The Meaning of Body Resurrection

[ayani]

Didn't Jesus say that his followers would have his same powers thru the Holy Spirit? If so, where are all the ministers that can raise people from the dead? Or was the supposed Jesus just kidding?

Jesus did promise that the Holy Spirit would work powerful signs through them.

and Acts does give at least two accounts of people being raised from the dead in Jesus' name.

i know healings do still occur in His name. i've heard stories of people being raised from the dead in this day and age, but i've never met anyone who has been raised form the dead, or able to raise others from the dead.

 

[Ben Masada]

well, ben, that's an interesting idea. and one i've heard about before. many people argue that Jesus couldn't have actually risen from the dead once killed- that He must have merely fainted, and then revived in the tomb.

yet the Gospel narratives do say that Jesus was killed, and then raised bodily from the dead, fully Himself, fully alive. the earliest fragment of a Gospel we have is a piece of John's Gospel, dating from 117-138 A.D. scholars believe this was the last Gospel written, so such an early fragment would indicate contemporary manuscripts of John as well as earlier manuscripts of earlier Gospels.

i do believe that God can bend and even break the laws He puts into place. after all, He is not defined by the universe- He created it, and exists outside of as well as within it. He parted the Red Sea for Moses, and through Elijah brought a boy back to life. i can't see why He wouldn't or couldn't raise a Man from the dead so that through Him, we too might live.

I do not support that he revived in the tomb. He revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to. I believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening, because at the end of that Sabbath, when Mary Magdalene went there to see the tomb, it was empty. And mind you that she had the same idea to remove Jesus from there as she declared it to be her idea. (John 20:15)

Now, if you read Acts 1:3, Luke says that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples for 40 days until he was gone, he would show himself to them with many convincing ways that he was alive AFTER HIS SUFFERING OR PASSION. It does not mean that he head died or much less resurrected. And the convincing ways were from being touched to eating and drinking just as he used to do before the crucifixion. Don't you find this odd?

I agree with you that God can do everything He wants or intend to do but one: What we want or wish He did. Why should have God done something just because someone wrote it in a book that he did?

 

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada
Body resurrection is the return to life of someone who has died. It's impossible for being against two kinds of laws: The first is natural laws. The second is Biblical laws.

God has established the natural laws, which have become the tools by which He governs the Universe. Any going against such laws, even by God Himself, would mean only weakness, for His having been unable to maintain order in the Universe.

Regarding Biblical laws, resurrection would only cause contradictions where Divine inspiration is claimed. Since God is not a God of confusion, resurrection must go and the Scriptures must be upheld.

The Scriptures are only too clear about dying and the impossibility to return. Some of the Biblical passages are: Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I am leaving Ecclesiastes out for being almost the whole book about the same issue: Against afterlife.

But then, what happened to Jesus that millions today believe he resurrected? He didn't. What happened to him was resuscitation. Resurrection was made up much later by Paul, about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If we read what he said to Timothy in his second Epistle 2:8, he connected the resurrection of Jesus to his own gospel. It means that there was another gospel at the time, which would not mention such a claim. It could only be the gospel of Jesus' disciples, who at the first indication of resurrection by the women, had considered their report as an ildle tale and nonsense. (Luke 24:11)

Then, we have Luke in Acts 1:1-3, saying that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, with many convincing evidences that he was alive in flesh and bone, Luke said, "after his passion or suffering," not after death or resurrection. Therefore, it does not mean at all that Jesus had died and resurrected. True that Luke contradicts himself later, but that's normal of the NT.

Ben

Then there is Peter the Jew, who has this to say in 1 Peter 3: 18-20; “For Christ died (Suffered) once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically (Body death), but made alive spiritually, and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits (Living spirits). These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building the boat etc."

Ben old mate, do you believe that spiritually, the mind of Jesus (Not the body) actually descended into the world of the dead and preached to them, or rather, that mentally, Jesus (The mind) descended along the genetic thread of life that joins the beginning to who I am, and merged with the mind of the great preacher Noah and from there preached the good news also to those who were disobedient in the days before the flood?

Prefaces to the Epistles of Peter in the New American version of the Bible confirm my views that Peter never wrote those Letters. Scholars claim that an anonymous author, perhaps the same who wrote the fourth gospel authored the Epistles that carry the name of Peter. Otherwise, why would a Nazarene like Peter write to the churches of Paul, and in the same Pauline style?

 

[S-word]

Quote...Ben... I do not support that he revived in the tomb. He revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to. I believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening, because at the end of that Sabbath, when Mary Magdalene went there to see the tomb, it was empty. And mind you that she had the same idea to remove Jesus from there as she declared it to be her idea. (John 20:15)

Fair dinkum, I've listened to some blokes who are experts in twisting and distorting the word of God, but you take the cake old mate.

Go back and re-read John 20: 15; Mary M who, with the other women had come with spices to prepare the body, has just discovered that the body of Jesus was missing from the tomb and believing that the person who she mistook for the gardener had removed the body to some other place she said to him, "Sir,tell me where you have put him and I will go (to the place that you have put him) and get him."

Because you are so ignorant to the truths revealed in scripture, it becomes necessary that you be guided, Mary had no idea of removing the body from the tomb, but to go to the place that she believed someone had taken it to, and to return it in order that the women might complete the unsavoury task of preparing the body, which task they had come to perform. Now can you understand that, or is that also too complicated for you?

As to the fact that you do not support that he revived in the tomb. And you believe that he revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to, of which you have no corroboration, and that you believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening, because at the end of that Sabbath, when the women went there to see the tomb, it was empty: and we who believe, know why it was empty.

This false belief of yours holds as much water as the one I heard from another person, who like yourself, denies God's word and substitutes their own made up rubbish in place of the truth recorded therein.

This other person claimed that Jesus was actually a man from the future who was chosen by the futuristic authorities to descend through time and relive the story of Jesus as recorded in scripture and immediatly after he had been placed in the tomb he was bodily transported back into the future where a crack medical team were waiting to revive him.

A week later he returned and revealed himself to the disciples, showing to them the wounds in his hands, feet and side. That person beleives that it was not Jesus who appeared to the disciples who were locked in a dimly room on the evening after the tomb was found to be empty, but was in fact, Thomas Didymus (The Twin) Jude, a half brother to Jesus who held a striking resemblance to him, and was the only disciple of the 12 who was not present that evening.
Like you, he made this up, rather than accept the truth as revealed in the scriptures.

 

[Ben Masada]

Quote...Ben... I do not support that he revived in the tomb. He revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to. I believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening, because at the end of that Sabbath, when Mary Magdalene went there to see the tomb, it was empty. And mind you that she had the same idea to remove Jesus from there as she declared it to be her idea. (John 20:15)

Go back and re-read John 20: 15; Mary M who, with the other women had come with spices to prepare the body, has just discovered that the body of Jesus was missing from the tomb and believing that the person who she mistook for the gardener had removed the body to some other place she said to him, "Sir,tell me where you have put him and I will go (to the place that you have put him) and get him."

How about you going back to John 20:15 yourself and then change your mind about the other women with the spices to prepare the body? There were no other women and there were no spices. Mary had gone alone and about her intentions, it's not hard at all to speculate. She had everything in mind but resurrection. Why would she at the empty tomb think only that someone had removed the body? Because she had never heard about resurrection from the lips of Jesus.

Because you are so ignorant to the truths revealed in scripture, it becomes necessary that you be guided, Mary had no idea of removing the body from the tomb, but to go to the place that she believed someone had taken it to, and to return it in order that the women might complete the unsavoury task of preparing the body, which task they had come to perform. Now can you understand that, or is that also too complicated for you?

No, what is complicate here is the most fraudulent joke I have ever heard. She came to prepare the body for what, if the tombstone was sealed and the soldiers were there to prevent the approach of any suspect? This is an insult to even your own intelligence to think that we would bet our faith on that.

As to the fact that you do not support that he revived in the tomb. And you believe that he revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to, of which you have no corroboration, and that you believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening, because at the end of that Sabbath, when the women went there to see the tomb, it was empty: and we who believe, know why it was empty.

Why was it empty? Can you provide us with an eyewitness to tell us how the tomb was empty?

This false belief of yours holds as much water as the one I heard from another person, who like yourself, denies God's word and substitutes their own made up rubbish in place of the truth recorded therein.

You talk about rubbish after what you said above about the women with spices, when there was only Mary, and to prepare Jesus' body for God knows what! Those women you are talking about would have first to knock the soldiers down and break the seal on the stone to get to Jesus. Do you have another solution for them to get to Jesus? It's embarrassing for lack of a better word.

 

[S-word]

Quote...Ben... How about you going back to John 20:15 yourself and then change your mind about the other women with the spices to prepare the body? There were no other women and there were no spices.

The four gospels were written by four different scribes, who recorded to the best of their ability, the story of the life of Jesus as it had been handed down to them. Each scribe emphasising that which they deemed to be important, or ignoring that which they saw as being irrelevant according to their point of view.

A detective who would see only one statement from four witnesses as being the truth and reject the other three as incorrect because they are slightly different, is a fool and has little chance of ever coming to the truth. The wise detective on the other hand, who realises that all four witnesses have told the truth as they saw it according to their individual perspective, will eventually solve the mystery.

And so, to a foolish person I would say, John does not say that no other women were with Mary Magdalene, it is simply that he was more interested in the fact that Mary Magdalene was the first to recognise the supposed gardener as the risen Jesus who appeared to the women, who Matthew, Mark and Luke, verify had come to the tomb with spices, to prepare the body of Jesus.

But if you think that the other three gospel scribes cannot be trusted to be telling the truth, then please show to us where In the Gospel of John is it said that soldiers were placed at the entrance of the tomb?

John says nothing about the soldiers at the tomb, neither does Luke or Mark, and the fact that you believe that soldiers were placed there, confirms that you believe the account according to Matthew who states also, that Mary Magdalene was NOT the only woman who went to the tomb on the third day from the crucifixion of Jesus.

If Matthew, Mark and Luke are to be rejected because they do not agree with John, who does not mention the other women who came with Mary Magdalene, will you now expect me to accept that Mark, Luke and John, cannot be trusted to tell the truth because they do not mention that guards were placed at the tomb as was recorded by Matthew?

Because you do believe Matthew’s statement that guards had been placed at the tomb, then you must also believe Matthew, who said that the guards were only required to remain there until the third day after Jesus had been crucified, which was the day when the women came with spices and who would have been justified in believing that the guard would have by then been removed.

But of course, the gospel of Matthew which you have shown that you believe, states that an earthquake had caused the stone to have been rolled away and the terrified guards on discovering that the tomb was empty, had fled.

Quote...Ben... She had everything in mind but resurrection. Why would she at the empty tomb think only that someone had removed the body? Because she had never heard about resurrection from the lips of Jesus.

It is more than possible that Mary Magdalene who was one of the many women who followed and cared for the needs of Jesus and his disciples out of their own expenses, could have heard Jesus speak of the resurrection, but according to the truth as revealed in the holy scriptures, the disciples certainly did, and yet like the disciples, Mary would not have understood the reality of what he was saying until after he had been risen from death.

Quote...Ben... No, what is complicate here is the most fraudulent joke I have ever heard. She came to prepare the body for what, if the tombstone was sealed and the soldiers were there to prevent the approach of any suspect? This is an insult to even your own intelligence to think that we would bet our faith on that.

Knowing from the truth as revealed in the holy scriptures, that the guard was to remain at the tomb only until the third day, It would be an insult to any persons intelligence to believe that the women with spices who came with Mary Magdalene, on the third day after their Lord had been crucified, would not have expected to be allowed to carry out the burial requirements of the Jews of those days.

Those cracks appear to be widening, be careful Ben and stay away from any hammers.

Quote...Ben... I do not support that he revived in the tomb. He revived somewhere else where Joseph of Arimathea took him to. I believe that Joseph removed him from that tomb in the first hours of that Friday evening

Why do you attempt to insult the intelligence of your readers? Do you honestly expect them to beleive that the guards would not have checked that the body of Jesus was in the tomb before it was sealed and protected by them until the earthquake had rolled the stone away and revealed the tomb to be empty? What utter rubish you come up with sometimes.

 

[logician]

Let's face it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever been raised from the dead.

 

[S-word]

Let's face it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever been raised from the dead.

When it is finally proven that this living universal body which began as an infinitely hot, infinitely dense and infintesimally small primordial atom which burst forth with a terrific bang, will on day be condensed back into that from which it has originated, only to burst forth once again to continue on in its eternal process of evolution, you will have to change your tune; but until then, believe as you will.

The nights and days of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day’ that is a period of universal activity, which is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

This view of an eternal oscillating universe is not only held by the Hindu and many from the scientific community, but it is also held by many, many Christians who see the six days of creation as six periods of universal activity and that those universal bodies were the generations of the universe that led to the body in which a mind capable of comprehending mind, had evolved.

Origen, who was well versed in the writings of Enoch the anointed one, was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

If this umiversal body in which you have evolved and which body is destined to roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise as the universal elements burn and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the seemingly bottomless pit, is to be resurrected from that great abyss to continue on in its eternal evolution, you who are part and parcel of that body, must also be resurrected.

 

[Ben Masada]

Quote...Ben... How about you going back to John 20:15 yourself and then change your mind about the other women with the spices to prepare the body? There were no other women and there were no spices.

The four gospels were written by four different scribes, who recorded to the best of their ability, the story of the life of Jesus as it had been handed down to them. Each scribe emphasising that which they deemed to be important, or ignoring that which they saw as being irrelevant according to their point of view.

Ben: Do you know how we call this in Hebrew? Balagan. Incomprehensive confusion. A bunch of contradictions. A spider's web after a day of torrential rain.

A detective who would see only one statement from four witnesses as being the truth and reject the other three as incorrect because they are slightly different, is a fool and has little chance of ever coming to the truth. The wise detective on the other hand, who realises that all four witnesses have told the truth as they saw it according to their individual perspective, will eventually solve the mystery.

Ben: Yes, but you guys call this inspired Word of God. What kind of spirit inspired such a balagan?

And so, to a foolish person I would say, John does not say that no other women were with Mary Magdalene, it is simply that he was more interested in the fact that Mary Magdalene was the first to recognise the supposed gardener as the risen Jesus who appeared to the women, who Matthew, Mark and Luke, verify had come to the tomb with spices, to prepare the body of Jesus.

Ben: S-Word, it doesn't help, you are on a head-on collision with an iceberg. You'll better off stopping before it's too late.

But if you think that the other three gospel scribes THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET. Therefore let all the house of israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucifiedcannot be trusted to be telling the truth, then please show to us where In the Gospel of John is it said that soldiers were placed at the entrance of the tomb?

Ben: See what I mean? How many tombs with Jesus were there? The one of Matthew had soldiers, the one of John did not have any. You remind me of the infant Jesus of Luke back to Nazareth when he was 40 days old, while the one of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die. Is there any worse balagan?

John says nothing about the soldiers at the tomb, neither does Luke or Mark, and the fact that you believe that soldiers were placed there, confirms that you believe the account according to Matthew who states also, that Mary Magdalene was NOT the only woman who went to the tomb on the third day from the crucifixion of Jesus.

Ben: Isn't something to make anyone with the minimum of commonsense to give up? It's even embarrassing for lack of a better word.

If Matthew, Mark and Luke are to be rejected because they do not agree with John, who does not mention the other women who came with Mary Magdalene, will you now expect me to accept that Mark, Luke and John, cannot be trusted to tell the truth because they do not mention that guards were placed at the tomb as was recorded by Matthew?

Ben: Okay, do you want to stay with Matthew? You are going to fall in the same balagan. The women went there with spices to anoint the body of Jesus. How, if the guards were there to prevent the approach of anyone and the stone was sealed? After hitting the iceberg with John, you haven't learned to avoid another with Matthew.

Because you do believe Matthew’s statement that guards had been placed at the tomb, then you must also believe Matthew, who said that the guards were only required to remain there until the third day after Jesus had been crucified, which was the day when the women came with spices and who would have been justified in believing that the guard would have by then been removed.

Ben: As I can see, you are a cat with nine lives. Jesus was taken to the tomb in the evening of Friday, which was already Sabbath according to Judaism. At the end of that Sabbath Mary Magdalene went to the Tomb area and find the tomb empty. How do you see three days and three nights according to Matthew 12:40? You are trapped S-Word, and the more you struggle to get free, the more you get stuck.

But of course, the gospel of Matthew which you have shown that you believe, states that an earthquake had caused the stone to have been rolled away and the terrified guards on discovering that the tomb was empty, had fled.

Ben: Nice try S-Word, because Matthew says that an angel came down from heaven and removed the stone himself and said to the women, I know you are looking for Jesus, as you can see, he is not here. (Mat. 28:1-6) The angel removed the stone and saw that the tomb was empty. What else do you have up your sleeves?

It is more than possible that Mary Magdalene who was one of the many women who followed and cared for the needs of Jesus and his disciples out of their own expenses, could have heard Jesus speak of the resurrection, but according to the truth as revealed in the holy scriptures, the disciples certainly did, and yet like the disciples, Mary would not have understood the reality of what he was saying until after he had been risen from death.

Ben: Nevertheless, the disciples considered the news about the resurrection as nonsense and an idle tale. (Luke 24:11) Then, you say, "according to the truth as revealed in the Holy Scriptures." What Scriptures are you talking about? It can't be the NT because it appeared 50+ years later. If it is the Tanach, can you tell me where is it written? I mean, if you are still there.

Why do you attempt to insult the intelligence of your readers? Do you honestly expect them to beleive that the guards would not have checked that the body of Jesus was in the tomb before it was sealed and protected by them until the earthquake had rolled the stone away and revealed the tomb to be empty? What utter rubish you come up with sometimes.

Ben: Pilate's order to seal the stone and set the guards in the tomb area was to the priests and not to the guards. The soldiers had no interest in checking anything. And the priests would by no mean enter a tomb on the Sabbath, especially if there was a dead man inside. Are you still standing there or you have collapsed by now?

 

[Ben Masada]

Let's face it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever been raised from the dead.

Way to go Logician. I agree with your Logic.

 

[S-word]

Quote...Ben...: S-Word, it doesn't help, you are on a head-on collision with an iceberg. You'll better off stopping before it's too late.

S-word: You should study your geography better old mate, we don’t get no icebergs floating around up here in north Queensland Australia. And besides that, for the message of Christ the source of our salvation and the earthly image of God our saviour, I burn with a passion so fierce that any iceberg that could ever get close to me, would be reduced to a puddle of water at my feet.

Quote...Ben: Do you know how we call this in Hebrew? Balagan. Incomprehensive confusion. A bunch of contradictions. A spider's web after a day of torrential rain.

S-word: Yes I knew that Ben, but that aint half as bad as the words used by others who like yourself are so blinded by hatred for Christ and his message as revealed through the gospels and the writing of his apostles.

Quote...Ben: See what I mean? How many tombs with Jesus were there? The one of Matthew had soldiers, the one of John did not have any.

S-word: No Ben old mate, you’ve got the bull by the udder again haven’t you? If all four gospel writers were to record in absolute detail the life of Jesus, they would all be exactly the same and only one gospel would suffice. But as I had said previously, each scribe recorded their story according to their own particular view point.

The fact That John mentions only one of the women, who after the Sabbath which was the second day that Jesus had been dead, came to the tomb early on the third day after Jesus had died, which you believe was at 3 PM on Friday the first day of his death, this is not evidence that Matthew, Mark and Luke who record the names of the other women who were with Mary Magdalene, are wrong. And the fact that Matthew, when speaking of the same tomb as mentioned by Mark, Luke and John, is the only one who bothered to mention that guards had been placed there, this again, is not evidence that Mark, Luke and John were wrong to have not mentioned the guards, wake up to yourself Ben.

Quote... Ben: You remind me of the infant Jesus of Luke back to Nazareth when he was 40 days old, while the one of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die. Is there any worse balagan?

It's your own balagan Ben, because the Bible states that after Mary had perfomed the ceronomy of purification 33 days after the circumsision of her child, they returned to Nazareth (See Luke) which was spitting distance of the nothern town of Bethlehem and Sepporhus in which many families lost their lives in 4 B.C., when Jesus was about 2 years old before the family was forced to flee into Egypt just after they had been visited by the wise men who told Herod that they first saw the star that they believed had heralded the birth of the prophesied Messianic King of Israel, two years previously. (see Matthew)

Quote...Ben: Okay, do you want to stay with Matthew? You are going to fall in the same balagan. The women went there with spices to anoint the body of Jesus. How, if the guards were there to prevent the approach of anyone and the stone was sealed? After hitting the iceberg with John, you haven't learned to avoid another with Matthew.

S-word: As I have stated previously, The Bible says that they were only to remain there until the third day, the day on which the women arrived at the tomb without the guards who had ran away when the angel used an earthquake to open the tomb. By the way Ben, when the adversary of Job killed all his children, did he personally murder them with his own hands, or like the agent of God who removed the stone from the tomb, did he use some force of nature to achieve his purpose? What’s this little puddle of water at my feet? If you had any commonsense at all, you would give up your attack on God’s Holy Word.

Quote...Ben: As I can see, you are a cat with nine lives. Jesus was taken to the tomb in the evening of Friday, which was already Sabbath according to Judaism. At the end of that Sabbath Mary Magdalene went to the Tomb area and find the tomb empty. How do you see three days and three nights according to Matthew 12:40? You are trapped S-Word, and the more you struggle to get free, the more you get stuck.

S-word: Already explained that old mate, over 12 hours (The 12 hours of darkness) of the third day that Jesus had been dead, had already elapsed when the women arrived at the empty and unguarded tomb. Me trapped? Nah Ben, it is you who are trapped by your own hatred of the recorded life of Jesus Christ the source to God our saviour.

Quote...Ben: Nevertheless, the disciples considered the news about the resurrection as nonsense and an idle tale. (Luke 24:11)

S-word: Until he appeared bodily before them as they cowered in the darkened room.

Quote...Ben: Then, you say, "according to the truth as revealed in the Holy Scriptures." What Scriptures are you talking about? It can't be the NT because it appeared 50+ years later. If it is the Tanach, can you tell me where is it written? I mean, if you are still there.

S-word: Do you honestly believe that the five Books of Moses were actually written by himself while wandering through the wilderness, or like the greater majority of Biblical scholars, do you believe that they were handed down orally through the generations and finally recorded by scribes when the wars and conflicts associated with the conquest of the land of Canaan had ceased?

Quote...Ben: Pilate's order to seal the stone and set the guards in the tomb area was to the priests and not to the guards. The soldiers had no interest in checking anything. And the priests would by no mean enter a tomb on the Sabbath, especially if there was a dead man inside. Are you still standing there or you have collapsed by now

S-word: You must learn to read with a greater understanding of what you are reading Ben. It wasn’t Pilate’s order to have the tomb sealed; it was a pleading request from the snivalling hypocritical priests who had demanded the death of Jesus, for a guard of Roman soldiers to be placed at the tomb, which Pilate finally allowed. And you insult the intelligence of your readers, who, knowing that a Roman soldier convicted of dereliction of duty could face the death sentence, would believe for one moment that those Roman soldiers would not have assured themselves that the body of Jesus which they were commissioned to protect from robbers, was there in the tomb before it was sealed.

My dear brother Ben, I have absolute faith that the flaming hatred that burns within you and threatens to consume your very soul, will one day be extinguished and you will finally know peace.

 

[gzusfrk]

Let's face it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever been raised from the dead.

That one carpenter guy 2 3000 years ago,seems little over 1billion people disagree with you.I know your going to say "evidence" and we'll say the Word is our evidence.

 

[Ben Masada]

S-word: You should study your geography better old mate, we don’t get no icebergs floating around up here in north Queensland Australia. And besides that, for the message of Christ the source of our salvation and the earthly image of God our saviour, I burn with a passion so fierce that any iceberg that could ever get close to me, would be reduced to a puddle of water at my feet.

Ben: Jesus was not the earthly image of God, because God has no image. God is incorporeal.

S-word: Yes I knew that Ben, but that aint half as bad as the words used by others who like yourself are so blinded by hatred for Christ and his message as revealed through the gospels and the writing of his apostles.

Ben: There are no writings of Jesus' Apostles in the NT. When the Fathers of the Church selected the books of many that there were, to enter the Canon of the NT, all the writings of the Nazarenes were censored and rejected due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings which were not controversial to Paul's.

S-word: No Ben old mate, you’ve got the bull by the udder again haven’t you? If all four gospel writers were to record in absolute detail the life of Jesus, they would all be exactly the same and only one gospel would suffice. But as I had said previously, each scribe recorded their story according to their own particular view point.

Ben: If it's so, why would Luke declare to Theophilus that he Luke had recorded ALL about Jesus since his birth till the end of his life if he ignored Jesus in Egypt, the slaughter of the children, the guards at the tomb, etc, etc? (Acts 1:1) Or those things never happened or Luke was lying.

The fact That John mentions only one of the women, who after the Sabbath which was the second day that Jesus had been dead, came to the tomb early on the third day after Jesus had died, which you believe was at 3 PM on Friday the first day of his death, this is not evidence that Matthew, Mark and Luke who record the names of the other women who were with Mary Magdalene, are wrong.

Ben: Now, you hold your horses because I never said that I believe Jesus died at 3PM on Friday. You said so. I rather believe that he survived the cross and left Israel after he recovered from his brutal suffering at the hands of the Romans.

And the fact that Matthew, when speaking of the same tomb as mentioned by Mark, Luke and John, is the only one who bothered to mention that guards had been placed there, this again, is not evidence that Mark, Luke and John were wrong to have not mentioned the guards, wake up to yourself Ben.

Ben: Gee! I wonder why the women were worried about who would remove the stone for them and none worried about how to get through the guards. Give up S-Word, can't you see how ridiculous you are becoming every time you try to cover your nakedness with a fig leaf?

It's your own balagan Ben, because the Bible states that after Mary had perfomed the ceronomy of purification 33 days after the circumsision of her child, they returned to Nazareth (See Luke) which was spitting distance of the nothern town of Bethlehem and Sepporhus in which many families lost their lives in 4 B.C., when Jesus was about 2 years old before the family was forced to flee into Egypt just after they had been visited by the wise men who told Herod that they first saw the star that they believed had heralded the birth of the prophesied Messianic King of Israel, two years previously. (see Matthew)

Ben: You can't be serious! The Joseph and Mary of Matthew never lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born. They lived in Judea. When Herod died and they left Egypt, they were afraid to return to Judea because of Archelaus had succeeded Herod, then they decided to go to Galilee. The one of Luke yes, they always lived in Nazareth. Aren't you embarrassed?

S-word: As I have stated previously, The Bible says that they were only to remain there until the third day, the day on which the women arrived at the tomb without the guards who had ran away when the angel used an earthquake to open the tomb.

Ben: And when the angel opened the tomb, what did he say to the women? "I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here." Even the angel cannot be an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection, because when he rolled the tombstone away, the tomb was already empty. Really embarrassing!

S-word: Do you honestly believe that the five Books of Moses were actually written by himself while wandering through the wilderness?

Ben: No, I don't. They were written many years later, almost sure by Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel. As you can see, I don't deny the truth as you do that the gospels were written from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone, and by Gentiles, disciples of Paul

My dear brother Ben, I have absolute faith that the flaming hatred that burns within you and threatens to consume your very soul, will one day be extinguished and you will finally know peace.

Ben: Let me tell you why you keep saying all the time throughout your post that I hate Jesus, I hate God's Word and that hatred burns within me: Because you are frustrated with embarrassment and feel forced to keep fabricating reasons for the contradictions of the NT that I am sure you don't believe them yourself. Quit man, after knowing that there is a way out you will never have peace within.

 

[Ben Sinai]

What I read and can gather thus far from the teachings of Mr. Masada is there is no resurrection therefore when we die that is it. There is no eternal life or any kingdom that we that have lived our lives righteously will be rewarded with. We will just be dead. That Yah is not all powerful and has no power over what He Himself has created but is bound by their rules and not that of His own. That Yah is little more than a puppet to His own creations. That even holds true with rabbinical thought that what they say is over that of Yah's word. They believe that man is higher than his creator. They say man is higher than Yah. They use their own logic and thoughts to deduce the word of Yah rather than simply reading what is before their carnal and mortal eyes. They twist and malign. Distort and confuse. They force the blinders on those that they would see destroyed by following their discourse to the udder ends of the world. Why then must we have Torah? Why must we seek meekness and righteousness? Why must we even believe in Yah Himself? What difference does it all matter if there be nothing left? And yet they claim to be a chosen people. For what purpose? If there is nothing left but death then it is all a lie. I seek rather life by way of the blood of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Dawid as promised by my Father and Creator. The one that fashioned all that your eye can behold and all that it cannot. The one that set the boundaries of the oceans that the water may not exceed but yet He lifted those boundaries for a time in the day of Noach which shows that He is over that which He created and has control of all things. To listen to such garbage as has been spewed by this “OP” would count one as one that would believe that Yah be a El of the dead and not that of the living. I don’t know about you people but I choose LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[S-word]

Quote...Ben: Jesus was not the earthly image of God, because God has no image. God is incorporeal.

S-word...John 14: 9; “whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

Quote...Ben: There are no writings of Jesus' Apostles in the NT. When the Fathers of the Church selected the books of many that there were, to enter the Canon of the NT, all the writings of the Nazarenes were censored and rejected due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings which were not controversial to Paul's.

S-word...Peter, Paul, James, John and Jude, whose writings can be read in the Bible, are all apostles of Jesus, irrelevant to your mistaken and false beliefs.

Quoted by S-word: No Ben old mate, you’ve got the bull by the udder again haven’t you? If all four gospel writers were to record in absolute detail the life of Jesus, they would all be exactly the same and only one gospel would suffice. But as I had said previously, each scribe recorded their story according to their own particular view point.

Quote...Ben: If it's so, why would Luke declare to Theophilus that he Luke had recorded ALL about Jesus since his birth till the end of his life if he ignored Jesus in Egypt, the slaughter of the children, the guards at the tomb, etc, etc? (Acts 1:1) Or those things never happened or Luke was lying.

S-word...Luke when speaking to Theophilus states he had studied the written reports of many people who had done their best to record the events of the life of Jesus. Which writings, by which people, who had done their best to record those events as they remembered them, did Luke study?

Quote...Ben: Now, you hold your horses because I never said that I believe Jesus died at 3PM on Friday. You said so. I rather believe that he survived the cross and left Israel after he recovered from his brutal suffering at the hands of the Romans.

S-word...No Ben, what I said was, that you, not I, believed that it was 3 PM on Friday when he died, check it out mate, but I forgot for a moment that you don’t believe the Bible which states that Jesus died at 3 PM, but you did say that his body was laid in the tomb late in the day on which he was crucified which day 1, you seem to believe was a Friday. And rather than believe God’s Holy Word, you like to make up your own uncorroborated story that he recovered from the brutal suffering demanded by the hypocritical Jewish authorities who used the sinful soldiers of Rome, to carry out their demands and kill the source to our saviour God, as Peter, an apostle of Christ Jesus is recorded to have said in acts 2: 23, of God’s holy Word.

Quote...Ben: Gee! I wonder why the women were worried about who would remove the stone for them and none worried about how to get through the guards. Give up S-Word, can't you see how ridiculous you are becoming every time you try to cover your nakedness with a fig leaf?

S-word...To begin with, fig leaves don’t grow that big Ben old mate, but besides that I stand naked before the whole world, and confess that I believe the spirit of what is written in the Old and New Testaments of God’s Holy Word, unlike others who refuse to reveal themselves and are continually creating new and uncorroborated verbal facades to hide their true self.

Quote...Ben: You can't be serious! The Joseph and Mary of Matthew never lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born. They lived in Judea. When Herod died and they left Egypt, they were afraid to return to Judea because of Archelaus had succeeded Herod, then they decided to go to Galilee. The one of Luke yes, they always lived in Nazareth. Aren't you embarrassed?

S-word...And where does it say in Matthew that THEY lived in Judea?

It is said in the gospel of Matthew, that Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea and this is corroborated by Luke who is the only other gospel writer to bother recording the physical birth of Jesus who became the Son of God, being born of the spirit when He rose from the Baptismal waters and was filled with the spirit of the Lord as the voice from heaven was heard to say, “You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, This day I have begotten thee.” See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3:22.

But if as you say, Joseph and Mary lived in Judea, why then does Luke 2: 4; state that Joseph went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to the town of Bethlehem of Judea where Mary’s first son was born as verified by Matthew. Even though John mentions the name of only one of the women that went to the tomb, a point that you continually harp on, John reveals that others were with her, when it is said in John 20: 2; Mary Magdalene went running to peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and she said to them, “They have taken the Lord from the tomb, and WE don’t know where they have put him,” WE, referring to the other women who Matthew, Mark and Luke, reveal were there on that morning. Aren’t you beginning to get embarrassed in revealing your lack of knowledge as to what is written in God’s Holy Word?

Joseph may have later lived in Judea, possibly even in the town of Arimathea, but his betrothed who was the daughter of Heli who had also sired the biological father of Jesus, who was Joseph the Levite from Cyprus, lived in the town of Nazareth close to the magnificent Hellenistic city of Sepphorus to where they had returned 40 odd days after the birth of her first son, and to where nearly two years later, the wise men would be led by the comet of 5 B.C., in its return to the orbit of Jupiter, which comet would appear to “Stand Over” with its massive vertical tail streaming up into the heavens and pointing to the house in which the almost two year old child then lived.

Quote...Ben: And when the angel opened the tomb, what did he say to the women? "I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here." Even the angel cannot be an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection, because when he rolled the tombstone away, the tomb was already empty. Really embarrassing!

S-word...Unlike yourself who represents the foolish detective who accepts only one record of the four witnesses as being the truth and claiming that the other three must therefore be lying, I will represent the wise detective who accepts that all four witnesses have recorded what they believe to be the truth from their own particular viewpoint.

John who mentions the name of only one of the women who went to the tomb, makes no mention of any guards being present and says that when the women got there the stone had already been removed and the tomb was empty. Similarly, Luke also makes no mention of the guards being present when the women got there only to find that the stone had been removed and the body of the Lord was missing.

Likewise, Mark makes no mention of the guards and states that the stone had already been removed and the body of the Lord was gone, but that a young man in a white robe was there and that he spoke to the women. Whether or not that young man had witnessed the resurrection, is not mentioned.

Knowing from Mark, Luke and John, that there were no guards, in the morning when the women arrived at the opened tomb in which the body of the Lord was missing, we can now read Matthews account in the light of the other three witnesses. The women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and who were obviously being accommodated in the house of Lazarus in the town of Bethany, went to look at the tomb early on Sunday morning when the earthquake occurred that God’s agent used to remove the stone, and while the women were going there, the terrified guards had already gone into the city of Jerusalem and reported to the priests who had demanded the death of Jesus, everything that had happened, and on arriving at the unguarded tomb, the women found that the stone had already been rolled away and the body of the Lord was missing, while an angel in dazzling apparel spoke to them and told them that Jesus had risen. Again it is not mentioned whether the angel witnessed the resurrection or not.

 

[S-word]

Quoted by S-word: Do you honestly believe that the five Books of Moses were actually written by himself while wandering through the wilderness?

Quote...Ben: No, I don't. They were written many years later, almost sure by Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel. As you can see, I don't deny the truth as you do that the gospels were written from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone, and by Gentiles, disciples of Paul

S-word...Wooh back there matey, I have always known and accepted that the gospels were written long after the death and resurrection of Jesus, and that apart from the Gospel of John which were his written words that were later transcribed by others, the other three gospels were written by men such as Luke who studied the writings of others who had done their best to record the life of Jesus as they remembered it.
These were stories that had been circulating throughout the fledgling Christian movement for many years, and knowing full well that the books of Moses were written many, many hundreds of years after the events written therein, I could not understand why you believe that the gospels which were written only a few short years after Jesus, could not be relied upon to contain the truth.

Quote...Ben: Let me tell you why you keep saying all the time throughout your post that I hate Jesus, I hate God's Word and that hatred burns within me: Because you are frustrated with embarrassment and feel forced to keep fabricating reasons for the contradictions of the NT that I am sure you don't believe them yourself. Quit man, after knowing that there is a way out you will never have peace within.

S-word...I’m only stating the obvious Ben; you yourself reveal that burning hatred with your venomous attacks on the New Testament and it is not I who am frustrated with embarrassment; I merely reveal the truth that is written in God’s Holy Word. It is you who are the one that is fabricating uncorroborated lies such as “Jesus did not die, and was not resurrected” and that Joseph stole the body from the tomb on Friday night, before the guards would have checked next day that the body was still there before they sealed the tomb in which lay the BODY they were commissioned to guard against robbers.

 

[S-word]

What I read and can gather thus far from the teachings of Mr. Masada is there is no resurrection therefore when we die that is it. There is no eternal life or any kingdom that we that have lived our lives righteously will be rewarded with. We will just be dead. That Yah is not all powerful and has no power over what He Himself has created but is bound by their rules and not that of His own. That Yah is little more than a puppet to His own creations. That even holds true with rabbinical thought that what they say is over that of Yah's word. They believe that man is higher than his creator. They say man is higher than Yah. They use their own logic and thoughts to deduce the word of Yah rather than simply reading what is before their carnal and mortal eyes. They twist and malign. Distort and confuse. They force the blinders on those that they would see destroyed by following their discourse to the udder ends of the world. Why then must we have Torah? Why must we seek meekness and righteousness? Why must we even believe in Yah Himself? What difference does it all matter if there be nothing left? And yet they claim to be a chosen people. For what purpose? If there is nothing left but death then it is all a lie. I seek rather life by way of the blood of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Dawid as promised by my Father and Creator. The one that fashioned all that your eye can behold and all that it cannot. The one that set the boundaries of the oceans that the water may not exceed but yet He lifted those boundaries for a time in the day of Noach which shows that He is over that which He created and has control of all things. To listen to such garbage as has been spewed by this “OP” would count one as one that would believe that Yah be a El of the dead and not that of the living. I don’t know about you people but I choose LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed! For if the dead are not raised to life, then let us "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die," which were the satirical words as written by the great King Solomon, who by his songs(song of songs), Parrables (Proverbs), dark speeches (The Wisdom of Solomon), and Satires ( Ecclesiastes the satirical work of Solomon aimed at those who believed in neither life after death or the resurrection) didst cause astonishment to the peoples! see Sirach 47: 17. Who can read the negitive and even depressing words in Ecclesiastes without realising that it is a satirical look into the minds of they who do not believe in life after the first death, the physical death?

"Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing."

 

[Ben Masada]

What I read and can gather thus far from the teachings of Mr. Masada is there is no resurrection therefore when we die that is it. There is no eternal life or any kingdom that we that have lived our lives righteously will be rewarded with. We will just be dead. That Yah is not all powerful and has no power over what He Himself has created but is bound by their rules and not that of His own. That Yah is little more than a puppet to His own creations. That even holds true with rabbinical thought that what they say is over that of Yah's word. They believe that man is higher than his creator. They say man is higher than Yah. They use their own logic and thoughts to deduce the word of Yah rather than simply reading what is before their carnal and mortal eyes. They twist and malign. Distort and confuse. They force the blinders on those that they would see destroyed by following their discourse to the udder ends of the world. Why then must we have Torah? Why must we seek meekness and righteousness? Why must we even believe in Yah Himself? What difference does it all matter if there be nothing left? And yet they claim to be a chosen people. For what purpose? If there is nothing left but death then it is all a lie. I seek rather life by way of the blood of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Dawid as promised by my Father and Creator. The one that fashioned all that your eye can behold and all that it cannot. The one that set the boundaries of the oceans that the water may not exceed but yet He lifted those boundaries for a time in the day of Noach which shows that He is over that which He created and has control of all things. To listen to such garbage as has been spewed by this “OP” would count one as one that would believe that Yah be a El of the dead and not that of the living. I don’t know about you people but I choose LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Readers of this forum, I am sure you are all intelligent people. After you read this post above, I hope you have been able to see and understand the fallacy of serving God for reward in an afterlife.

Read every sentence, and see that every sentence is based on the infamous statement, "What there is in there for me?" The author even comes down to the shameful level to imply that if all that there is, is this life to live, "why must we even believe in Yah Himself?" I even doubt if he believes in God at all.

I should not wonder about such attitudes after the Pauline condition of resurrection to serve God. Here is a paraphrase of what Paul meant in I Corinthians 15:32. I am ready to serve God, but if the dead won't resurrect, forget it! I'll rather eat and drink for tomorrow we die. This promise to serve God and the conditions stipulated in the post above are worthy menstrual rags.

I tell you something. I don't believe in heaven or hell, but if I am mistaken and they exist, I bet you my word that the people God would send to hell will be those who profess to serve Him only if there is something in there for them. And to Heaven only those who don't care and serve God only for the reward to serve Him.

And for my last thing to say, I am sorry for Ben Sinai.

 

[Ben Masada]

Quoted by S-word: Do you honestly believe that the five Books of Moses were actually written by himself while wandering through the wilderness?

Quote...Ben: No, I don't. They were written many years later, almost sure by Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel. As you can see, I don't deny the truth as you do that the gospels were written from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone, and by Gentiles, disciples of Paul

S-word...Wooh back there matey, I have always known and accepted that the gospels were written long after the death and resurrection of Jesus, and that apart from the Gospel of John which were his written words that were later transcribed by others, the other three gospels were written by men such as Luke who studied the writings of others who had done their best to record the life of Jesus as they remembered it.
These were stories that had been circulating throughout the fledgling Christian movement for many years, and knowing full well that the books of Moses were written many, many hundreds of years after the events written therein, I could not understand why you believe that the gospels which were written only a few short years after Jesus, could not be relied upon to contain the truth.

Quote...Ben: Let me tell you why you keep saying all the time throughout your post that I hate Jesus, I hate God's Word and that hatred burns within me: Because you are frustrated with embarrassment and feel forced to keep fabricating reasons for the contradictions of the NT that I am sure you don't believe them yourself. Quit man, after knowing that there is a way out you will never have peace within.

S-word...I’m only stating the obvious Ben; you yourself reveal that burning hatred with your venomous attacks on the New Testament and it is not I who am frustrated with embarrassment; I merely reveal the truth that is written in God’s Holy Word. It is you who are the one that is fabricating uncorroborated lies such as “Jesus did not die, and was not resurrected” and that Joseph stole the body from the tomb on Friday night, before the guards would have checked next day that the body was still there before they sealed the tomb in which lay the BODY they were commissioned to guard against robbers.

Okay, so why don't you solve this problem once and for all by proving to me that Jesus resurrected? Open your own NT and show me an eyewitness. Just don't come to me saying that this has to be accepted by faith, because this sounds like poppycock to me. I am asking you to prove it to me in your NT and you can't. No other Jew would dare to challenge you that far. I do. Prove it to me and we will be worshipping the same God, whether He be One or Three.

 

[Ben Masada]

S-word...John 14: 9; “whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

This means that you cannot think.

S-word...Peter, Paul, James, John and Jude, whose writings can be read in the Bible, are all apostles of Jesus, irrelevant to your mistaken and false beliefs.

Read the prefaces to those Letters in New American Catholic Version of the Bible. Unknown authors wrote those Letters and entitled them with the names of the Apostles.

S-word...Luke when speaking to Theophilus states he had studied the written reports of many people who had done their best to record the events of the life of Jesus. Which writings, by which people, who had done their best to record those events as they remembered them, did Luke study?

You are trying to rewrite Luke in the hope that I am a fool. Nice try fella, but you missed the target.

S-word...No Ben, what I said was, that you, not I, believed that it was 3 PM on Friday when he died, check it out mate, but I forgot for a moment that you don’t believe the Bible which states that Jesus died at 3 PM, but you did say that his body was laid in the tomb late in the day on which he was crucified which day 1, you seem to believe was a Friday. And rather than believe God’s Holy Word, you like to make up your own uncorroborated story that he recovered from the brutal suffering demanded by the hypocritical Jewish authorities who used the sinful soldiers of Rome, to carry out their demands and kill the source to our saviour God, as Peter, an apostle of Christ Jesus is recorded to have said in acts 2: 23, of God’s holy Word.


S-Word, stop trying to empt the ocean with bucket into a hole on the beach. You will never be able to fix Matthew 12:40 about those three days and three nights. Quit man, the days of miracles are gone. You can't make one here.

S-word...To begin with, fig leaves don’t grow that big Ben old mate, but besides that I stand naked before the whole world, and confess that I believe the spirit of what is written in the Old and New Testaments of God’s Holy Word, unlike others who refuse to reveal themselves and are continually creating new and uncorroborated verbal facades to hide their true self.

Why should you keep striking the wind with your sword? It won't help you, I am telling you.

S-word...And where does it say in Matthew that THEY lived in Judea?

Here is what it says in Matthew 2:21,22 - "Joseph got up, took his child and his mother, and returned to the Land of Israel. As he heard, however, that Archealaus had succeeded his father Herod as King of Judea, he was afraid to go back there. Instead, because of a warning received in a dream, Joseph went to the region of Galilee." Now, if you find in Matthew that Joseph and Mary came from Nazareth to Bethlehem, I give you my word that I'll become one like you.

But if as you say, Joseph and Mary lived in Judea, why then does Luke 2: 4; state that Joseph went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to the town of Bethlehem of Judea where Mary’s first son was born as verified by Matthew.


Keep going.. keep asking... you are on the right track to discover things. Welcome to the realm of contradictions.


Joseph may have later lived in Judea, possibly even in the town of Arimathea, but his betrothed who was the daughter of Heli who had also sired the biological father of Jesus, who was Joseph the Levite from Cyprus, lived in the town of Nazareth close to the magnificent Hellenistic city of Sepphorus to where they had returned 40 odd days after the birth of her first son, and to where nearly two years later, the wise men would be led by the comet of 5 B.C., in its return to the orbit of Jupiter, which comet would appear to “Stand Over” with its massive vertical tail streaming up into the heavens and pointing to the house in which the almost two year old child then lived.

Okay, you can also keep rewriting your speculations in the hope to find a way out and you will gett lost on a double.