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The Miracle of Water.

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Nobody treats science as a religion, except for creationists who have to compare it to religion to make themselves feel better about their own lack of evidence, I guess.
Exactly, and this is just one of the disingenuous tactics that so many of them use so they can basically label the ToE as a sort of "false religion".

The fact that in science we use the "scientific method", which is certainly not used in religion, clearly shows a vast gulf between religion and science. And, as you well know, theologians pretty much are aware that one comes to believe in God (or Gods) on the basis of faith, not objectively-derived evidence.

Of course, this is not the only area whereas the JW's play rather fast & loose with the issue of truth and honesty, so none of this that they do should be any surprise to us. Jesus said not to judge, but the JW's do it anyway and then claim to believe in Jesus. They make false accusations against other denominations and religions but then claim to be honest brokers. They claim that the Church fell into "apostasy" even though the Bible has Jesus saying otherwise when talking to Peter and the others.

But their leadership sure does gladly collect money from those who blindly believe them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Give up all you believe? Why would you have to do that? There are many Christians in the world who accept evolution and still believe in God. And why do you think that your God isn’t intelligent enough to have designed evolution?

There are many "Christians" who believe a lot of things that Christ never taught......so? One thing he never taught was evolution.....but the YEC's are equally wrong in their assertions about creation. They made this an "either/or" scenario when it doesn't have to be. The "Christians" who think God created evolution have sold out to peer pressure, not wanting to appear to be 'uneducated'. There is no way to blend the two. If you take the Genesis account in the original language, you get a very different scenario. It allows true science (as opposed to theoretical science) and the Bible to speak for themselves. They are in harmony, not opposition.

Dead end theory? What on earth are you talking about? The theory of evolution is just a description about how biodiversity occurs on Earth. What about it makes you want to jump off a cliff?

Oh, but it is a dead end theory. If evolution is true, and we are just the product of a series of accidental unguided events that took over millions of years to get to the stage where our planet and everything on it could become extinct in a matter of hours (thanks to men of science).....which way do you want the world to end?....by its own hand, or by God's? At least with God, there will be survivors....and the earth itself will not be rendered uninhabitable. There is a future that does not depend on "intelligent" humans.
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Thank God!!!

And why don’t you feel that way about say, germ theory?

Not even in the same ball park, you should be embarrassed to compare them.

Besides, it’s not about whether it’s “appealing” or not. It’s about whether it is true or not. But thanks for illuminating one of the huge differences between your way of thinking and mine. You’ve demonstrated again that you believe what you want to believe.

But you guys don't blindly believe in science's interpretation of its evidence, do you?

I am a believer in Intelligent Design because I see it everywhere. You see what I see and believe science when it tells you that we are just flukes of nature. How many unplanned flukes did it take to get us here? When do the stats become just a little too unbelievable? What are the odds of life itself arising by chance? How many zeros can you count?

A world with less poverty. A world with less hunger. A world where human beings live longer than they ever have. A world where humans make it through childhood without dying of smallpox. A world where we can explore outer space, for goodness sakes!

That would be nice if it were even remotely true. Poverty is under everyone's nose every time they hit the pavement of any city. Homelessness and hunger are still rampant even in affluent nations who do not take care of their poor and disadvantaged, but spend billions on weapons to kill people. In Africa and in war torn nations where there is little to address the starvation or disease, or no aid permitted to help those whose children are wasting away, what hope do you give them? Smallpox is a small problem if you are subjected to abandonment, abuse and sex trafficking in Bangladesh, India or Asia....for goodness sake! What are you talking about?
Do you honestly see humans coming to the rescue? Do you ignore the problem, keep on harming the world, and hope someone else will clean up the mess? This is the reality. Humans can't address the problems because humans ARE the problem. Where is science helping?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think today’s generation will do just fine. They are bright, and they’ve got so much science and technology available to them – so much more than anyone has ever had in the history of humankind.

I don’t agree with this kind of mentality anyway. People were saying that about the last generation, and the one before that, and on and on.

And in each generation it just keeps getting worse. Today's kids are 'entitled snowflakes' who can't handle the word "no". They have all the rights given to them by law, but accept no responsibility for their actions. I can only imagine where they will take us.....Spoiled brats in leadership positions....Oh hang on.....
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What’s vain about wanting to make the world a better place?

Science has an amazing track record. The scientific method is the reason we know everything that we currently know about the world we inhabit. Religion and ancient texts didn’t give us that and never could

Good grief! Science has an amazing track record??? You mean that giving us atomic weapons, (when science learned how to split the atom) now possessed by rogue nations with unstable leadership is a good step forward? Isn't it enough that only one nation has ever used them....but they are the good guys....right? Only responsible nations should be allowed to have them. What does the fact that they were threatening to use them again imply to you?

Did science warn of the dangers of nuclear reactors if something went wrong? Was it a good way to make electricity...or a sneaky way to produce plutonium?

Why is the world choking on plastic that is not biodegradable when there was an alternative plant based product available all along? Did science steer anyone in the right direction, or did they just follow the money?

Has science's excursions into space, involving billions of dollars to accomplish its game of "I spy", really helped the people who live on planet Earth? Are they really going to Mars to benefit mankind or are they seeking something to exploit? What is their track record? Nothing I would be proud of. How can anything that puts such great store in its intelligence, behave in a way that completely negates that claim? It appears as if your faith in science is stronger than my faith in God, based on the evidence.

Adaptation, as I’ve seen you describe it, IS EVOLUTION. And the only difference between “microevolution” and “macroevolution” is time. It’s all the same process.

That is what science keeps telling us....and yet there is no real evidence that any organism can "evolve" (adapt) outside of its taxonomic family to create a new one. That is where the guesswork begins. "Above species level" sounds plausible except it has never been observed. Science has no real evidence for "branching....it is assumed to have taken place because there is no other way to support their theory.

There are tons of “missing links,” otherwise known as “transitional fossils.” There’s another falsehood you can’t seem to stop repeating. Sorry, but you don’t get to just make things up. To be sure, you’re the one making things up, not scientists. Scientists don’t get to make things up. And if they do, they end up being shunned from the scientific community, and rightfully so.

There you just answered your own statement. Where are these "tons" of "missing links"(transitional fossils)...I'd like to see them and see how science explains them. Can you provide some?

You see the mechanism for keeping mouths shut? Who wants to lose their job or to be ridiculed in the scientific community? The machinery is too powerful....that doesn't make it right.

I think it’s bizarre that you’ve never actually studied any organism with any kind of depth whatsoever, but still think you know more about science than people who spend their entire lives training and investigating and studying this stuff. Didn’t you just try to tell me I’m vain?

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....I don't have to study any organism in depth to appreciate design when I see it. I have watched a lot of David Attenborough documentaries and he takes us through the amazing features of all sorts of creatures that he has studied over his lifetime....He can't hide the design by referring to evolution...it speaks louder than he does.....louder than even Dawkins does. I have read many articles on natural science topics, and enjoyed them tremendously, but I obviously prefer those written in such a way that I understand what they are saying. For many, the study of these creatures and their habitats leads us to appreciate their Designer.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It’s not a belief. It’s demonstrable fact. Science doesn’t make faith-based assertions

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Of course it doesn't make faith based assertions....but how come it can't actually prove a thing it claims? Sorry, there's that inconvenient "p" word again. Evolution is as "faith based" as ID. You have to "believe" what you can't provide real evidence for. Annoying, isn't it?

It can only speak to the evidence.

You mean the evidence that is interpreted to support the theory?
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You can believe it if you wish because "believing" is all you can do.

You have beliefs that you pass off as fact. Perhaps that is why you don’t understand science.

I admit to my beliefs. They are facts to me.....just as your beliefs are facts to you. I can't prove God to you....you can't prove evolution to me. There is a stalemate...but not close to a checkmate.

If you think they’re different processes, then no, you don’t understand evolution.

Oh but I do...better than you think.

Science has so much more evidence for their claims than you do for yours, it’s not even a contest.

A contest is really what this issue is.....its a contest that will have only one winner. The loser takes all his supporters down with him...but hey, its our choice of who to believe. If we pick our side, we pick our future. That's fair isn't it?

I don’t have any empty void inside of me yelling anything.

Neither do I.....I would if I accepted what science is asserting. I need something to look forward to and your theory gives me nothing.....it is devoid of reward either now or in the future....just more of the same. Not good enough, sorry.

this is a discussion board. We are discussing evolution. You are making claims about evolution that are inaccurate, and so I correct them, and will continue to do so as long as you make them

No one has proven that my claims are wrong. I submit the truth as I understand it, and all you guys do is complain. Where is all this evidence you keep talking about? Surely you would have presented it by now....you know...the indisputable proof that macro-evolution is not just something on a diagram or in a picture. Give us something that shows us that a single celled organism can actually morph itself into a dinosaur given enough time.....please.

Evolution is a fact.

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If it was a fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would all be evolutionists because of the "overwhelming evidence" as to its validity....but on inspection the "overwhelming evidence" is rather underwhelming when you consider how much of this theory requires no proof. It is a belief system just like we have.

The theory of evolution provides explanation for that fact. Talking about the reality of evolution does not in any way indicate that it isn’t true. What a silly assertion.

The silly assertion is to call evolution a fact when you have no real substantial evidence to prove that it is. Guesses, even educated ones, are not facts.

We both know you can’t demonstrate anything about your God.

You make assumptions. You believe what you want to believe. You follow a religion that won’t allow you to believe in demonstrable facts about the world. Stop projecting that onto me.

I admit that I have a faith based belief system....you pretend you don't. That is the only difference.

Everything you’ve said about science here is nonsense. Science does not operate like your religion does.

It does...more so than you realize.

Beliefs are a dime a dozen. Put up some evidence, or get out of the way.

Why?.... is there a bulldozer coming? Your bulldozer is a Tonka truck. Its a mouse masquerading as a dinosaur.

Nobody treats science as a religion, except for creationists who have to compare it to religion to make themselves feel better about their own lack of evidence, I guess.

If it requires the same level of belief that we have...then its a religion.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If you take the Genesis account in the original language, you get a very different scenario.
That would be relevant, if you were able to read either Greek (eg Septuagint) or Hebrew (eg Masoretic Text, Dead Sea Scrolls), Deeje, which you can’t.
There are many "Christians" who believe a lot of things that Christ never taught......so? One thing he never taught was evolution.....but the YEC's are equally wrong in their assertions about creation.
Again, irrelevant, because I remember that in one of your older posts that your biology, like mine, don’t go beyond high school biology. And you’ve never worked in any biolog-related profession.

Other than you expressing your personal opinions on evolution and posting photos of animals without context, you really are no authority figure on the matter of what constructed as biology or not biology.
The "Christians" who think God created evolution have sold out to peer pressure, not wanting to appear to be 'uneducated'.
Really, Deeje?

Conspiracy theory?

How do know you that biologists with Christian backgrounds cannot arrive their own conclusions based on the evidences available, that evolution is a fact?

Are you really going to go down that road?

Sorry, but it is your own (lack of) education that you can speak of, not the education of other Christians.

You are the only one that I see that appeared to be “uneducated”.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There are many "Christians" who believe a lot of things that Christ never taught......so? One thing he never taught was evolution.....but the YEC's are equally wrong in their assertions about creation. They made this an "either/or" scenario when it doesn't have to be. The "Christians" who think God created evolution have sold out to peer pressure, not wanting to appear to be 'uneducated'. There is no way to blend the two. If you take the Genesis account in the original language, you get a very different scenario. It allows true science (as opposed to theoretical science) and the Bible to speak for themselves. They are in harmony, not opposition.

Yeah, yeah, no true Scotsman and all that. You say he’s not a Christian, she says you aren’t, they say he isn’t, blah, blah. Maybe let the rest of us know, once you guys have figured it out amongst yourselves. I think you’ve met your quota on logical fallacies by now.


Oh, but it is a dead end theory. If evolution is true, and we are just the product of a series of accidental unguided events that took over millions of years to get to the stage where our planet and everything on it could become extinct in a matter of hours (thanks to men of science).....which way do you want the world to end?....by its own hand, or by God's? At least with God, there will be survivors....and the earth itself will not be rendered uninhabitable. There is a future that does not depend on "intelligent" humans.
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Thank God!!!

Boy, you really are pessimistic.

To me, it’s absolutely amazing that we are here at all, and we should make the most of our short time in this incredible place.


Not even in the same ball park, you should be embarrassed to compare them.

Nope. Like I explained already, they’re in the exact same ballpark. Germ theory and the theory of evolution are both scientific theories. Both were arrived at using the same scientific methodology and standards. In fact, you could even say that evolution has more evidence supporting it than germ theory does.
You should be embarrassed that you refuse to accept science that conflicts with your pre-conceived views of the world that were written by people who knew far, far, far less about the world than we do today – because they wrote it down in some old book.

But you guys don't blindly believe in science's interpretation of its evidence, do you?

I don’t. But I can’t speak for others.

The beauty of science is that you don’t have to blindly believe anything. As I’ve pointed out to you countless times before.

I see you’ve sidestepped the point … hmmm

I am a believer in Intelligent Design because I see it everywhere.

Believe all you want. But, if you can’t show it, you don’t know it.

You see what I see and believe science when it tells you that we are just flukes of nature. How many unplanned flukes did it take to get us here? When do the stats become just a little too unbelievable? What are the odds of life itself arising by chance? How many zeros can you count?

I see what is there – that organisms evolve over time.

What are the odds that the specific God you believe in even exists? What are the odds of life arising by God-magic? What are the odds of any God arising at all? I can play this game too. The problem is, that you have yet to actually demonstrate anything you believe. So far, all you’ve got are assertions.

That would be nice if it were even remotely true. Poverty is under everyone's nose every time they hit the pavement of any city. Homelessness and hunger are still rampant even in affluent nations who do not take care of their poor and disadvantaged, but spend billions on weapons to kill people. In Africa and in war torn nations where there is little to address the starvation or disease, or no aid permitted to help those whose children are wasting away, what hope do you give them? Smallpox is a small problem if you are subjected to abandonment, abuse and sex trafficking in Bangladesh, India or Asia....for goodness sake! What are you talking about?
Again, wow, you certainly are pessimistic! There are people in the world, as we speak, trying to address those issues. I sure don’t see any gods doing anything about it.

I’m talking in comparison to our past. Would you really argue that we aren’t better off now than say, during the dark ages, or even the Victorian era? Because I sure wouldn’t.

Do you honestly see humans coming to the rescue? Do you ignore the problem, keep on harming the world, and hope someone else will clean up the mess? This is the reality. Humans can't address the problems because humans ARE the problem. Where is science helping?

I try to address problems and correct them, rather than avoid them. The only beings I see around anywhere who can address any problems whatsoever are us. That’s all there is.

Multiple people have pointed out the vast benefits of science to you. But you’re far too pessimistic to see them, apparently.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Poverty is under everyone's nose every time they hit the pavement of any city. Homelessness and hunger are still rampant even in affluent nations who do not take care of their poor and disadvantaged, but spend billions on weapons to kill people. In Africa and in war torn nations where there is little to address the starvation or disease, or no aid permitted to help those whose children are wasting away, what hope do you give them? Smallpox is a small problem if you are subjected to abandonment, abuse and sex trafficking in Bangladesh, India or Asia....for goodness sake! What are you talking about?

There has never in the history of the world been so many living so long, so healthfully, so comfortably, and with so much economic and social opportunity. Your religious dogma has deprived you of your ability to love and respect humanity.

Where is science helping?

In my life, every day. We're having a mini-split air conditioner / heater unit installed this month, as well as a couple more solar panels to power them. They are remarkably inexpensive thanks to modern manufacturing technology.

My blood pressure and cholesterol have been normal on medications for about 30 years now, the very conditions that, untreated in the late 1940's, killed my maternal grandfather at age 59 of a heart attack. I'm 64 now, and can reasonably expect to live to 80 with the same genetic predispositions to early death that took my grandfather before I was born, and before he retired from work.

My father's sister limped from childhood polio. I've never seen a new case in my entire life thanks to science.

You're deliberately blind to the miracles of science. You miss out on so much.

"You sit at your computer in the comfort of your air conditioned home in the glow of electric lighting even at night while linked to a vast network of other computers, You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor, type into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits.


"This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a super computer on a mass server. This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor over 10,000 miles away from you just so you could say, "Science is all a bunch of man made hogwash.
"- anon.

And in each generation it just keeps getting worse. Today's kids are 'entitled snowflakes' who can't handle the word "no". They have all the rights given to them by law, but accept no responsibility for their actions. I can only imagine where they will take us.....Spoiled brats in leadership positions

You detest humanity.

Do you understand that if you weren't human yourself, those would be fighting words? If you were a member of a non-human race of beings competing with humanity and spreading such misanthropic messages, you would be called a human-hating bigot.

Has science's excursions into space, involving billions of dollars to accomplish its game of "I spy", really helped the people who live on planet Earth?

Yes. Use your search engine if you want to know more.

there is no real evidence that any organism can "evolve" (adapt) outside of its taxonomic family to create a new one.

Nor does the theory say that organisms do that. Once in a taxonomic family, you and your descendants are there for good. Likewise with taxonomic orders, classes, and phyla. You really ought to learn a little something about the scientific theory that you lambaste to those that do know it.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where are these "tons" of "missing links"(transitional fossils)...I'd like to see them

Google is your friend. Perhaps you should stop requesting that others do the looking for you and tutor you, especially after refusing to look at the material provided for you already. Don't be lazy. Learning requires your effort.

You see the mechanism for keeping mouths shut? Who wants to lose their job or to be ridiculed in the scientific community? The machinery is too powerful....that doesn't make it right.

If you had an idea or a product of value, the world would be lining up for it. The fact, what creationists offer has no value. The scientific and rational skeptic communities simply aren't interested in faith-based ideas. Creationists are ridiculed because they insist on sitting at the big boys' table, but are wearing

You can believe it if you wish because "believing" is all you can do.

No, believing is all you can do. Others can know.

Why do you think that you understand how the world appears to a person eductated in science and evaluating evidence? How could you know?

I need something to look forward to and your theory gives me nothing

I need a reason to believe, and your religion gives me nothing. It gives my entire community nothing. While others are out tending to orphans and children with infirmities, battered women, animals needing shelter and homes, and the like, our local Jehovah's Witnesses just go door-to-door and camp out with stands in public places hoping to help themselves by growing market share, but nobody else.

No one has proven that my claims are wrong.

No one needs to. If you want your claims believed by rational, skeptical empiricists, you have the burden of making a compelling argument. If you don't mind your unsupported claims being dismissed out of hand for lack of evidence, you have no such burden.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

Give us something that shows us that a single celled organism can actually morph itself into a dinosaur given enough time.....please.

Of course, you have misrepresented what the science says yet again - organisms morph, say from infant to adult or caterpillar to butterfly, but we don't call it evolution. Evolution doesn't occur in individuals within a lifetime. It occurs in populations over generations. You've been told that before, but new information doesn't seem to take.

Give us something that shows that the tree of life could not have evolved naturalistically from a single population of ancestral unicellular organisms.

If it was a fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Evolution is a fact, and we are having this conversation anyway.

You seem to presume that your ability to determine what is true is sufficiently developed that if something were a fact, you'd know it. Others don't see you that way.

The silly assertion is to call evolution a fact when you have no real substantial evidence to prove that it is. Guesses, even educated ones, are not facts.

You simply don't know enough evolutionary science to offer an informed opinion. You're still asking for proof, don't seem to know what a transitional fossil is, and are still wondering why creatures don't jump from clade to clade.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And in each generation it just keeps getting worse. Today's kids are 'entitled snowflakes' who can't handle the word "no". They have all the rights given to them by law, but accept no responsibility for their actions. I can only imagine where they will take us.....Spoiled brats in leadership positions....Oh hang on.....
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What’s getting worse?

People have always said such things about the generations that come after them, nothing new there. To me, it’s nothing but a whole lot of “good old days” mentality, where we all seem to think the best times occurred during our own youth – like a nostalgia thing.

There’s more of that fabulous pessimism you’ve been pushing, though. The world really is a terrible place to you, isn’t it? How sad.

Good grief! Science has an amazing track record??? You mean that giving us atomic weapons, (when science learned how to split the atom) now possessed by rogue nations with unstable leadership is a good step forward? Isn't it enough that only one nation has ever used them....but they are the good guys....right? Only responsible nations should be allowed to have them. What does the fact that they were threatening to use them again imply to you?

Yes, it has an amazing track record. Your Bible didn’t give us medicine, vaccines, space flight or the technology you are using at this very moment. Nope. Science gave us that.

Maybe your God should do something about dictators threatening to kill us all. It’s as if this God is not even there at all.

Did science warn of the dangers of nuclear reactors if something went wrong? Was it a good way to make electricity...or a sneaky way to produce plutonium?

Yes, scientists have warned of the dangers of nuclear reactors.

Why is the world choking on plastic that is not biodegradable when there was an alternative plant based product available all along? Did science steer anyone in the right direction, or did they just follow the money?

Why are you personifying science? It’s a method for understanding how the world works, not a person.

Has science's excursions into space, involving billions of dollars to accomplish its game of "I spy", really helped the people who live on planet Earth? Are they really going to Mars to benefit mankind or are they seeking something to exploit? What is their track record? Nothing I would be proud of. How can anything that puts such great store in its intelligence, behave in a way that completely negates that claim? It appears as if your faith in science is stronger than my faith in God, based on the evidence.
Apparently you have no idea about the amazing technology NASA scientists have brought the world. What a shame.

NASA Technologies Benefit Our Lives


That is what science keeps telling us....and yet there is no real evidence that any organism can "evolve" (adapt) outside of its taxonomic family to create a new one. That is where the guesswork begins. "Above species level" sounds plausible except it has never been observed. Science has no real evidence for "branching....it is assumed to have taken place because there is no other way to support their theory.
No, no, that’s what you’ve said when you’ve described what you call adaptation, which is actually just evolution.

Evolution operates on populations, not individuals.

Evolution is observable and demonstrable.

There you just answered your own statement. Where are these "tons" of "missing links"(transitional fossils)...I'd like to see them and see how science explains them. Can you provide some?

They’re in labs and museums all over the world. I’ve seen many people actually provide them for you in the past (I’m one of them), and then I watched you hand-wave them away, in favour of your preconceived religious beliefs. You can even find them yourself, if you actually cared enough to learn. But you’ve already said that you’re going to believe what you want to believe. And apparently, you believe you know better than all the world’s scientists who have actually studied the specimens and spent their lives researching this stuff in depth.


You see the mechanism for keeping mouths shut? Who wants to lose their job or to be ridiculed in the scientific community? The machinery is too powerful....that doesn't make it right.
Enough with this conspiracy theory nonsense.

If a scientist can demonstrate that his/her claims are correct, their claims will come to be accepted, because that's how peer review and evidence works.

How do you think the world first reacted to Darwin's theory, when he first came out with it? Do you think, perhaps, that he was ridiculed for it? Most likely. And now look what has happened with his theory.

The Big Bang theory was mocked and ridiculed when it was first proposed. Then scientists found a bunch of evidence for it and it's become more accepted as time has gone on and more evidence has accumulated to back it up.

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....I don't have to study any organism in depth to appreciate design when I see it. I have watched a lot of David Attenborough documentaries and he takes us through the amazing features of all sorts of creatures that he has studied over his lifetime....He can't hide the design by referring to evolution...it speaks louder than he does.....louder than even Dawkins does. I have read many articles on natural science topics, and enjoyed them tremendously, but I obviously prefer those written in such a way that I understand what they are saying. For many, the study of these creatures and their habitats leads us to appreciate their Designer.


And there's your problem. Thanks for making it obvious.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What’s getting worse?

People have always said such things about the generations that come after them, nothing new there. To me, it’s nothing but a whole lot of “good old days” mentality, where we all seem to think the best times occurred during our own youth – like a nostalgia thing.

There is a wonderful quote from Aristotle (3rd century BC) complaining about the youth of his day, how they disrespected their elders and were generally bad people.

The world hasn't changed in that regard since then.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There are many "Christians" who believe a lot of things that Christ never taught......so? One thing he never taught was evolution.....but the YEC's are equally wrong in their assertions about creation.
The only ones who clearly understand Christ are the JW's. That JWs are never wrong can be seen by the accuracy of their predictions of the End of Times.

Yes, the above is sarcasm.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You see the mechanism for keeping mouths shut? Who wants to lose their job or to be ridiculed in the scientific community? The machinery is too powerful....that doesn't make it right.
  • If that were true Darwin would have never come forward with his radical theories that challenged the status quo.
  • If that were true Hubble would have never come forward with his radical theories that challenged the status quo.
  • If that were true Alfred Wegener would have never come forward with his radical theories that challenged the status quo.
Scientists come forth all the time with new ideas that challenge the status quo. If you were right, then we would still believe that the earth is the center of the universe.

On the other hand, if people like Behe continue to make foolish, debunked assertions then they deserve ridicule.
  • If a football coach were to assert that teams can win by never throwing forward passes, he would be ridiculed.
  • If an architect claimed that one need not worry about stress on vertical columns, he would be ridiculed.
  • If an aircraft engineer claimed that vacuum played no part in a plane's ability to fly, he would be ridiculed.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Did science warn of the dangers of nuclear reactors if something went wrong?
Yes, they did. That's one reason safety precautions were built in. They worked for three-mile island.

Overall, they are very safe:
There are 60 commercially operating nuclear power plants with 98 nuclear reactors in 30 U.S. states. Worldwide there are 450 with many more planned.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Has science's excursions into space, involving billions of dollars to accomplish its game of "I spy", really helped the people who live on planet Earth?
I would say if you have to ask if the space program has provided benefits to humanity then you really need to try to get educated, but I realize that you are far beyond that.


I guess you don't use cell phones. I guess you don't think advance notice of hurricanes and tornadoes is a good idea.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
If [evolution] was a fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would all be evolutionists because of the "overwhelming evidence" as to its validity.

How quaintly naive. Evidence cannot overcome deeply indoctrinated beliefs, especially when that indoctrination continues on a daily basis as is the case with some religious groups. Therefore, it is not surprising that JW's have the lowest rate of acceptance of evolution.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No one has proven that my claims are wrong.
No one has proven that the claims of the proponents of Last Thursdayism are wrong.
No one has proven that the claims of Sun Myung Moon are wrong.
No one has proven that the claims of David Koresh are wrong.

Is that really what you want to use as a measuring post?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I admit that I have a faith based belief system....you pretend you don't. That is the only difference.
Your faith is based on the concepts of a few people who tried to start a new religion.

Our faith is in the accumulated evidence of research carried out by thousands of educated people over 150 years.
 
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