The Messianic verses of Isaiah

[Dawnofhope]

Why do any of these refer to the second coming and not the first? Where do any of these quotes suggest there will be a second coming?

Because if Jesus really did fulfil prophecies, as Christians believe, He did not fulfil these verses. I have provided verses that He allegedly did fulfil.

We've already established the language concerning 'second coming' is Christian, albeit based on a belief in the Hebrew bible.

To prove or disprove the concept of 'second coming' essentially hinges on proving or disproving that Jesus was who He said He was.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do any of these refer to the second coming and not the first? Where do any of these quotes suggest there will be a second coming?

It could be argued that the OT prophets predicted the Jewish people would reject their Messiah.

God who knows everything clearly foresaw HIs chosen people would reject Him. He foresaw this as revealed through the prophet Isaiah 8:15-16

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."

The Apostle Paul referred to this stumbling block to the Jews as follows:

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9

Jesus of course made clear He knew the Jews would reject Him when He prophesized the destruction of the Temple and warned His followers to flee Judea:

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Matthew 24:1-2

"Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" Matthew 24:16

Another verse in the OT is Zechariah 14:1-8

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

You would need to appreciate that the verse prophesises Jesus standing on Mount of Olives, which He did during His final sermon and the two mountains refer to Judaic and Christian Covenants.

 

[fantome profane]

Because if Jesus really did fulfil prophecies, as Christians believe, He did not fulfil these verses. I have provided verses that He allegedly did fulfil.

We've already established the language concerning 'second coming' is Christian, albeit based on a belief in the Hebrew bible.

To prove or disprove the concept of 'second coming' essentially hinges on proving or disproving that Jesus was who He said He was.

I think Jay was right to begin with. You presume too much.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think Jay was right to begin with. You presume too much.

Perhaps.

The starting point for me is the latest revelation from God. For me that is Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i revelation. Taking a step back, that means accepting the revelation from Christ, and before that the revelation from Moses.

For Jay, it is a belief of God and that he has made Himself Known through Moses and the OT prophets. He rejects Jesus fulfilled anything in the OT. So our starting point needs to be a shared understanding of what we both believe in.

You are an atheist and I'm good with that. The starting point for our discussion is a willingness to be reasonable and courteous. I've had no problem with what you've had to say and hope it goes both ways.

I'm happy to discuss further but if not, thank for the time to contribute to this thread.

 

[wizanda]

Do you believe the verses could me metaphorical, or do they need literal interpretation? Perhaps its both.

Think everything should use a form of PARDES...We need to be able to look at everything in all angles; it is like looking at a dice, and saying we only see one.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Think everything should use a form of PARDES...We need to be able to look at everything in all angles; it is like looking at a dice, and saying we only see one.

I agree with all angles and dice analogy. Its a real problem when these verses are viewed too literally.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Think everything should use a form of PARDES...We need to be able to look at everything in all angles; it is like looking at a dice, and saying we only see one.

How does the return of Christ sit with your theology?

 

[wizanda]

Its a real problem when these verses are viewed too literally.

Don't see that being the problem, as i like firm evidence the same; it is when the presuppositions, get in the way of rational exegesis.

How does the return of Christ sit with your theology?

Isaiah 53 states a second coming, as 'he shall share his inheritance with the strong' (Isaiah 53:12).

It isn't my theology firstly; yet do spend a long time trying to understand it precisely based on what is stated over the whole cannon.

Can show multiple events with Isaiah, that take time, for the nation to be cut off, exiled, made a curse...

Then after the Tribulation, the remnant to return, the king to reign for ever, no longer death, no ravenous animals.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Don't see that being the problem, as i like firm evidence the same; it is when the presuppositions, get in the way of rational exegesis.

I believe the Jewish scholars take this approach and will conclude there is no evidence in any of the Tanakh that supports Jesus as a Messiah.

Isaiah 53 states a second coming, as 'he shall share his inheritance with the strong' (Isaiah 53:12).

In regards to Isaiah 53, Christians will see it as referring to Christ, Jews as the Nation of Israel. I agree it could also refer to the second coming. It is like the dice you refer to. I like you analogy of a jig saw puzzle when unravelling the mysteries of Isaiah.

"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

 

[wizanda]

I believe the Jewish scholars take this approach

So far on examining their work, find flaws in logical thinking; as they've got private ends to serve...

So for instance, they're not going to say the Abrahmic covenant got nullified, Judah and Israel divorced them selves, for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11); as they've got to much riding on it.

there is no evidence in any of the Tanakh that supports Jesus as a Messiah.

We should use his name Yeshua (salvation H3444) in Isaiah, as it is often metaphoric; as he would've seen the roots of his name there.

Thus Isaiah 52:10 has Yeshuat Eloheinu, which is saying 'we shall see the Salvation of our God'; yet it also implies, Yeshua is an Elohim, who is seen by the world (also found in Psalms 98).

The 'arm' referenced in Isaiah 52:10, is also found in Isaiah 53:1; clearly indicating Yeshua is the Suffering Servant in-between.

Jews as the Nation of Israel.

This to me that idea is sick, it is like saying the Jews have to be tortured, put to death, as some form of atonement....Clearly biased exegesis.

Whereas when it is Yeshua, that is Divine Salvation being murdered; which is slightly more contextually making sense, for the nation to be cut off after.

Especially if you comprehend that Zechariah 11, and Isaiah 53 sound the same, he was abhorred/despised by the leaders, and then put to death.

Isaiah 49:6-7 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel? I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation (Yeshua) to the end of the earth.” (7) Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, says to him whom man despises (Isaiah 53:3), to him whom the nation abhors (Zechariah 11:8), to a servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and rise up (Isaiah 52:15); princes, and they shall worship; because of Yahweh who is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

 

[Dawnofhope]

So far on examining their work, find flaws in logical thinking; as they've got private ends to serve...

So for instance, they're not going to say the Abrahmic covenant got nullified, Judah and Israel divorced them selves, for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11); as they've got to much riding on it.

It is certainly true that the Jews did not do what God asked and instead committed abominations. God's displeasure and wrath are palpable in Zechariah 11. The Covenant was broken Zechariah 11:10 and only a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) could restore it. It was only when Daniel prayed on behalf of his people Daniel 9, that he made clear what would happen to bring an end to the iniquities and when this would happen Daniel 9:24-27.

We should use his name Yeshua (salvation H3444) in Isaiah, as it is often metaphoric; as he would've seen the roots of his name there.

Thus Isaiah 52:10 has Yeshuat Eloheinu, which is saying 'we shall see the Salvation of our God'; yet it also implies, Yeshua is an Elohim, who is seen by the world (also found in Psalms 98).

The 'arm' referenced in Isaiah 52:10, is also found in Isaiah 53:1; clearly indicating Yeshua is the Suffering Servant in-between.

Yes that is the first coming clearly, but could not also refer to the second coming?

Isaiah 49:6-7 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel? I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation (Yeshua) to the end of the earth.” (7) Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, says to him whom man despises (Isaiah 53:3), to him whom the nation abhors (Zechariah 11:8), to a servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and rise up (Isaiah 52:15); princes, and they shall worship; because of Yahweh who is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

Its good to have someone who has an understanding of these verses contributing to this thread. Thank you.

 

[wizanda]

Yes that is the first coming clearly, but could not also refer to the second coming?

Yeshua has been given a new name in Revelations, thus him being manifest as 'salvation' isn't the case in the 2nd coming; it is more as a sickle to cut down (Isaiah 34:2) or as a lion, basically as a final judgement against the nations of the world.

Jeremiah 31:31

Read the whole chapter, and it is clear this is referring to after the Tribulation; where all the families of Israel return, and everyone knows God globally i.e. the Messianic age.

Thank you.

It is good answering the questions, helps test if we can explain it properly.

 

[wizanda]

second coming?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

These chapters are about the 'Day of the Lord' Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 13:6-9, Isaiah 34:8, Isaiah 24:21

 

[roger1440]

That's a little pessimistic

Jesus the Christ
- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.
- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide. His religion is the most widespread on the planet with 2.2 billion adherents worldwide (cf 14,000,000 Judaism). Recognised to be the awaited Messiah in the Hebrew Bible by His followers. Is considered by Islam (1.6 billion adherents) as being one of God’s important prophets.
- "Son of God"
- Questionable descent through male lineage to any physical kings and no known children.
- Earthly parents humble Godly people.

I'm neither a Christian or Muslim. Why do you think so many people have got it wrong?

You describe it like a nice family Disney movie. In reality if the spread of Christianity was depicted in a movie it would be beyond the boundaries of any horror movie and band in every country on the planet. Those who refused to convert were burned alive, torn apart by wild beasts; the list goes on and on. Jesus can not take credit for the rise of Christianity. He was long dead and did not torture people. According to the Gospels he was a religious leader. And who were these people? They were a small group of country bumpkin Jews who probably couldn’t read or write. The point is they could not have written the Gospels.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You describe it like a nice family Disney movie. In reality if the spread of Christianity was depicted in a movie it would be beyond the boundaries of any horror movie and band in every country on the planet. Those who refused to convert were burned alive, torn apart by wild beasts; the list goes on and on. Jesus can not take credit for the rise of Christianity. He was long dead and did not torture people. According to the Gospels he was a religious leader. And who were these people? They were a small group of country bumpkin Jews who probably couldn’t read or write. The point is they could not have written the Gospels.

A problem is that all the Christians I know have chosen to become Christians. They are generally intelligent, well educated, thoughtful people. They love to learn about the bible and apply the teachings to their life. None have become Christians as a result of torture or coercion. In fact many of the early Christians made great sacrifices to spread the gospels, and were themselves persecuted, killed, or tortured for their faith.

Who wrote the gospels is another story. John and Matthew were probably eye witness accounts but I appreciate the uncertainty and no one knows for sure.

 

[roger1440]

A problem is that all the Christians I know have chosen to become Christians. They are generally intelligent, well educated, thoughtful people. They love to learn about the bible and apply the teachings to their life. None have become Christians as a result of torture or coercion. In fact many of the early Christians made great sacrifices to spread the gospels, and were themselves persecuted, killed, or tortured for their faith.

Who wrote the gospels is another story. John and Matthew were probably eye witness accounts but I appreciate the uncertainty and no one knows for sure.

Go back to the Christians who choose to be Christians ask them if they had a Christmas tree and an Easter basket when they were a young child. Chances are they were brought up in a Christian home. I know very well there are people who sacrifice their life for what they believe in. The Twin Towers used to be outside my window.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Go back to the Christians who choose to be Christians ask them if they had a Christmas tree and an Easter basket when they were a young child. Chances are they were brought up in a Christian home. I know very well there are people who sacrifice their life for what they believe in. The Twin Towers used to be outside my window.

Quite a few had conversion experiences as adults as I did. That being said I went to Church up until my teens, when other matters captured my attention. Some had no contact at all. In New Zealand where I live there are similar numbers of people who consider themselves Christians as those who would identify with having no religion. About 45% each. So quite a few who do convert haven't grown up Christian. However the majority of Christians here would not attend church much or read their bible. We're not a particularly religious country.

Islamic fundamentalism wasn't what I had in mind when considering the sacrifice of our early Christian forefathers.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Go back to the Christians who choose to be Christians ask them if they had a Christmas tree and an Easter basket when they were a young child. Chances are they were brought up in a Christian home. I know very well there are people who sacrifice their life for what they believe in. The Twin Towers used to be outside my window.

As this thread is about biblical prophecy where is Islam mentioned in the bible? Don't you think it a little strange that with Gods' omniscience and power He would have omitted any mention of Islam? It is a religion that has the allegiance of nearly a quarter of the world's population and has consistently been a thorn in Christianity's side. The Holy land being trample underfoot by the Gentiles was mentioned, why not the Muslims. It led to the Islamic Golden age that arguably was the most potent factor that brought medieval Europe out of the dark ages. What's going on?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeshua has been given a new name in Revelations, thus him being manifest as 'salvation' isn't the case in the 2nd coming; it is more as a sickle to cut down (Isaiah 34:2) or as a lion, basically as a final judgement against the nations of the world.

He does have a new name in the book of revelations.

I would propose that salvation both physically and spiritually accompany the second coming as they did with both the Mosaic and Christian Covenants.

Another consideration is the return of Elijah. John the Baptist was a spiritual, not physical return of Elijah. Put another way Elijah does not physically return but the spirit of Elijah as John the Baptist does. They perform similar roles and have a similar spiritual qualities.

In Malachi 4:5-6, God announced that He would send “Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.” In Luke 1:17, the angel Gabriel told Zacharias, John’s father, that John would fulfil Malachi 4:6, stating that he would go before the Lord “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” Jesus identified John as Elijah (Matthew 11:14;17:10-13; Mark 9:11-13). However, when asked by the priests and Levites if he were Elijah, John denied it (John 1:21)!

The significance of understanding John the Baptist as the return of Elijah: the same principle probably applies to the Return of Christ. Jesus the Christ (Christos meaning anointed one or Messiah) returns as another man with a similar Divinity, with a similar purpose. It is not Jesus who physically comes back.

Similarities include bringing both salvation and judgement as both Jesus and Moses did.

I propose that Jesus brought judgement as well as salvation. He said that He did not come to bring peace but a sword. The sword was the word of God. The acceptance of Jesus provided His followers an opportunity to escape Jerusalem and flee Judea when the Jewish Roman wars began in 66AD. The Jews failure to recognise their Messiah led to being conquered by the Romans, having Jerusalem and their temple destroyed, and began abominations of desolations.

I would propose that His mission would bring world peace as indicated by Isaiah 2:1-6, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 11:6-9

Read the whole chapter, and it is clear this is referring to after the Tribulation; where all the families of Israel return, and everyone knows God globally i.e. the Messianic age.

I wonder if it refers to both It were to refer to one only, I agree the second coming is the most likely candidate.

 

[wizanda]

He would have omitted any mention of Islam?

Both Christianity and Islam are metaphorically mentioned in a negative context...

The whole of the snare in Isaiah, is to make sure people are following God alone, and not religion.

I would propose that His mission would bring world peace as indicated by Isaiah 2:1-6, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 11:6-9

My reckoning of them verses is that world peace comes after the Tribulation; within the chapters of the Day of the Lord, the whole world is to shake, be washed in fire, to refine it, and those who remain after, are the chosen elect of God, as we find in other Eschatologies as well.

So Isaiah 9:7 is a reference to the future, where the Messiah as David shall return to an ever lasting kingdom.

Isaiah 11:6-9 is again Messianic age, where everyone shall know God....

There will be no longer Ravenous animals, so clearly the dynamics of reality have changed in between.

For Isaiah 2 to happen, the rest of the prophecy will happen first, as for the whole world to come to Israel, everyone will have to be accepting the One true God Most High.

Another consideration is the return of Elijah.

Agreed this has already happened with the reincarnation (Gilgul) of John the Baptist as Elijah...

John denied it (John 1:21)!

This is another reason why we shouldn't include the false gospel of John.

Unfortunately, the Day of the Lord has been confused by many, including possibly Yeshua himself...

As Yeshua stated, 'some of you shall not taste death until all things have been fulfilled'...

Which we know isn't the case, and some of the prophecies were then, and some are still to happen.