The most civilized people of Ancient History

[lewisnotmiller]

Feet binding never really spread from China, where it originated, to Japan in any large measure.

You and your facts. Can't you just roll with the vibe?

 

[Sunstone]

Don't go thinking, though, that they weren't incredibly cruel. When Athens went to war with Sparta they sent a fleet to the city of Melos, on the Aegean sea, to bully them for money and support in the war against Sparta. Melos had been neutral until that time and wished to remain so and, accordingly, refused the terms of the shake down. The Athenians massacred them, saying "The Strong Do What They Can, And The Weak Suffer What They Must."

I will concede, though, that they weren't all THAT much worse than other civilized people at that time before human rights. The exception is, of course, the first half of the Achaemenid empire where there was, in fact, human rights and compassion in abundance.

I agree the Athenians could be impressively cruel -- as cruel as anyone during their time. I'm just saying that they were overall a bit less cruel to their slaves -- except the slaves that worked the silver mines -- than we might suppose.

 

[Drolefille]

I have to admit, I was surprised to see the Hebrews listed here, as if they were the absolute pinnacle of western/near eastern civilization at the time, like the Roman empire or the Greeks under Alexander are often said to have been.

OP is incredibly western-centric, and has made multiple threads talking about how chauvinistic the Hebrews were and Greece/Rome wasn't. As noted he can't be bothered to think about non-western civilizations and talking about how civilized a people are is already a morass or cultural bias. OP is obsessed with insulting Judaism (and women).

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

When did Civilization come to the USA?

Was it with the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of black people?
Or with its implementation as a result of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960's?

Or is civilization yet to come?

How do you measure a civilised people?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When did Civilization come to the USA?

It did? That's news to me.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

When did Civilization come to the USA?

Was it with the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of black slaves?

If you really want to think outside the box, why not think BEFORE the introduction of black slaves. Like the Olmecs or something...
:tribal:

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If you really want to think outside the box, why not think BEFORE the introduction of black slaves. Like the Olmecs or something...
:tribal:

OK from that point. of view how many civilizations were destroyed by the proto USA. To make way for themselves.

 

[Estro Felino]

OP is incredibly western-centric, and has made multiple threads talking about how chauvinistic the Hebrews were and Greece/Rome wasn't.

Honey, I've never said that. I insist on saying that Jews were masculine and too machistas, that's true. But they were very civilized and refined; in fact the magnificence of the Jerusalem temple proves it.

If I were to describe Greeks and Romans, I would say:

Greeks: very intelligent, imaginative, creative, but ugly as carcasses. And most of them lustful homos. With long hideous noses and geometric-shaped faces. Take a look at Cleopatra's nose


Romans: tawdry uncool and tough boors, but very cute, with green eyes and brown hair.

 

[Riverwolf]

Believe it, dear.
I remind you that when the Greeks started to write hundreds of History Books, the Germans used to eat raw meat and live in stinking mud huts.

Oh?

Let's take another look, shall we, at these so-called "uncivilized" people. Why don't we use the Anglo-Saxons as our model? After all, there are a number of reconstructed villages based on the best of our archaeological knowledge.

Here's a Hall, with a house in the background:

Spoiler: Big Picture

Now, I don't know about you, but that looks like wood, not mud. I think Roman Propaganda has been afoot, again. There's also plenty of indication that they were very much aware of the benefits of cooking meat rather than eating it raw.

Now, that said, I wouldn't call the Celts or the (decidedly NOT homogenous) Germanic Tribes "civilized", simply because they didn't live in cities (the primary prerequisite). It has nothing to do with their behavior; going on behavior alone, none of the listed people were really any more civilized than anyone else. After all, if they were so enlightened, why then did they fall? Fat lot of good being enlightened did them.

I also don't include the Nords during the time period provided, because as far as I can tell, we know virtually nothing about the pre-Migration Nords.

All that considered, I did not vote. People are people are people, and people don't change a whole lot over such a short amount of time (all things considered), even as specific Kings and Dynasties rise and fall.

I'm also not a fan of the Roman conceptualization of "civilized vs. dirty barbarians", seeing as it was MY people they were calling barbaric while they were tossing their unwanted babies in trash dumps.

 

[Estro Felino]

Let's take another look, shall we, at these so-called "uncivilized" people. Why don't we use the Anglo-Saxons as our model? After all, there are a number of reconstructed villages based on the best of our archaeological knowledge.

no...please...do you think that cabin is sign of civilization?
what about this theater...which is in my town (fifth cent BC)?

I'm also not a fan of the Roman conceptualization of "civilized vs. dirty barbarians", seeing as it was MY people they were calling barbaric while they were tossing their unwanted babies in trash dumps.

well...honey...you can't have everything.
We Greeks invented civilization, but we've always been ugly as carcasses.
You Anglo-Saxons have always been as beautiful as gods...even if your glorious history begins in the Middle Ages.
be satisfied with what you are

 

[Pegg]

people everywhere on every continent and of every religion have behaved in very uncivil and inhumane ways.

From very religious to very irreligious people, they can all act in despicable ways. Its not a question of nationality imo.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm also not a fan of the Roman conceptualization of "civilized vs. dirty barbarians", seeing as it was MY people they were calling barbaric while they were tossing their unwanted babies in trash dumps.

My half-brother's family is from Germany, and in a family book one of his uncles had written, it tries to make the claim that their family, who has a very German name, was a part of the "civilized metropolis loving" Romans fighting off the "barbaric hordes." It's pretty bad when Roman ethnocentrism has you playing make-believe that your ancestors are who they aren't and your real ancestors are nothing more than brutal savages.

 

[Estro Felino]

My half-brother's family is from Germany, and in a family book one of his uncles had written, it tries to make the claim that their family, who has a very German name, was a part of the "civilized metropolis loving" Romans fighting off the "barbaric hordes." It's pretty bad when Roman ethnocentrism has you playing make-believe that your ancestors are who they aren't and your real ancestors are nothing more than brutal savages.

do you know what Tacitus wrote about the Germanic tribes (II century AD)?
He wrote that the German husbands were faithful to their wives.
and the wives were faithful to their husband. This is pathetic, besides being squalid.
For me this is sign of cultural regress...because Romans were open-minded and in fact they used to cheat on one another.
Sexual freedom is sign of great civilization.
and in fact, empress Messalina, who was the richest woman in the empire, on the nights she fled from the palace and she sold her body.
yes, she was a prostitute in disguise. Not for money. But for the happiness of her body

 

[Sees]

do you know what Tacitus wrote about the Germanic tribes (II century AD)?
He wrote that the German husbands were faithful to their wives.
and the wives were faithful to their husband. This is pathetic, besides being squalid.
For me this is sign of cultural regress...because Romans were open-minded and in fact they used to cheat on one another.
Sexual freedom is sign of great civilization.
and in fact, empress Messalina, who was the richest woman in the empire, on the nights she fled from the palace and she sold her body.
yes, she was a prostitute in disguise. Not for money. But for the happiness of her body

They were monogamous in general but as real, actual people...there would be plenty of variation. Remember those are second, third, fourth, etc. hand accounts and not by inner circle people privy to gossip and secrets of the communities. I don't think of my own monogamous relationship as being pathetic

Sometimes I don't know if you are seriously throwing your mind out there or playing with the shock value but it is fun to watch

 

[Estro Felino]

They were monogamous in general but as real, actual people...there would be plenty of variation. Remember those are second, third, fourth, etc. hand accounts and not by inner circle people privy to gossip and secrets of the communities. I don't think of my own monogamous relationship as being pathetic

You misread me. I didn't mean that monogamy is squalid. I meant that monogamy is a choice that must be respected. A long as it's a choice and not a cultural imposition.
Repression is not sign of civilization. that's what I meant

 

[Riverwolf]

no...please...do you think that cabin is sign of civilization?
what about this theater...which is in my town (fifth cent BC)?

Look further in my post. I said that I wouldn't consider them civilizations, because they didn't live in cities. I was simply pointing out that their standard of living was significantly higher than you were implying.

But here's the thing. Seeing as the Celts and Germans built their living structures out of wood (far easier than using stone), they very well could have lived in what we'd call cities, making them very much civilized, and we've just yet to find any remains of their cities. Remember that the Romans called Greeks uncivilized simply because they weren't Roman.

After all, before the Celtic and Germanic Tribes existed, the native Britannians had built what could only be described as a city in Salisbury Plain, around Stonehenge. Sure, it would have been made of huts, but there were a freaking lot of them. A city is defined not by the material or architectural sophistication of the structures, but by the number of the inhabitants.

well...honey...you can't have everything.
We Greeks invented civilization, but we've always been ugly as carcasses.
You Anglo-Saxons have always been as beautiful as gods...even if your glorious history begins in the Middle Ages.
be satisfied with what you are

That may be true for the Saxon side of the Anglo-Saxons, since the Saxon Tribe that we think of with that name was a confederation formed during the Migration Age, from a Tribe that may or may not have mention before that(there's some question as to whether Ptolemy's Geographia mentions them or not). But the Anglii are well before that, being one of the Tribes mentioned by Tacitus. We lived in Jutland, and so share a common heritage with the people who now live there, the Danes. We very much have a history that goes back before the Migration Age. Trust me, wē Gārdena in gær dagum þeod cyninga þrym gefrūnon hū ða Æþelingas ellen fremedon.

And by the way, I'm only Anglo-Irish on my Mother's side. On my Father's side, even though he has some Irish, I'm very much Greek, and see nothing inherently ugly about my Paternal People. We also didn't invent civilization; the Minoans were the first European civilization, and are still younger than Egypt, Harappa, and Sumer.

...isn't Sicily part of Italy?

 

[Riverwolf]

You misread me. I didn't mean that monogamy is squalid. I meant that monogamy is a choice that must be respected. A long as it's a choice and not a cultural imposition.
Repression is not sign of civilization. that's what I meant

Then the Romans were incredibly uncivilized, and should be taken off your list. After all, repression of anything non-Roman was their favorite pastime.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then the Romans were incredibly uncivilized, and should be taken off your list. After all, repression of anything non-Roman was their favorite pastime.

They were still quite civilized....just not with your preferred flavor of fairness & compassion.

 

[ShivaFan]

Ancient India is left off. So I cannot vote.

EDIT UPDATE
In addition, the influence of ancient India extends beyond India proper with Hindu Kingdoms in Cambodia, Thailand and Indonesia. In addition the Indian born philosophy and "religion" of Buddhism extends out from India to large areas of Asia.

Also the "others", viz Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians, are in my opinion distinct and each their own just as Jew verse Roman are. They cannot be grouped, other than Persians (Iran, viz Aryan) are in the Indo-Euro (and Arya) umbrella as well as some aspects of ancient Iraq-Syria though much more obscure. Ancient China was also completely left off.

So no vote from me. And actually there are many, many overlaps between all these.

 

[Estro Felino]

And by the way, I'm only Anglo-Irish on my Mother's side. On my Father's side, even though he has some Irish, I'm very much Greek, and see nothing inherently ugly about my Paternal People.

please...let's be serious. Saying that Greeks, compared to British are not ugly, is an insult. I am absolutely sure that you have Nordic features, that is, fair skin and light eyes.
I have olive skin, dark eyes and a long Greek nose.
so saying that we are not ugly is a cruel game towards a person like me, with whom nature has already been cruel enough

...isn't Sicily part of Italy?

Sicily was called Magna Graecia because Sicily was practically colonized by Greeks. And in fact almost all Sicilians, especially those who live in ancient Greek colonies, look like Greeks. Me too.
The Greeks brought up culture, but also very ugly genes.
I have this nose: do you think Cleopatra was pretty? she was Greek...