The Messianic verses of Isaiah

[Dawnofhope]

This is certainly getting interesting.

Both Christianity and Islam are metaphorically mentioned in a negative context...The whole of the snare in Isaiah, is to make sure people are following God alone, and not religion.

Christianity certainly was a snare or stumbling block for the Jews. Paul affirmed this. Romans 9:30-33. If it applied for Christianity then it applied to Islam too.

I would encourage you to consider the terrifying beast in Daniel 7:7-12 that also appears in Revelation in several chapters, for example chapter 12. Some Christians think it was the Roman Empire but I think it refers to militant Islam, particularly the Ummayad dynasty.

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

Umayyad dynasty | Islamic history

My reckoning of them verses is that world peace comes after the Tribulation, within the chapters of the Day of the Lord, the whole world is to shake, be washed in fire, to refine it, and those who remain after, are the chosen elect of God, as we find in other Eschatologies as well.

Agreed. Any thoughts about when this will happen?

Unfortunately, the Day of the Lord has been confused by many, including possibly Yeshua himself...

As Yeshua stated, 'some of you shall not taste death until all things have been fulfilled'...

Which we know isn't the case, and some of the prophecies were then, and some are still to happen.

I believe the Day of the Lord refers to both Christ and His second coming. Therefore Christ was correct. If you examine Matthew 24 you will see how events in the near and far future are clearly interwoven.

 

[wizanda]

the terrifying beast in Daniel 7:7-12 that also appears in Revelation in several chapters

Is Roman Catholic Christianity, with Paul speaking pompous words against the Most High....

Rome is built on 7 hills, the Iron Teeth is what people saw in battle against Romans; it devoured, and broke in pieces the people with its feet (Daniel 7:7) is what Yeshua references (Luke 21:24).

but I think it refers to militant Islam, particular the Ummayad dynasty.

Please explain your reasoning, and will question it.

Any thoughts about when this will happen?

Personally would rather turn it around; yet considering there is global eschatology saying it will happen...

It is a bit hard to reverse the things of God, which is why i earnestly seek a way for the Messiah to come, and fix the religions...

Yet after 13 years of trying, found that many are insistent their religion is correct as it is, and they don't need to change.

Therefore Christ was correct.

Yeshua was right in terms of it all being interwoven in the texts, as one long prophecy for this generation (Kali age that we're still in).

 

[allfoak]

Interesting!

Do you believe the verses could me metaphorical, or do they need literal interpretation? Perhaps its both.

This may be the reason that you think both would be appropriate.
All of us are destined to fulfill the law and become Christs the same as Jesus.
Jesus is different because he was the first born and so he became the one to release the holy spirit.
The story of the salvation of mankind is based upon his life because he was the first but it is the story of all of humanity.
We each have the potential to become one with the logos or the mind if God.

 

[wizanda]

All of us are destined to fulfill the law and become Christs the same as Jesus.

That sounds lovely from a Christian New Age perspective; unfortunately it doesn't add up.

Yeshua fulfilled the Law, and the Prophets, based on numerous specific prophecies; his fulfillment of the Law is to curse Israel, as Moses promised as his final words to Israel (Deuteronomy 29)...

The prophets then confirm this, and expound upon it; Pauline ideology that used tried to undo it, and make everyone a part of Israel.

There is only one Messiah (Christ), who is to be king in the Messianic age; people thinking they're an Elohim sent from Heaven, better have the evidence to prove it to God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This may be the reason that you think both would be appropriate.

Its because of years of biblical study as well as being a Baha'i that I would consider symbolism, metaphor, and allegory in much of the sacred texts. Consider Isaiah 13:10 as well as Isaiah 11:6-9. How would you view these verses? We've had a few interactions on various threads. How would you define you faith?

All of us are destined to fulfill the law and become Christs the same as Jesus.

How would you justify this using scripture and reason?

Jesus is different because he was the first born and so he became the one to release the holy spirit.

same question as above

The story of the salvation of mankind is based upon his life because he was the first but it is the story of all of humanity.

Why?

We each have the potential to become one with the logos or the mind if God.

Please explain this to me.

Thank you

 

[Dawnofhope]

Please explain your reasoning, and will question it.

Thank you.

You have quoted Luke 21:24. For the most part it has been the Muslims that have inhabited the Holy Land. The Roman Catholics did manage to conquer it briefly during the first crusade but this was short lived.

If you consider the Ummayad empire it was huge and extended over much of the territory referred to in Daniel 11:36-46.

Consider the territories (Edom, Moab, Ammon), Egypt, Lybia, and Ethiopia. I think its more of a Middle Eastern/Islamic empire than a Western/Christian Empire but am keen to hear your thoughts to the contrary.

Revelation 12:3-4 “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muḥammad religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries.

The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Personally would rather turn it around; yet considering there is global eschatology saying it will happen...

It is a bit hard to reverse the things of God, which is why i earnestly seek a way for the Messiah to come, and fix the religions...

That's what I'm looking at too. The Messiah who will fix the religions.

We've probably given each other plenty of food for thought for one evening and I'm heading off to sleep.

At some stage you may wish to consider the numbers 490, 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300.

I think they are the keys to understanding the year the Messiah comes.

If its in the too hard basket for now we can explore a few other prophecies in Isaiah and beyond

 

[wizanda]

You have quoted Luke 21:24. For the most part it has been the Muslims that have inhabited the Holy Land.

This reference in Luke has lots of interlinking statements within prophecy, based on the Romans caused the diaspora, and destroyed the 2nd temple as that stated...

Daniel 11:36-45.

Once we start interlinking it with Daniel 11, which still not sure on completely, then we're going into none specific fitting edges in our jigsaw.

Revelation 12:3-4

Revelation 12:4, says the Red Dragon was straight after the child was born; the Roman empire destroying Yeshua's kingdom happened straight after...

The Muslims weren't for 600+ years after.

At some stage you may wish to consider the numbers 490, 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300.

If you let us know where those numbers come from; might find reason to understand them...

Tho thinking about it, it is the maths from Daniel's 70x7 490? If so, be specific; each is a time for its specific reference.

 

[roger1440]

As this thread is about biblical prophecy where is Islam mentioned in the bible? Don't you think it a little strange that with Gods' omniscience and power He would have omitted any mention of Islam? It is a religion that has the allegiance of nearly a quarter of the world's population and has consistently been a thorn in Christianity's side. The Holy land being trample underfoot by the Gentiles was mentioned, why not the Muslims. It led to the Islamic Golden age that arguably was the most potent factor that brought medieval Europe out of the dark ages. What's going on?

The point I’m making is that people of many ideologies have sacrificed their life. It’s only when we are part of that same ideology we pat them on the back. When we are not part of that same ideology that so called martyr is a nut case. The author of the Gospel of Judas makes a good point that God does not require human sacrifice. Why was Abraham chosen? He realized human sacrifice was wrong. He probably thought to himself, “Holy crap, this can’t possibly be the right thing to do”. That was the voice he heard, his own conscience. I don’t believe it is necessary for “"the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church".

 

[allfoak]

This may be the reason that you think both would be appropriate.
All of us are destined to fulfill the law and become Christs the same as Jesus.
Jesus is different because he was the first born and so he became the one to release the holy spirit.
The story of the salvation of mankind is based upon his life because he was the first but it is the story of all of humanity.
We each have the potential to become one with the logos or the mind if God.

How would you justify this using scripture and reason?

I will do the best that i can to explain the things i have said but please understand the difficulty in trying to use scripture that is not there.
The foundation of the things of which i speak has been removed.
I also have to stress that i do not interpret the Bible literally.
The way that i interpret the Bible is by turning it within.


Jesus said we are his brothers and that we will not only do what he did but more, because he returned to the Father.
The plan of salvation was that his son (us) would be crucified on the cross of life (note that a cross and a compass have four points).
This is the same as the verse in Romans that speaks of the whole creation being subjected to futility by God for a time until all is finished and the last soul returns to the Father.

I do not fully understand how it is that what Jesus accomplished releasing the holy spirit but it is clear that the OT prophets speak of it but did not live to see it happen.
It seems this occurred by him becoming pure spirit himself, which happened by becoming one with the Father.
We must see that Jesus was just a man like any other who became the son of God at his baptism by John.
I know this is not sufficient, so just keep asking and i will continue to break it down little by little as i am able.

Its because of years of biblical study as well as being a Baha'i that I would consider symbolism, metaphor, and allegory in much of the sacred texts. Consider Isaiah 13:10 as well as Isaiah 11:6-9. How would you view these verses? We've had a few interactions on various threads. How would you define you faith?

It is important to understand that verses like these cannot possibly be understood literally.
There is however a way to understand what seems to be an obvious prediction of the future.
As you mentioned in another post, there is such a thing as the Law of Karma.
Which means that the future can be created through the understanding and use of the is law.
Most see it as something negative but there is another way to see this law and that is the subject of the thread i started called the law of attraction.
The law of attraction is just a more positive way of describing the law of Karma.

Not sure what it is that you are asking me when you ask me how i would describe my faith?
My life is my religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The point I’m making is that people of many ideologies have sacrificed their life. It’s only when we are part of that same ideology we pat them on the back. When we are not part of that same ideology that so called martyr is a nut case. The author of the Gospel of Judas makes a good point that God does not require human sacrifice. Why was Abraham chosen? He realized human sacrifice was wrong. He probably thought to himself, “Holy crap, this can’t possibly be the right thing to do”. That was the voice he heard, his own conscience. I don’t believe it is necessary for “"the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church".

Are you publicly recanting your faith in Christ?

 

[oldbadger]

Are you publicly recanting your faith in Christ?

...... the above was sent to Roger.
The only part of Roger's post which really 'stuck out' was about objection to sacrifice.

Jesus was categorically against sacrifice for the remission of sins.
So was the Baptist.

I just don't know how some Creeds and Churches turned that around.'

 

[Dawnofhope]

Once we start interlinking it with Daniel 11, which still not sure on completely, then we're going into none specific fitting edges in our jigsaw.

Its probably useful to know that Daniel 11:1-31 has all been linked to the Persian and Greek empires BC. After that there is no agreement.

Revelation 12:4, says the Red Dragon was straight after the child was born; the Roman empire destroying Yeshua's kingdom happened straight after...

The Muslims weren't for 600+ years after.

However Revelations is a prophetic book. Prophesy means predicting something that's going to happen, rather than something that has happened. It does included references to the return of Christ so its allowed to be in the far off future. The woman giving birth has symbolism that represents two other Islamic empires.

If you let us know where those numbers come from; might find reason to understand them...

Tho thinking about it, it is the maths from Daniel's 70x7 490? If so, be specific; each is a time for its specific reference.

490 is the easiest one as it refers to Christ. Daniel 9:24-27. Once we are able to see Christ in the prophecy it becomes a little easier to sort out the other numbers

 

[Dawnofhope]

...... the above was sent to Roger.
The only part of Roger's post which really 'stuck out' was about objection to sacrifice.

Jesus was categorically against sacrifice for the remission of sins.
So was the Baptist.

I just don't know how some Creeds and Churches turned that around.'

There is an element of black humour in my comment.

Didn't God sacrifice His 'Son'? Or is that exempt from being considered a human sacrifice?

 

[oldbadger]

There is an element of black humour in my comment.

There's always some element of humour in mine.

(Watch out, those Americans will pull you up on your and my spelling. )

Didn't God sacrifice His 'Son'? Or is that exempt from being considered a human sacrifice?

Jesus never referred to himself as Son of God, rather Son of Man.
But he repeatedly is reported to have favoured Mercy over Sacrifice, which is why his disciples immersed folks for the remission of their sins, and why he cured sickness caused by sin.

Further, he demonstrated his opinion outstandingly clearly when he trashed the Temple Trading tables and money-changer's, and picketed the Temple Courts two days running.

John the Baptist was so angry about all that corruption and deception that he attracted thousands for free remission of sins by immersion. Temople trade must have dropped away alarmingly which pressured Antipas to go out and arrest him, since he was on the East Bank, out of Pilot's authority and responsibility.

So....... no sacrifice of anything for the remission of sins. You don't even need to shoot a bunny for forgiveness!

 

[wizanda]

I just don't know how some Creeds and Churches turned that around.'

You've noticed Paul and John; then it is just recognizing that is where the concept comes from.

 

[oldbadger]

You've noticed Paul and John; then it is just recognizing that is where the concept comes from.

Exactly so.....
Quite a lot of Creeds should recognise Paul, John and even Cephas as their main prophets!

I wonder how that lot would fit into OT prophecies?

 

[wizanda]

I wonder how that lot would fit into OT prophecies?

Can show numerous prophecies about the negative aspects of Christianity within the Tanakh; this thread is on Isaiah... So can start from there:

Isaiah 34, which is speaking of 'the Day of the Lord', lists the 'Ravenous' animals to be removed; links with where Yeshua says, "Where the body is, there the 'vultures gather' (Matthew 24:28)".

In Isaiah 28, the word 'rumor' which we find in Isaiah 53:1, goes from Isaiah 28:9-19, which makes a 'bed of adultery'...

Within it the 'covenant with death', was disannulled before it was ever conceived, and the 'Chief Corner Stone that the builders reject', is in the middle of it (Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

 

[Dawnofhope]

Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
It's good enough for me.

It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
It's good enough for me.

Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
It's good enough for me.

It was good for dad and mother
It was good for dad and mother
It was good for dad and mother
And it's good enough for me.

Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that…

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not sure what it is that you are asking me when you ask me how i would describe my faith?
My life is my religion.

Thanks for sharing your faith with me. Its always helpful to have an idea of where each other are coming from when discussing such matters.

My faith is easy to define. I'm a Baha'i

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

Baha'is believe in the same God, Jesus and the bible as the Christians.

Of the Holy Bible, Abdu'l-Baha had this to say:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18