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The Mental Illness Question

picnic

Active Member
It's interesting that, in conversations I've had with close friends who have experienced depression, almost everyone seems to point to a single, persistent issue that was troubling them that they felt they needed to come to terms with in order to overcome their "depression". On the contrary, however, clients and people who I am not as familiar with are often a lot cagier regarding the issue and claim not to know the cause and simply accept it as a chemical imbalance that needs to be corrected. Maybe it has something to do with introspection and an ability to identity the material issue if there actually is one.
I agree somewhat, but in my case I am not aware of any single issue causing my depression. If there is a single issue, it is probably something I see as immutable and endemic to my life. IDK

My depression is different from most people, because it comes and goes - sometimes in an instant. When I'm depressed, I can't make decisions and small difficulties seem insurmountable. For example, I might decide to buy a soda. Then I think about the calories. Then I decide to buy the soda anyway. Then I think about the calories. I might sit there for 30 minutes unable to move except for little twitches. I start to move and then I might start staring blankly at a paperclip on my desk. That's how depression usually feels for me, and it can continue for several days... Then all of the sudden it goes away, and I can move and make decisions like a normal person.

Whenever I come out of depression, it surprised me how different it feels to have that burden removed. It's actually frightening, because when I'm depressed I can't conceive of being normal.

Anyway, the difference between depression and normalcy is like black and white. Depression isn't simply a result of unaddressed problems. IMO

EDIT: Also depression probably includes lots of different problems with different causes. Probably 50 years from now "depression" and the "antidepressants" of today will look as silly as bleeding people for whatever ails them.
 

picnic

Active Member
@psychoslice , do you agree that there are similarities between psychosis and drugs? Also, can you remember your experience of oneness properly after the experience, or is it merely words now?

To be honest, it has always made me angry when people compare psychosis and drugs. I don't think they are comparable and it minimizes what psychosis is like. FWIW (I'm not claiming to be an expert on either experience of course.)
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
@psychoslice , do you agree that there are similarities between psychosis and drugs? Also, can you remember your experience of oneness properly after the experience, or is it merely words now?

To be honest, it has always made me angry when people compare psychosis and drugs. I don't think they are comparable and it minimizes what psychosis is like. FWIW (I'm not claiming to be an expert on either experience of course.)
No I haven't ever taken drugs except for just smoking dope, the remembrance in Consciousness is strange to explain, its like you have found all that is needed to be known, but can't put words to. Ever since that experience I have never been the same, yes everything is the same, but now there is no clinging to anything, the mind body organism is here, but its not mine, in fact its non of my business, its lived through by the Source, and its outcome is whatever this mind body is conditioned to or programed, and of course whatever gens its born with, I am just here for the ride letting whatever happens, happen, it is total freedom.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I stand by what I've said earlier:
The neurophysiology isn't understood by anybody (neuroscientists like me, neurologists like some I've worked with, psychiatrists, clinical psychologists, etc.). All mental health diagnoses are necessarily based on symptoms because there is no possible way to identify any feature of any mental disorder that can reliably serve as a basis for diagnoses. There are tons of papers, books, talks, videos, pamphlets, etc., on how certain neurotransmitters, neurological structures, etc., are supposed to be indicative of particular mental disorders. However, large numbers of those who have these disorders don't have these, many do who have no mental disorders, and there is no way of determining whether mental disorders cause neurophysiological changes rather than the reverse anyway.

I'm not saying there isn't a cause. Of course there is a cause. I believe I've already expressed that I think many who develop what end up being diagnosed as mental disorders have a predisposition that is biologically-based. The biopsychosocial models of mental disorders don't assert that mental health issues are "all in then head" or that one can "just snap out of it", nor do I. It is simply that psychiatry is using a model that isn't helping those who suffer from mental health issues because they are using a diagnostic model taken from mainstream medicine during a time when psychiatrists were increasingly considered not to be practicing medicine. The hope was that we'd learn more about the underlying pathologies of various psychiatric diagnoses such that we wouldn't have to rely on symptom-defined "diseases". After 40 years and plenty of evidence to the contrary, continuing to pretend that each diagnosis corresponds to a specific, unique pathology is not just baseless but utterly unwarranted. But this isn't just a matter of bad science: it means seriously hindering the development of better treatment, policies, and practices to help those who are suffering from very real mental health problems.
“there is no established specific physical basis to psychiatric disorders. Biochemical theories about the origins of psychiatric disorders, such as the dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia and the monoamine theory of depression, were themselves derived from the selected actions of drugs that were already thought to be specific. Therefore these theories assume that drugs act in a disease-centred fashion and do not, in themselves, provide any evidence that this is so. Reliable evidence, independent of drug effects, that particular biochemical states gave rise to particular psychiatric conditions is required to provide evidence of the disease-centred action of drugs.”
Moncrieff, J. (2008). The Myth of the Chemical Cure: A Critique of Psychiatric Drug Treatment. Macmillan.

See also (just for some edification) the following:
Breggin, P. R. (1991). Toxic Psychiatry. St. Martin's Press.
Healy, D. (2002). The creation of psychopharmacology. Harvard University Press.
Kiesler, D. J. (2000). Beyond the Disease Model of Mental Disorders. Praeger.
Moncrieff, J. (2008). The myth of the chemical cure: A critique of psychiatric drug treatment. Macmillan.
Paris, J. (2008). Prescriptions for the mind: A critical view of contemporary psychiatry. Oxford University Press.
Tamminga, C. A., Sirovatka, P. J., Regier, D. A., & Van Os, J. (2009). Deconstructing psychosis: refining the research agenda for DSM-V. American Psychiatric Association.
Wright, R. H., & Cummings, N. A. (Eds.). (2005). Destructive Trends in Mental Health: The Well Intentioned Path to Harm. Routledge.
In the 70s and early 80s, right before a little known manual called the DSM (then on its 2nd edition), came out with its 3rd edition that created mental illnesses on the basis of statistical classification and clustering of symptoms, psychiatrists were considered a joke by other doctors. Too many were still doing therapy, relied on Freudian-based psychodynamic theories, didn't use any of their medical training, etc., they came under attack from three sides.

First, there were other doctors and potential doctors. The medical sciences had long since moved to a biomedical diagnostic model. Psychiatrists had couches and knew less about the physiological make-up and dynamics of the brain than various non-medical doctorates. Pre-med students weren't going into psychiatry and other doctors didn't consider psychiatrists any different than various other mental health workers.

That's where the 2nd attack came from. Despite the fact that Freud saw no need for psychoanalysts to have the medical background he did, nonetheless psychiatrists had for decades been medical doctors who didn't practice medicine. As a result, social workers and clinical psychologists argued that any pride-of-place granted psychiatrists by their medical background was irrelevant. Psychiatric research itself and psychiatric practice demonstrated how little what psychiatrists did was "medicine". So other mental health workers became a serious economic (as well as academic/research) threat to psychiatry.

Finally, there were the insurance companies. Before the DSM-III, mainstream psychiatric theories frequently held that mental health existed along a continuum and wasn't a matter of discrete diagnoses or disorders. This meant that insurance companies had no recourse when they were called to pay for therapy sessions, as they couldn't depend upon professionals to tell them what conditions were or weren't medical. After all, even schizophrenia (a disorder one would think clearly distinguishable from mood disorders) was so confused with bipolar disorders that US and UK psychiatrists tended to diagnose both oppositely.

So, an elect few among psychiatrists created the biomedical model. The idea was mainly to regain respect from other doctors, regain supremacy, and save their profession. This wasn't, however, a selfish, economic move (at least not mostly). Feighner, Spitzer, etc., really believed in the biomedical model. However, those who drafted and made the diagnostic "bible" of mental disorders didn't have any biological basis for their classification system. So they developed strict criteria based upon symptoms that ensured their internal reliability by e.g., including as a diagnostic criterion for X disorder that it couldn't be Y disorder: thus two disorders which often presented nearly identically could not, according to psychiatry, be conflated because they were defined as distinct, thus any failures in inter-rater reliability were the fault of the practitioner. The diagnostic model ensured that while there could be (and was and is) unbelievably prevalent co-morbidity, every diagnosis had a discrete, specific underlying pathology.

The hope was that we would find the evidence for underlying biological mechanisms by which psychiatrists could use the kinds of tests all other doctors do for differential diagnoses. Instead, we found that the brain was far more plastic than thought, that neurotransmitters first identified and first said to cause disorders like schizophrenia or major depression were implicated in virtually the entire range of diagnoses and in symptoms independent of particular diagnoses (such as anxiety). The Human Genome Project proved underwhelming and epigenetics has replaced it, and once again psychiatry is far behind the other medical sciences, neurosciences, etc.

etc.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
@psychoslice
To be honest, it has always made me angry when people compare psychosis and drugs. I don't think they are comparable and it minimizes what psychosis is like. FWIW (I'm not claiming to be an expert on either experience of course.)

Not all drugs. Psychedelics in particular enable a person to simulate virtually any experience a human can have with the only limitation being the limitations that are unique to an individual person's capacity; just about every emotion, thought processes, memory regression, transcendence, ego dissolving and being reformed into any assembly of atoms in the universe, synaesthesia or even complex psychophysical reactions become a possibility. The comparison is in no way meant to be condescending or diminishing the experience. Psychedelics just make perception of anything a possibility; others (alcohol, speed, coke, etc) are basically just enjoyably self-indulgent cul-de-sacs.
 

picnic

Active Member
Not all drugs. Psychedelics in particular enable a person to simulate virtually any experience a human can have with the only limitation being the limitations that are unique to an individual person's capacity; just about every emotion, thought processes, memory regression, transcendence, ego dissolving and being reformed into any assembly of atoms in the universe, synaesthesia or even complex psychophysical reactions become a possibility. The comparison is in no way meant to be condescending or diminishing the experience. Psychedelics just make perception of anything a possibility; others (alcohol, speed, coke, etc) are basically just enjoyably self-indulgent cul-de-sacs.
Hmmm. I've heard that about psychedelics, but they never affected me in that way. I've wondered if the same neurology that has made me prone to depression might have made me experience psychedelics differently than my friends. I never saw the appeal of all that. Everybody is different I guess. :)
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
@allfoak Can I just say that yes "normal" is subjective but various cultures still recognise mental illness when someone behaves in the way that is not in sync with the rest of culture and in a way they seem to not be able to control.
Eg if someone is meant to become "possessed" according to a certain drum beat but then behave out of the ordinary in other situations when they are not meant to, everyone else will recognise that there may be something wrong with the person.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
Very sad but true; I have an horrible seasonal depression; the depression of autumn/winter( even at 50 degress celcius!!) . Yesterday,it peaked again.If I had a gun available next to me yesterday,probably I would be something on obituary pages.

I know that I am mentally ill and I cannot be cured ,that's for sure. Probably I will be the killer of myself,just not sure when I will be brave enough to.

I never liked myself,and I will never.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
If a person is functionally abnormal then awesome. If that person is experiencing dysfunction, they should be helped. To me it's simple.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
If a person is functionally abnormal then awesome. If that person is experiencing dysfunction, they should be helped. To me it's simple.
Really? Do you really believe that self hate (which is definitely a medical illness in the medical catalogue )can be cured,really honestly I am asking? My grand-grand parents,grand parents,aunties,uncles,father,par alliance relatives are all medical professionals which means I cannot be out of a reach of medicine or professional help.

All medicines about mental problems just postpone the day you gonna kill yourself. They only make you sleep and cause loss of memory. Vodka does the same easier .

Do you know how many times I spitted on the mirror in the bathroom,just because I hate to see my face on the mirror? Do you know how I feel terrified and angry if I see myself by chance on a sort of glaze ?

Help? No thank you,coz you can't.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It's funny, I also usually feel I'm just postponing my own suicide, that we can't really help people. Then I help people. It's weird. A lot has to do with perception, and the patient really must be willing to be involved in their own healing.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
It's funny, I also usually feel I'm just postponing my own suicide, that we can't really help people. Then I help people. It's weird. A lot has to do with perception, and the patient really must be willing to be involved in their own healing.

Pls try to get along with my medical knowledge on this subject.First of all anything that cannot be proved will never take place in medicine,that's for sure,just look up a good dictinary,it will tell you. ''The will'' you mentioned above has nothing to do with science,because it cannot be weighed or measured.

So,think again; my, e.g. toothache has nothing to do with my will but mental problems?

There is nothing called '' will'' in medicine. Sorry,if I made you feel disappointed.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Pls try to get along with my medical knowledge on this subject.First of all anything that cannot be proved will never take place in medicine,that's for sure,just look up a good dictinary,it will tell you. ''The will'' you mentioned above has nothing to do with science,because it cannot be weighed or measured.

So,think again; my, e.g. toothache has nothing to do with my will but mental problems?

There is nothing called '' will'' in medicine. Sorry,if I made you feel disappointed.

What the hell are you talking about?
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
Hmmm. I've heard that about psychedelics, but they never affected me in that way. I've wondered if the same neurology that has made me prone to depression might have made me experience psychedelics differently than my friends. I never saw the appeal of all that. Everybody is different I guess. :)

The only thing I can think of is that I've been told (and I think I remember reading something with a verified source somewhere) that there are certain types of anti-depressants that have a side-effect of interfering with the ways in which psychedelics work. I remember when I was 19, I tripped with a group of people and, while most of us had these profound experiences, there was one girl who reported zero effects despite taking as much as us. Later I found out that she had been on some AD which more or less served to prevent the experience. I know this is not a side effect that would deserve to be on the AD's label but it might shed some light.

That being said, I find it wild that psychoslices's posts in this thread seem to be pinpoint accurate accounts that could easily be translated into the experience of a psychedelic or the ways in which a person might offer some verbal retrospective summary of the experience. Some of the stuff psychoslice has posted, I've actually heard people and myself use those words nearly verbatim to describe it. Then again, it could just be a reflection of similarly directed concepts brought about by obsessive thinking regarding the nature of perceiving reality.
 
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Timothy Bryce

Active Member
Really? Do you really believe that self hate (which is definitely a medical illness in the medical catalogue )can be cured,really honestly I am asking? My grand-grand parents,grand parents,aunties,uncles,father,par alliance relatives are all medical professionals which means I cannot be out of a reach of medicine or professional help.

All medicines about mental problems just postpone the day you gonna kill yourself. They only make you sleep and cause loss of memory. Vodka does the same easier .

Do you know how many times I spitted on the mirror in the bathroom,just because I hate to see my face on the mirror? Do you know how I feel terrified and angry if I see myself by chance on a sort of glaze ?

Help? No thank you,coz you can't.

Maybe the solution is to look beyond the health care industry to iron out your issues. I've definitely seen people who have benefited from engagement with professional mental health treatment but, given the individual nature of the issue, doctors/psych's will always have to employ subjective and pseudo-scientific methods in order to address the issue that the person is consulting them for. It can work, but it's definitely not for everyone.

I think what 1137 was trying to explain to you is that you are actually in control of your own mind no matter how difficult it may seem to reign in your emotional temperaments. I understand the feeling of self-hatred, suicidal ideation and nihilism and I know what an incredibly "trapped," myopic frame of mind that it places you in; it's not a criticism of you personally, it's just an account of the facts.

I'd suggest that, if you consider heavy alcohol use to be a useful tool in blotting out misery and postponing suicide, maybe go full measure and see what you can achieve by experimenting with artificially and naturally induced states of mind that you may not have considered yet (such as illegal drug use, travelling to places that you might get a kick out of, and promiscuous sex - if you have trouble getting laid the classical way, there's nothing wrong with prostitutes, it's just a different ball game). Maybe even punch some random person in the face in front of their friends and family just to get that adrenaline going and to experience the novelty of what might happen. Who cares about any moral structure? You're a nihilistic, alcoholic suicide candidate - what do you have to lose? Weirdly, there's a part of me that deeply envies your nihilistic attitude because I've been there before and - trust me - it enables you to go on an awesome ride while you assume a sense of reckless self abandonment. Whatever happens happens - but I guarantee, you'll feel like a better person once you come out of it. It's not always a weakness - it can be a strength that others who aren't in the same place as you can't comprehend or endorse because it would screw THEM up; this makes you the boss of your own situation. Misery is also a place which doesn't have to be permanent.

Soon you'll realize just how much power you actually have over literally everything and you'll arrive at the revelation that you're not alone in pain, but a small bump on a literal ocean of people, plants, animals, rocks, colours, music, orgasms, economies, etc that you're intrinsically connected to and are forever changing and at the whim and tress of your own perception of it which, as I said before, is your responsibility and only your responsibility; everything you could ever want to be or need, you already are and have. Once you put in the effort to enable yourself believe this: you, quite literally, become "the master of the universe" so to speak - because it cannot exist without you.

Going back to 1137's point though; it is you that has to make the first step. What are you afraid of? Dying?
 
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picnic

Active Member
The only thing I can think of is that I've been told (and I think I remember reading something with a verified source somewhere) that there are certain types of anti-depressants that have a side-effect of interfering with the ways in which psychedelics work. I remember when I was 19, I tripped with a group of people and, while most of us had these profound experiences, there was one girl who reported zero effects despite taking as much as us. Later I found out that she had been on some AD which more or less served to prevent the experience. I know this is not a side effect that would deserve to be on the AD's label but it might shed some light.

That being said, I find it wild that psychoslices's posts in this thread seem to be pinpoint accurate accounts that could easily be translated into the experience of a psychedelic or the ways in which a person might offer some verbal retrospective summary of the experience. Some of the stuff psychoslice has posted, I've actually heard people and myself use those words nearly verbatim to describe it. Then again, it could just be a reflection of similarly directed concepts brought about by obsessive thinking regarding the nature of perceiving reality.
I've heard the same thing about antidepressants interfering with psychedelics. I wasn't taking any medications at the time when I experimented with LSD, but I have wondered if there is something different about the chemistry of my brain that causes me to be depressed and also to not experience LSD normally. Every time I took LSD, I felt so yucky and depressed that I wished I could remember so that I would never take it again.

The most profound experience I ever had was under influence of carrots believe it or not. :) I was extremely depressed and ate a whole bag of carrots before curling up on the floor of a motel room. Then I had this dream that was like a flashbulb in this world and an eternity in the afterlife. I thought I saw God and I no longer fear death like I used to. Of course I'm an atheist now, so I don't know how to rationalize the experience. I feel that I already died briefly in a way, and I know what is there.
 

Noa

Active Member
I have sort of been avoiding this thread besides my one little comment. After rereading the original post, I think I have come up with a way to participate comfortably. The Good Doctor, you are welcome to send me a PM if you wish to have another person to ask questions about their experiences with mental illness. For some reason I am unable to really participate much in this broad of a thread.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
I have sort of been avoiding this thread besides my one little comment. After rereading the original post, I think I have come up with a way to participate comfortably. The Good Doctor, you are welcome to send me a PM if you wish to have another person to ask questions about their experiences with mental illness. For some reason I am unable to really participate much in this broad of a thread.

I won't be so obnoxious so as to assume the reasons behind your post. I understand that, for some, mental health is even more of a difficult issue to discuss than religious and philosophical considerations because the opinions are rooted in something that is literally inescapable (as opposed to theoretically inescapable). As a natural consequence, I think it's even more difficult to render a response to this thread that isn't somewhat cynical due to the nature of the topic; that's what makes it so hot to discuss: essentially noone is wrong.

That said, I respect your discreteness about the issue because I think it reflects a careful and longstanding consideration. I welcome any private PM you feel the need to offer privately as I would consider it to be just as valid as anything stated in this thread.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Pls try to get along with my medical knowledge on this subject.First of all anything that cannot be proved will never take place in medicine,that's for sure,just look up a good dictinary,it will tell you. ''The will'' you mentioned above has nothing to do with science,because it cannot be weighed or measured.

So,think again; my, e.g. toothache has nothing to do with my will but mental problems?

There is nothing called '' will'' in medicine. Sorry,if I made you feel disappointed.

Your will determines if you do anything about your toothache or not. It is, very much so, a thing in medicine, at least in psychology.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
I have sort of been avoiding this thread besides my one little comment

I am sorry if i in some way prevented you from participating because of my negative remarks concerning psychiatry.

I do not think that people are being helped and i am very vocal about it.
Sorry
 
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