.

Oh c'mon, InChrist! The whole point of forgiveness is that it is supposed to TRUMP sin! Grace, I've been told my whole life, means getting something you don't deserve. In the famous passage from 1 Corinthians 13, Paul says love keeps no record of wrongs. So if we're talking about a God who is INFINITELY loving, INFINITELY gracious, surely you must see that such a great God must be able to handle our measly little sins here in this life without damning us to eternal torment forever. Even when we don't ask for it (don't you forgive that way? Have you only ever forgiven people in your life who asked for it or who "deserved" it? If we are capable of such selflessness, surely an infinitely loving God is, too).

I think most everyone in every culture throughout time is aware of God's presence in that people universally know when they have done wrong and are guilty of such things as theft, murder, etc. due to the conscience the Creator has placed in each person. Along with that all of creation and the heavens testify of a Creator.

We could take a whole thread just to discuss each of those pieces of "evidence," for God, so I won't go off on that tangent now.

I think God has certainly demonstrated forgiveness, but if you believe He should tolerate sin and evil and let it carry on for eternity it doesn't seem you are thinking it through.

I don't think I said that. I said that if God is really all that Christians say he is - all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving - then surely he should be able to arrange the situation so that evil is eliminated from the world without sending people to everlasting torment simply because they did not "get the message" in this life.

Any smart and caring parent would keep Uncle Joe away from their child and never let him be around that child or any other child, for that matter, if Uncle Joe was a child molester.

I don't follow your analogy. Are you comparing sinners being kept out of heaven to child molesters being kept away from children? Yikes. You must see how terrible that analogy is.

In the eternal realm sin and anyone associated with it will be separated (logically) for eternity.

We aren't in "the eternal realm." We're right here on this rock hurtling through space. We have tiny finite brains that make imperfect decisions based on imperfect information. What you are saying is something like telling a 5 year old that because she didn't eat her peas tonight, her punishment is life in prison. And actually what you're suggesting is much, much more terrible than even that.

I believe God is eternal and each person created in His image is now eternal, so sins committed in this life against God or anyone else has eternal ramifications...unless one accepts God's forgiveness, cleansing, and new life.

I realize you are saying that because that's what you've been taught to say, but I hope you can at least see why I don't find that explanation very convincing.

 

[InChrist]

Oh c'mon, InChrist! The whole point of forgiveness is that it is supposed to TRUMP sin! Grace, I've been told my whole life, means getting something you don't deserve. In the famous passage from 1 Corinthians 13, Paul says love keeps no record of wrongs. So if we're talking about a God who is INFINITELY loving, INFINITELY gracious, surely you must see that such a great God must be able to handle our measly little sins here in this life without damning us to eternal torment forever. Even when we don't ask for it (don't you forgive that way? Have you only ever forgiven people in your life who asked for it or who "deserved" it? If we are capable of such selflessness, surely an infinitely loving God is, too).

Yes, the point of biblical forgiveness is grace. I’m not saying otherwise or that God keeps a record of wrongs...after a person is honest, confesses and repents. But the grace of God cannot be applied to someone who is determined to continue on in their sin.

I don't think I said that. I said that if God is really all that Christians say he is - all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving - then surely he should be able to arrange the situation so that evil is eliminated from the world without sending people to everlasting torment simply because they did not "get the message" in this life.

Our perspectives are different,. I don’t look at it as God sending people to everlasting torment because they did not “get the message”. First, I don’t believe God’s plan is to arrange the situation and force people to repent and stop sinning, as it must be a freewill choice. So if there are those who desire to continue with their sin or evil then it cannot be eliminated, but must be separated. The torment results from one's realization of being separated from all that is good in God and completely separated from His light. Secondly, I believe God makes sure everyone has the opportunity to receive the needed message.

I don't follow your analogy. Are you comparing sinners being kept out of heaven to child molesters being kept away from children? Yikes. You must see how terrible that analogy is.
We aren't in "the eternal realm." We're right here on this rock hurtling through space. We have tiny finite brains that make imperfect decisions based on imperfect information. What you are saying is something like telling a 5 year old that because she didn't eat her peas tonight, her punishment is life in prison. And actually what you're suggesting is much, much more terrible than even that.

I don’t think we are lacking the needed information or that it is at all the same as punishing a 5 year old with life imprisonment for not eating her peas. I do think that you, as most people, including me, really have no true concept of how terrible sin is and how it has marred God’s creation, is an affront to His holiness, and harms others. It appears you expect God abandon justice and simply to treat sin as trivial (measly little sins) and sweep it all under the rug.

I realize you are saying that because that's what you've been taught to say, but I hope you can at least see why I don't find that explanation very convincing.

I’m saying it because it makes sense as I’ve prayed and searched the subject out myself. I certainly don’t expect to convince you and hope that I wouldn’t since being convincing concerning important spiritual matters is between you and God alone.
Nice having conversation with you, but don't feel the necessity to respond quickly as I probably will be offline for the remainder of the evening. Have a good night, Nick.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

If you are deriving this notion from Genesis, aren't we supposed to take the story of Adam and Eve as a ...metaphor?

I was brought up Catholic, and the RCC teaches that it may be interpreted as a metaphor.

Hello Deidre -- I believe you when you say you were taught that Genesis may be interpreted as a metaphor because there are catechists in some parishes who don’t know any better. The RCC permits a literal belief or not only on certain points in Genesis. For example a Catholic may believe that God created the universe in 7 consecutive 24 days or in 7 longer periods of time.

According to the Magisterium, this is what must be believed about creation in order to be in accord with the teachings of the Church:

1. The creation by God of all things at the beginning of time
2. The special creation by God of man
3. The formation of woman from man
4. The unity of the human race
5. The original happiness of our first parents in a state of justice
6. The divine command laid upon man by God to prove obedience
7. The transgression of that command at the instigation of the devil in the form of a serpent
8. The fall of our original parents from their primitive state of innocence
9. The promise of a future redeemer

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

The same Bible which speaks about having faith as a child also clearly and repeatedly emphasizes the importance of wisdom, reason, understanding, discernment, searching and testing all things for truth. Along with many warnings about avoiding deception, falsehood, and being led astray from truth. So I think that clarifies that the scriptures are not saying to have naive belief or to simply believe anything because others do, rather child-like faith means to search and determine if something is true with pure motives and an honest attitude.

Having been involved with false religious groups in the past and a cult survivor myself I understand fully the power of suggestion, peer pressure, and cult mentality. I also understand the reason it is so easy for anyone to be influenced into believing false teachings and ideas and more importantly how to avoid such sway, especially concerning something as important as spiritual and eternal destiny.

But the "truth" is not measured by facts or predictive models of reality. "Truth" is not measured by comparisons or that which is right in front of your face. ""Truth" is measured by a book believed to be the holy inspired word of God.
Thus, if "God said, let there be light'; and there was light", and that light exists without a light source, then that is truth because it says so in the Bible; though we know this to be impossible. If the Bible says that he was raised on the 3rd day, then that is truth; in spite of the impossibility of one being reanimated after death. If the Bible says that a buch of guys went around healing the sick through prayer, then that is the truth; in spite of all the facts and knowledge we have of biology and medicine. That is the very definition of "cult" and "indoctrination"; to take the word of a leader or group of leaders without question; fearing rejection or separation from those should you believe differently; accepting a given thing as truth while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

 

[viole]

Of the disciples who spent time with Jesus. only Judas did not believe. All the other twelve, except John, and many more believed to the point of suffering a martyr's death for their belief in Jesus Christ and His power as God over the natural world.

Well, I am not sure.

I think we can make the following logical argument:

1) Jesus performed miracles in order to prove His divinity and to prove that He is in control of life and death
2) the disciples (except Judas) were convinced that He was divine and in control of life and death
3) the divinity the disciples believed in cannot lie (same God of the Bible)
4) Jesus anticipated His death and resurrection on the third day (Mark 8:31)
5) the disciple were convinced that Jesus would die and resurrect on the third day (because of 2 and 3)

Do you agree with my analysis and conclusion?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think everyone knows that a Creator God exists to one extent or another and God will lead anyone who seeks to know more to Himself.

You think wrong.

 

[InChrist]

But the "truth" is not measured by facts or predictive models of reality. "Truth" is not measured by comparisons or that which is right in front of your face. ""Truth" is measured by a book believed to be the holy inspired word of God.
Thus, if "God said, let there be light'; and there was light", and that light exists without a light source, then that is truth because it says so in the Bible; though we know this to be impossible. If the Bible says that he was raised on the 3rd day, then that is truth; in spite of the impossibility of one being reanimated after death. If the Bible says that a buch of guys went around healing the sick through prayer, then that is the truth; in spite of all the facts and knowledge we have of biology and medicine. That is the very definition of "cult" and "indoctrination"; to take the word of a leader or group of leaders without question; fearing rejection or separation from those should you believe differently; accepting a given thing as truth while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

You are certainly free to base your idea of truth only upon materialistic evidence right in front of your face. I just don't believe this finite evidence is the limit to truth. I sense so much in this world and universe which indicates way more going on than what my eyes can see.and consider the Creator's infinite revelation so much more complete than my small, finite perception. You can accuse me of being indoctrinated, fearful whatever, but it's just not accurate. I have no leader or group of leaders, except Jesus and His perfect love casts out all fear.

 

[InChrist]

Well, I am not sure.

I think we can make the following logical argument:

1) Jesus performed miracles in order to prove His divinity and to prove that He is in control of life and death
2) the disciples (except Judas) were convinced that He was divine and in control of life and death
3) the divinity the disciples believed in cannot lie (same God of the Bible)
4) Jesus anticipated His death and resurrection on the third day (Mark 8:31)
5) the disciple were convinced that Jesus would die and resurrect on the third day (because of 2 and 3)

Do you agree with my analysis and conclusion?

Ciao

- viole

I can agree with 1) and 4), but while the disciples for the most part knew there was something very special about Jesus, I don't believe they realized He would die and be resurrected or fully understand His divinity until after His resurrection. Thomas had to actually see and touch the wounds of the resurrected Jesus. From this point on the disciples and apostles clearly knew and remained convinced.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

You are certainly free to base your idea of truth only upon materialistic evidence right in front of your face.

That is where the real discoveries are made, and where knowledge is acquired.

I just don't believe this finite evidence is the limit to truth. I sense so much in this world and universe which indicates way more going on than what my eyes can see

Of COURSE our finite evidence is not the limit to "truth" (provided we define "truth" as "fact" or "knowledge". Science is always expanding; there are many unanswered questions; and each answer generally brings more questions.

 

[JustCallMeNick]

Yes, the point of biblical forgiveness is grace. I’m not saying otherwise or that God keeps a record of wrongs...after a person is honest, confesses and repents. But the grace of God cannot be applied to someone who is determined to continue on in their sin.

Now InChrist, I'm sure I don't need to tell you not to add to the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 13 does not say love keeps no record of wrongs "if a person does x, y, z..." It places no ifs ands or buts on love. And remember that God is love itself. There is no greater love than his. Surely, again, if what Christians say about God is true, he must be powerful and loving enough to overcome our sin (or if 1 Corinthians is any indication, not even keep a RECORD of our sins), even when we don't ask for it.

Our perspectives are different,. I don’t look at it as God sending people to everlasting torment because they did not “get the message”. First, I don’t believe God’s plan is to arrange the situation and force people to repent and stop sinning, as it must be a freewill choice. So if there are those who desire to continue with their sin or evil then it cannot be eliminated, but must be separated. The torment results from one's realization of being separated from all that is good in God and completely separated from His light.

But again, I keep coming back to this point: God didn't have to make things this way. You're acting as though we force God's hand or something. God is all-powerful and limitless. All things are possible with him. Surely in his endless knowledge and power he could have devised a scenario that didn't require people to be condemned to never-ending suffering.

Secondly, I believe God makes sure everyone has the opportunity to receive the needed message.

But we know that's simply not so. If the message is, "Jesus died and rose again for your sins," billions upon billions have died without receiving that message. Them's just the facts.

I don’t think we are lacking the needed information or that it is at all the same as punishing a 5 year old with life imprisonment for not eating her peas. I do think that you, as most people, including me, really have no true concept of how terrible sin is and how it has marred God’s creation, is an affront to His holiness, and harms others. It appears you expect God abandon justice and simply to treat sin as trivial (measly little sins) and sweep it all under the rug.

But InChrist, again, we are dealing with an infinite God.. We are specks of a speck in comparison to him. Anything we have done or not done in this life IS measly and forgettable in comparison to infinity. James 4:14 says, "For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away." If God would create a world in which he would be so profoundly offended by our finite ignorant imperfect actions here in this life I can only repeat myself: God chose this. That should make us all stop and think.

Thanks for the conversation InChrist, I'll let you have the last word if you want it.

 

[Deidre]

Hello Deidre -- I believe you when you say you were taught that Genesis may be interpreted as a metaphor because there are catechists in some parishes who don’t know any better. The RCC permits a literal belief or not only on certain points in Genesis. For example a Catholic may believe that God created the universe in 7 consecutive 24 days or in 7 longer periods of time.

According to the Magisterium, this is what must be believed about creation in order to be in accord with the teachings of the Church:

1. The creation by God of all things at the beginning of time
2. The special creation by God of man
3. The formation of woman from man
4. The unity of the human race
5. The original happiness of our first parents in a state of justice
6. The divine command laid upon man by God to prove obedience
7. The transgression of that command at the instigation of the devil in the form of a serpent
8. The fall of our original parents from their primitive state of innocence
9. The promise of a future redeemer

I appreciate you sharing this, I'm aware of what the RCC teaches, and at this point...I don't really like what the RCC stands for, to be honest. I'm not sure it even knows what it stands for, anymore. I don't follow any religion, now.

 

[viole]

I can agree with 1) and 4), but while the disciples for the most part knew there was something very special about Jesus, I don't believe they realized He would die and be resurrected or fully understand His divinity until after His resurrection. Thomas had to actually see and touch the wounds of the resurrected Jesus. From this point on the disciples and apostles clearly knew and remained convinced.

Yes, but He anticipated very precisely His death and resurrection on the third day in Mark. Why didn't they take Hm seriously, if they thought He was divine?

So, let't analyze the plausibility of the events:

1) Jesus announces the unfolding of events that will eventually lead to his death and resurrection on the third day
2) The disciples, for some reason, do not take His words seriously
3) the events unfold as predicted. Jesus dies
4) at the time of Hid death, several amazing things happen. An earthquake, an eclipse of the sun, and the opening of several graves followed by spiritual entities wandering about (if the Gospel is reliable)

After that, it appears as if the disciples memory has been zapped away. None of them said something like: wait, didnt He anticipate all this? And were not all those events at the time of His death supernatural? It is not like graves open up and ghosts get out of them every day. Maybe we should wait until the end of the weekend and be ready if the final prophecy (resurrection) occurs.

Nothing. They did not even believe the first accounts of His resurrection. Jesus had to show His face and wounds in order to convince them.

Why doesn't that generate any cognitive dissonance?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Yes, people are born selfish and bad or sick as you say.

What a simplistic understanding of the complexities of human behaviour. Let me post two scenes from an episode of Star Trek TNG. It's has about as much credibility as your video, that assumes that human awareness of what is possible is not settled, and we still have room to grow once the material complexities of material poverty and ignorance have been solved. And yes, I have hope they are solvable.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

You can accuse me of being indoctrinated, fearful whatever, but it's just not accurate. I have no leader or group of leaders, except Jesus and His perfect love casts out all fear.

That bothers me. I believe that you are not indoctrinated, that's fine. But what bothers me is your claim that your interpretation is unique to you.

How many other individuals can we gather together under the general label of Christian? You may share many aspects of faith with others with such labels, such as belief in scripture, original sin, and so on. But you are implying that your interpretation of these events are unique to you, and that your ideas are essentially interpretive based on the texts you accept and that's it. If your interpretation is the only one that matters to you (which is fine, BTW), then you have to first convince all other Christians that your interpretation of those texts is correct first.

If all other Christians do not share your interpretations, and your rejection of any Christian authority claims exactly that, then you are church of one. The specific phenomena outside of yourself, written or material, is what you personally accept as true. Not even the opinions of other Christians are important, as you do not accept them as part of your worldview. That sounds terrible and lonely.

Care to backpedal? You learned about Christianity from somewhere. Don't discount it, because it cheapens your beliefs.

 

[InChrist]

That bothers me. I believe that you are not indoctrinated, that's fine. But what bothers me is your claim that your interpretation is unique to you.

How many other individuals can we gather together under the general label of Christian? You may share many aspects of faith with others with such labels, such as belief in scripture, original sin, and so on. But you are implying that your interpretation of these events are unique to you, and that your ideas are essentially interpretive based on the texts you accept and that's it. If your interpretation is the only one that matters to you (which is fine, BTW), then you have to first convince all other Christians that your interpretation of those texts is correct first.

If all other Christians do not share your interpretations, and your rejection of any Christian authority claims exactly that, then you are church of one. The specific phenomena outside of yourself, written or material, is what you personally accept as true. Not even the opinions of other Christians are important, as you do not accept them as part of your worldview. That sounds terrible and lonely.

Care to backpedal? You learned about Christianity from somewhere. Don't discount it, because it cheapens your beliefs.

I certainly don't claim my interpretation is unique to me. Millions of believers in Jesus Christ over the last couple of thousand years have shared the same views when it comes to the important basic teachings of the scriptures because the scriptures interpret and clarify themselves by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Although, there may be differences in the non-essentials as each person understands at a different rate, all Christians agree on the essentials. I have friendships with many believers from varying backgrounds and perspectives, yet we are one in Christ. and our view on the truths of God's Word. It's not terrible or lonely at all

...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21