The masked truth....

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks, Unveiled Artist. I appreciate you sharing your personal story here. I empathize with you as when I was a kid, I spent a lot of time in the hospital, too - not that it can compare to what you’ve gone through I’m sure, but I can relate a little bit.

There are always exceptions to the rule. If someone is truly enfeebled or elderly and a mask makes them miserable, of course they deserve some slack, and some compassion.

For the rest of them - and that is the vast majority - they are acting like spoiled children, and I can no longer keep up the pretense that they are grown adults. It’s become too exhausting. They’ve “lost their privileges” so to speak and I’ll speak to them like and adult when they are ready to act like adults again!

I can see why you'd say they (thinking of the protesters) act like children. I do see their point of view, though. For example, not wearing masks because it takes away from one's freedom makes sense. I can see that point of view because we Americans-our history and culture-our built on our freedom of choice. So when political authorities like those most don't trust are saying to do one thing there is a backlash. Then you have mixed messages. First the masks are suggested. Then they are for health professionals.

Then everyone should wear a mask-yet people are wearing scarves as if when people come in their area a scarf will some how lower the risk of disease spread. I can't imagine telling a doctor to wear a scarf if he is treating someone with any deadly disease. Then you see people with masks but then have sports symbols and color coordinated. Can you imagine in Hurricane Katrina if they were picking out what can keep them afloat, they choose by color of say raft than just picking one to keep from drowning.

When you see stuff like this and people are just "told" to stay in their homes but not enforced, it makes it less of an emergency. Then lean on what they get from the media and online. You know I'd rather consult doctors in person about it than the media or t.v. because I can actually have conversation to make sense of why that doctor believe this or that. Since I'm not a professional, I just go off my own bias and what I think I know-which doesn't include the other side of the story.

Anyway. Gets kinda frustrating but only so when I see the marketing-mask part of it. The anti-maskers do have their points but like I said actions are what saves not people's opinions.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hm. I usually listen to the talks he gives on Youtube to the public so I can hear it from his mouth. Tweets and things like that are secondary resources, I guess one can say or third. Media I don't give time a day since they tend to be biased. I bet Trump, himself, isn't as bad as people say he is. Just I think he's not in an appropriate role to be president. I don't think people even liked him from the start. First impressions.

My first impression was during the GOP primary. He gave an interview live after the debate in which he claimed he couldn’t release his tax returns because he gets audited. Also, he suggested it was very unfair and the reason he gets audited is because he is Christian.

No really, he said that. I watched him say it.

It’s example #1 of literally thousands that he is a compulsive liar. He’s been lying ever since, and the virus has sadly been no different. He repeatedly lied in recent interviews with Fox News and again with Axios, to take recent examples.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I can see why you'd say they (thinking of the protesters) act like children. I do see their point of view, though. For example, not wearing masks because it takes away from one's freedom makes sense. I can see that point of view because we Americans-our history and culture-our built on our freedom of choice. So when political authorities like those most don't trust are saying to do one thing there is a backlash. Then you have mixed messages. First the masks are suggested. Then they are for health professionals.

Then everyone should wear a mask-yet people are wearing scarves as if when people come in their area a scarf will some how lower the risk of disease spread. I can't imagine telling a doctor to wear a scarf if he is treating someone with any deadly disease. Then you see people with masks but then have sports symbols and color coordinated. Can you imagine in Hurricane Katrina if they were picking out what can keep them afloat, they choose by color of say raft than just picking one to keep from drowning.

When you see stuff like this and people are just "told" to stay in their homes but not enforced, it makes it less of an emergency. Then lean on what they get from the media and online. You know I'd rather consult doctors in person about it than the media or t.v. because I can actually have conversation to make sense of why that doctor believe this or that. Since I'm not a professional, I just go off my own bias and what I think I know-which doesn't include the other side of the story.

Anyway. Gets kinda frustrating but only so when I see the marketing-mask part of it. The anti-maskers do have their points but like I said actions are what saves not people's opinions.

But you missed the part when for several weeks, Trump and Right Wing Media downplayed the virus and attributed it to a plot to damage Trump’s re-election chances. That was an earthquake of misleading information in those crucial early days, and the residual opposition to mask-wearing is part of the aftershock.

Concerns about “freedom” and being “confused” by mixed messages about mask-wearing are, largely, lame excuses by Trumpworld to justify their residual defiance of taking the virus seriously.

If Republican Sherrifs in North Carolina were concerned about “freedom” they would refuse to enforce the bans on large gatherings - that’s a way bigger potential threat to “freedom” than wearing masks. I’ve heard of government repressing people by limiting large gatherings and restricting the right to assemble. I’ve never heard of government controlling people by forcing them to wear masks ... if anything, the government forbids face coverings during protests to they can identify troublemakers. The “freedom” argument is absurd.

And if the messaging around wearing masks is “confusing” then why aren’t any anti-maskers claiming to actually be “confused”? I.e., at the beginning of the pandemic there was concern if everyone bought masks it would exacerbate shortages of PPE at hospitals. Do anti-maskers, today, actually refuse to wear masks because they are worried it will cause a shortage in hospitals? Did they hear we shouldn’t run out and buy N95 masks months ago, and they never got the updated guidance that we should now wear masks? No. That’s not what they say. They just point to the change in directive, and call that “confusing”, when they are not, in fact, “confused”. When they hear the updated guidance, they simply reject it as being inconsistent with previous guidance, as if that alone is a valid excuse.

This is teenager, perhaps even toddler-level complaining, not worthy of grown adults.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My first impression was during the GOP primary. He gave an interview live after the debate in which he claimed he couldn’t release his tax returns because he gets audited. Also, he suggested it was very unfair and the reason he gets audited is because he is Christian.

No really, he said that. I watched him say it.

It’s example #1 of literally thousands that he is a compulsive liar. He’s been lying ever since, and the virus has sadly been no different. He repeatedly lied in recent interviews with Fox News and again with Axios, to take recent examples.

Something I looked up when looking up what you posted. I don't keep up since I don't want to hate the guy. But that's interesting.

"Because it’s simply expected. Every major presidential candidate in the modern era has done so. Even Richard Nixon released his tax returns while he was being audited. Most voters believe they have a right to know how much a candidate pays in taxes, gives to charities, and claims in credits and deductions."

It was saying that presidents weren't required to but most did so I guess it became a tradition.

I didn't keep up with him to know what he lied about and what he didn't. I just don't think he was a good candidate for presidency. I don't care for his demeanor and attitude.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But you missed the part when for several weeks, Trump and Right Wing Media downplayed the virus and attributed it to a plot to damage Trump’s re-election chances. That was an earthquake of misleading information in those crucial early days, and the residual opposition to mask-wearing is part of the aftershock.

Concerns about “freedom” and being “confused” by mixed messages about mask-wearing are, largely, lame excuses by Trumpworld to justify their residual defiance of taking the virus seriously.

If Republican Sherrifs in North Carolina were concerned about “freedom” they would refuse to enforce the bans on large gatherings - that’s a way bigger potential threat to “freedom” than wearing masks. I’ve heard of government repressing people by limiting large gatherings and restricting the right to assemble. I’ve never heard of government controlling people by forcing them to wear masks ... if anything, the government forbids face coverings during protests to they can identify troublemakers. The “freedom” argument is absurd.

And if the messaging around wearing masks is “confusing” then why aren’t any anti-maskers claiming to actually be “confused”? I.e., at the beginning of the pandemic there was concern if everyone bought masks it would exacerbate shortages of PPE at hospitals. Do anti-maskers, today, actually refuse to wear masks because they are worried it will cause a shortage in hospitals? Did they hear we shouldn’t run out and buy N95 masks months ago, and they never got the updated guidance that we should now wear masks? No. That’s not what they say. They just point to the change in directive, and call that “confusing”, when they are not, in fact, “confused”. When they hear the updated guidance, they simply reject it as being inconsistent with previous guidance, as if that alone is a valid excuse.

This is teenager, perhaps even toddler-level complaining, not worthy of grown adults.

If you take the politics out, it does kinda make sense. Americans pretty much love our freedom so to deprive people of that because of authority (hence why we separated from church-authority for example) is a real and justified excuse for the emotions people feel about not wearing masks. It's not simply "oh, today 10,000, tomorrow 20,000" on t.v. and all of the sudden we expect people to just divinely accept the numbers and be belittled if not. Maybe a bomb threat, yes. But this? It's a psychological thing.

The messages were confusing, though. It doesn't mean that masks don't work, it's just that we got so much conflicting information and "cases" per every other cough or sneeze (in my opinion) that it seems more overblown than anything else. (The politics around the virus and masks not the virus and efficiency of the masks itself.)

Aside from the people whose families and friends suffered from the virus, do you feel people should just take what they hear and read if the subject says "death, contagious, and millions"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If you take the politics out, it does kinda make sense. Americans pretty much love our freedom so to deprive people of that because of authority (hence why we separated from church-authority for example) is a real and justified excuse for the emotions people feel about not wearing masks. It's not simply "oh, today 10,000, tomorrow 20,000" on t.v. and all of the sudden we expect people to just divinely accept the numbers and be belittled if not. Maybe a bomb threat, yes. But this? It's a psychological thing.

The messages were confusing, though. It doesn't mean that masks don't work, it's just that we got so much conflicting information and "cases" per every other cough or sneeze (in my opinion) that it seems more overblown than anything else. (The politics around the virus and masks not the virus and efficiency of the masks itself.)

Aside from the people whose families and friends suffered from the virus, do you feel people should just take what they hear and read if the subject says "death, contagious, and millions"?

I disagree that “freedom” is a real and justified excuse for opposing the minor inconvenience of masks during the peak of a global pandemic spread by a respiratory disease, which has already in only 6 months killed more Americans than any war, except WWII and the Civil War, and hospitalized many more. But to each his or her own.

I was not confused by the messaging at all, I found it clear and easy to follow. But let’s say, for the sake of argument, the messaging was indeed confusing. Are the people who oppose masks “confused” about whether masks are required? No, they are not. They don’t even claim to be. If someone sincerely thinks masks aren’t required today, because they weren’t required months ago, then sure, those individuals deserve some slack. But by and large, mask opponents know full well masks are required. They aren’t confused any more than a teenager is confused about a newer, stricter curfew - they simply don’t like it and are whining.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree that “freedom” is a real and justified excuse for opposing the minor inconvenience of masks during the peak of a global pandemic spread by a respiratory disease, which has already in only 6 months killed more Americans than any war, except WWII and the Civil War, and hospitalized many more. But to each his or her own.

I was not confused by the messaging at all, I found it clear and easy to follow. But let’s say, for the sake of argument, the messaging was indeed confusing. Are the people who oppose masks “confused” about whether masks are required? No, they are not. They don’t even claim to be. If someone sincerely thinks masks aren’t required today, because they weren’t required months ago, then sure, those individuals deserve some slack. But by and large, mask opponents know full well masks are required. They aren’t confused any more than a teenager is confused about a newer, stricter curfew - they simply don’t like it and are whining.

Actions save, opinions don't. I see freedom is justified to each person's right to feel and speak their mind about the situation. Emotions can make people turn on each other feeling they are morally justified in their responses. But I do believe freedom is a justified excuse. It doesn't excuse not wearing masks, social distancing, and washing hands (the actions) but the feelings and opinions makes sense.

I usually don't watch numbers. Seeing 6 million cases and such makes it seem more overblown. I'm not sure the criteria of why people believe all they see on tv but they do. If 5 people died, the disease will still be contagious. Death numbers for contagious illness just don't get me.

For some odd reason I have a hunch the cases will drop if Trump doesn't become reelected. Don't know why. Gut feeling.

Confusion is not an action. One person can be confused and the other person no. I know people wore masks long before it was required. People react to extreneous events differently.

The biggest ones I heard was freedom and political authority and mask marketing rather than confusion.

But the asymptomatic thing bothers me. We don't just wake up sick with one virus but need criteria to develop others. We breathe each other's air daily all our lives. The virus isn't a plague and isn't a gas. So, I can see how people see it doesn't work. It's for the sick and health professionals.

I finally found a link that have good reasons for not wearing masks. The author mentioned the N95s are meant (remembering off hand) goal is to filter out pathogens. They need to be replaced least every 30 some odd mins. If one wears it all the time all that stuff the masks picks up people breathe in. I found the link Masks Do Not Work. Period.

Can you imagine people wearing these cloth masks as a means to stop these droplets? Though it should be thrown out due to bacteria etc.

I guess the argument would be better for public if we were highly populated. To be bluntly honest, I don't see not wearing a mask a 100% "will catch" the disease. Most people who get shortness of breath tend to recover.

COVID-19 cases, recoveries, and deaths | Statista

I know they said there are more deaths than this but I do see it in relation to the recover. Cases seem to be the highest. I'd have to dig of there is a source where the deaths (the worse of the illness) affects people to death bed. We have good knowledge on coronaviruses symptoms. Lung cancer seems to be a doozy. I wander how viruses compare to cancers.

But being confused and not wearing masks are two different things. Many people Are confused but does that mean they refuse to wear masks despite their opinions?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hm. I usually listen to the talks he gives on Youtube to the public so I can hear it from his mouth. Tweets and things like that are secondary resources, I guess one can say or third. Media I don't give time a day since they tend to be biased. I bet Trump, himself, isn't as bad as people say he is. Just I think he's not in an appropriate role to be president. I don't think people even liked him from the start. First impressions.

You're right, he's much worse.

That's according to most people who know him, worked with him, or are members of his family.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're right, he's much worse.

That's according to most people who know him, worked with him, or are members of his family.

I'm right? He's not as bad as people say he is?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actions save, opinions don't. I see freedom is justified to each person's right to feel and speak their mind about the situation. Emotions can make people turn on each other feeling they are morally justified in their responses. But I do believe freedom is a justified excuse. It doesn't excuse not wearing masks, social distancing, and washing hands (the actions) but the feelings and opinions makes sense.

I usually don't watch numbers. Seeing 6 million cases and such makes it seem more overblown. I'm not sure the criteria of why people believe all they see on tv but they do. If 5 people died, the disease will still be contagious. Death numbers for contagious illness just don't get me.

For some odd reason I have a hunch the cases will drop if Trump doesn't become reelected. Don't know why. Gut feeling.

Confusion is not an action. One person can be confused and the other person no. I know people wore masks long before it was required. People react to extreneous events differently.

The biggest ones I heard was freedom and political authority and mask marketing rather than confusion.

But the asymptomatic thing bothers me. We don't just wake up sick with one virus but need criteria to develop others. We breathe each other's air daily all our lives. The virus isn't a plague and isn't a gas. So, I can see how people see it doesn't work. It's for the sick and health professionals.

I finally found a link that have good reasons for not wearing masks. The author mentioned the N95s are meant (remembering off hand) goal is to filter out pathogens. They need to be replaced least every 30 some odd mins. If one wears it all the time all that stuff the masks picks up people breathe in. I found the link Masks Do Not Work. Period.

Can you imagine people wearing these cloth masks as a means to stop these droplets? Though it should be thrown out due to bacteria etc.

I guess the argument would be better for public if we were highly populated. To be bluntly honest, I don't see not wearing a mask a 100% "will catch" the disease. Most people who get shortness of breath tend to recover.

COVID-19 cases, recoveries, and deaths | Statista

I know they said there are more deaths than this but I do see it in relation to the recover. Cases seem to be the highest. I'd have to dig of there is a source where the deaths (the worse of the illness) affects people to death bed. We have good knowledge on coronaviruses symptoms. Lung cancer seems to be a doozy. I wander how viruses compare to cancers.

But being confused and not wearing masks are two different things. Many people Are confused but does that mean they refuse to wear masks despite their opinions?

You are discussing whether or not masks work. I was discussing why, other than by an extraordinary coincidence, Trump supporters tend to oppose masks.

These are two separate topics.

You cited “freedom” and “confusing messaging” as the reasons some Trump supporters have opposed masks. I say those reasons are disingenuous and I’ve already explained why. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actions save, opinions don't. I see freedom is justified to each person's right to feel and speak their mind about the situation. Emotions can make people turn on each other feeling they are morally justified in their responses. But I do believe freedom is a justified excuse. It doesn't excuse not wearing masks, social distancing, and washing hands (the actions) but the feelings and opinions makes sense.

I usually don't watch numbers. Seeing 6 million cases and such makes it seem more overblown. I'm not sure the criteria of why people believe all they see on tv but they do. If 5 people died, the disease will still be contagious. Death numbers for contagious illness just don't get me.

For some odd reason I have a hunch the cases will drop if Trump doesn't become reelected. Don't know why. Gut feeling.

Confusion is not an action. One person can be confused and the other person no. I know people wore masks long before it was required. People react to extreneous events differently.

The biggest ones I heard was freedom and political authority and mask marketing rather than confusion.

But the asymptomatic thing bothers me. We don't just wake up sick with one virus but need criteria to develop others. We breathe each other's air daily all our lives. The virus isn't a plague and isn't a gas. So, I can see how people see it doesn't work. It's for the sick and health professionals.

I finally found a link that have good reasons for not wearing masks. The author mentioned the N95s are meant (remembering off hand) goal is to filter out pathogens. They need to be replaced least every 30 some odd mins. If one wears it all the time all that stuff the masks picks up people breathe in. I found the link Masks Do Not Work. Period.

Can you imagine people wearing these cloth masks as a means to stop these droplets? Though it should be thrown out due to bacteria etc.

I guess the argument would be better for public if we were highly populated. To be bluntly honest, I don't see not wearing a mask a 100% "will catch" the disease. Most people who get shortness of breath tend to recover.

COVID-19 cases, recoveries, and deaths | Statista

I know they said there are more deaths than this but I do see it in relation to the recover. Cases seem to be the highest. I'd have to dig of there is a source where the deaths (the worse of the illness) affects people to death bed. We have good knowledge on coronaviruses symptoms. Lung cancer seems to be a doozy. I wander how viruses compare to cancers.

But being confused and not wearing masks are two different things. Many people Are confused but does that mean they refuse to wear masks despite their opinions?

By the way - an important reason Trump supporters are confused, is because Trump has horribly muddled the messaging. He has downplayed the virus. He’s undermined his own experts / task force. He said masks were important but then was slow to wear a mask. He had rallies in spite of lack of social distancing and didn’t require masks.

So of course Trump supporters are confused. Few others seem to be as confused as they are .... listening to the founder of Trump University a lot will do that to you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are discussing whether or not masks work. I was discussing why, other than by an extraordinary coincidence, Trump supporters tend to oppose masks.

These are two separate topics.

You cited “freedom” and “confusing messaging” as the reasons some Trump supporters have opposed masks. I say those reasons are disingenuous and I’ve already explained why. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I do disagree only because it makes sense as we are human. American culture is a freedom-cultured country and anything that imposes on that freedom by authorities (say political parties) will meet with confrontation. It seems like you're more blaming people for having natural feelings congruent to how humans naturally react to huge situations like this.

Of course confusing messages doesn't justify some people not wearing masks for whatever reason. It doesn't have to be confusing to you but to some people they were. Everyone's different. Why not give the benefit of that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

By the way - an important reason Trump supporters are confused, is because Trump has horribly muddled the messaging. He has downplayed the virus. He’s undermined his own experts / task force. He said masks were important but then was slow to wear a mask. He had rallies in spite of lack of social distancing and didn’t require masks.

So of course Trump supporters are confused. Few others seem to be as confused as they are .... listening to the founder of Trump University a lot will do that to you.

This kinda disproves your other point. People are confused and that's probably why wearing masks are more hesitant for some people than others. Confusion does, by it's nature, makes people skeptical. Maybe people wore mask earlier because they may know someone who has symptoms of the virus, medical professionals, or so have you. But in general, I feel the opinions are justified given people react differently to huge events like this.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This kinda disproves your other point. People are confused and that's probably why wearing masks are more hesitant for some people than others. Confusion does, by it's nature, makes people skeptical. Maybe people wore mask earlier because they may know someone who has symptoms of the virus, medical professionals, or so have you. But in general, I feel the opinions are justified given people react differently to huge events like this.

I think some are “confused” the way a teenager is confused about a stricter curfew they don’t like. E.g., Sheriffs in North Carolina and Arizona refusing to enforce mask orders aren’t “confused”. I think you have to admit this.

On the other hand, Trump’s handling of masks (like his handling of many things) has sown confusion. I would go further and call it a dog whistle to his base, just as he uses a dog whistle on issues of race, etc.

This article explains:
Unmasked: How Trump's mixed messaging on face-coverings hurt U.S. coronavirus response

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think some are “confused” the way a teenager is confused about a stricter curfew they don’t like. E.g., Sheriffs in North Carolina and Arizona refusing to enforce mask orders aren’t “confused”. I think you have to admit this.

On the other hand, Trump’s handling of masks (like his handling of many things) has sown confusion. I would go further and call it a dog whistle to his base, just as he uses a dog whistle on issues of race, etc.

This article explains:
Unmasked: How Trump's mixed messaging on face-coverings hurt U.S. coronavirus response

But let me ask. Why can't adults be confused as well?

This situation isn't like strict curfews or anything like that. It's very natural and human nature to have some confusion while learning new things about this virus. That just doesn't add up. "Adult" is relative really. Other than age, people act differently so I wouldn't consider that too much of a factor in confusion.

That... and the mixed messages wasn't a Trump thing more so than a CDC/WHO thing. The "facts" changed the more they learned about what they were dealing with. I don't think many will be confused with Trump because he doesn't make a sound example (both visual and knowledge) of medical advice.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But let me ask. Why can't adults be confused as well?

This situation isn't like strict curfews or anything like that. It's very natural and human nature to have some confusion while learning new things about this virus. That just doesn't add up. "Adult" is relative really. Other than age, people act differently so I wouldn't consider that too much of a factor in confusion.

That... and the mixed messages wasn't a Trump thing more so than a CDC/WHO thing. The "facts" changed the more they learned about what they were dealing with. I don't think many will be confused with Trump because he doesn't make a sound example (both visual and knowledge) of medical advice.

Adults can be confused but what we have seen from key decision makers in Trumpworld is more like a celebration of ignorance. To wit: the North Carolina Sherrifs I mentioned, plus the governors of Texas and Arizona. When Gov Abbott banned local ordinances requiring masks across the state, he didn’t do that because he was confused. He did it because Donald Trump, like an obese orange star, bends with his gravity the views of everyone in his orbit.

The pandemic is an evolving situation. The best public health recommendations in August are not the same as they were in March. They are going to continue changing as we reopen the economy. Some confusion is natural, but Trumpworld has been politicizing and warping everything unnecessarily.

Another example: Herman Cain. Remember him? Did you see the things he tweeted against masks and social distancing, as a form of support for Trump, before he died of COVID? There’s a difference between being confused, and actively sowing confusion; just as there is a difference between a drug user, and a drug pusher. Trumpworld has been the pusher.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But let me ask. Why can't adults be confused as well?

This situation isn't like strict curfews or anything like that. It's very natural and human nature to have some confusion while learning new things about this virus. That just doesn't add up. "Adult" is relative really. Other than age, people act differently so I wouldn't consider that too much of a factor in confusion.

That... and the mixed messages wasn't a Trump thing more so than a CDC/WHO thing. The "facts" changed the more they learned about what they were dealing with. I don't think many will be confused with Trump because he doesn't make a sound example (both visual and knowledge) of medical advice.

Did you read the article I posted? It documents what the Trump administration did and did not say about masks, and how that compares to public health experts. The facts speak for themselves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Did you read the article I posted? It documents what the Trump administration did and did not say about masks, and how that compares to public health experts. The facts speak for themselves.

I read it. Have to reread it. I don't take media as a resource for facts. Closest I get is listening to Trump himself talk. Verbal. Though media can slant what he says for their story.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I read your post the first time.



Do you have the post number of my laughing specifically of not caring about others and laughing at they are being put in danger?

It has to be direct statement.

I can't take your word for it knowing that it is not in myself and nature to do (to not care for others and laugh at them).

I already gave you the post so you could cluck the arrow and go back to my post that you rated funny.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I already gave you the post so you could cluck the arrow and go back to my post that you rated funny.

It has the laugh icon, your post, and mine. I don't see a post that I actually thought anything and anyone funny about the nature covid, it's effects, etc.

It has to be a fact not an inference. Are there other posts I wrote that backs up what you said?