The myriad proofs for the exsitence of God

[cottage]

i'm pretty sure I'm screwing this thread organisation up severely. but i'll press on.

you also said>> So you must suspend reason and call it 'faith', because as mentioned earlier you can't believe what you can't believe.

True. And also the reciprocal is true. You can't disbelieve what you believe.

Not quite. You can't believe and disbelieve at the same time, but you can disbelieve what you formerly believed. But if a thing is literally unbelievable, because of a contradiction for example, then it cannot be believed.

Premise>>>God really does exist and the bible was "authored" by Him. If so, then in the bible you will find the verses I've included in these posts. And, according to the premise....Faith is given and is immutable. It can't be nullified or ignored. It is a spiritual "proof" of God etc. And, no doubt those who have this faith and communicate with God believe in God. Irrevocably.

if the premise is true....Faith is the Only proof. And those who "suffer" from it (bit of a joke there...) actually have the undubitable proof you are asking for. And it can't be given, but it is the proof.

Reason is not forsaken here...if God does indeed exist and faith is the proof. Just the opposite. In either case....it's impossible to unbelieve what you believe. It would be irrational to deny what you believe as true. Don't you think?

No, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. As mentioned previously, belief and unbelief cannot occur at the same time, but belief that something is true does not amount to a true belief.

It seems irrational to you because once you remove yourself from the premise, you believe that the premise is not true because of what you believe....you won't believe anything (within reason) unless it is proven. You are the Thomas of the bible. Notice that Christ commanded Thomas to stop doubting and believe. Thomas didn't just decide to obey Christ all of a sudden and start believing. As you have said and I have agreed....not possible. God made him believe. He gave Him faith. Which is again....the evidence of things unseen. Then Thomas, once He had the evidence (the proof you also require) ...he believed.

Ok...drop the premise and you have your rationality that is opposed to a faulty God, therefore you actually that believe the God of the Bible (and in fact just any such real creator) couldn't exist. Or at least you hope He doesn't, given your opinion of Him as witnessed by your cognitive senses, historical accounts and biblical accounts. Very rational. You would be a nutbar if you believed in God without the requisite faith (evidence) to compell you to. And I am unable to reject the proof of faith. If I attempted it, I would consider myself a nutbar as well.

A man says ‘God told me to go out and kill’. Another says ‘God exists and the Bible is true.’ The first example, a madman, we describe politely as psychotic. The second example simply describes a person of faith. This certainly isn’t to imply that believers suffer from psychosis, but there is a common identifier: in both cases it is a reflection of brain states. Neither the madman, nor the person in the street who has religious faith, is giving us any true information. All they are revealing to us is the content of their minds. So faith is nothing on its own. There has to be a corresponding truth, and faith isn't evidence of truth. If I, as Doubting Cottage, am exhorted to have faith, is it not reasonable for me to ask: 'faith in what?' I very strongly suspect that believers have an inclination or a disposition to believe, which is prior to the object of belief.

A ‘frubal’? Er, I’m not entirely sure myself what these are or what they represent. I think they’re supposed to be some kind of award or merit. I’ll let the other contributors explain.

 

[cottage]

[FONT=&quot]Greetings Cottage. There is one, but it involves a totally different approach from what has been discussed so far in this thread. Instead of trying to get logical arguments from individuals that you can argue against this approach calls for you to find out about God for yourself. This can be done by following the guidance and perennial knowledge from the religion founders to look within. Check these out taken from "Essential Spirituality" by Roger Walsh: [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]The kingdom of heaven is within you. (Jesus, Christianity)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Those who know themselves know their Lord. (Mohammad, Islam)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]He is in all, and all is in Him. (Judaism)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Those who know completely their own nature, know heaven. (Mencius, Confucianism)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]In the depths of the soul, one sees the Divine, the One. (The Chinese Book of Changes)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Atman [individual consciousness] and Brahman [universal consciousness] are one. (Hinduism)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Look within, you are the Buddha. (Buddhism)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Looking within can lead to a realization that has been termed Awakening or Enlightenment among other terms.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a..1[/FONT]

You speak about 'looking within' but what does that mean? To me, that is no more than a readiness to believe that particular doctrines are true.

My view is that some people are psychologically disposed to religious/spiritual beliefs.

 

[Thief]

Do I detect a bias in your last post?
As if to say 'disposed' might be equivalent to 'mentally challenged'?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Do I detect a bias in your last post?
As if to say 'disposed' might be equivalent to 'mentally challenged'?

Disposed is merely a tendency or likelihood. I suspect your interpretation of bias is due to bias.

 

[Thief]

Have you got something more?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Have you got something more?

Nothing else was required. I try to engage in the practice of saying what is needed - no more, no less. Is there something else that you want?

 

[cottage]

Do I detect a bias in your last post?
As if to say 'disposed' might be equivalent to 'mentally challenged'?

If that's what you think then you misunderstand the meaning of the term or you have an ulterior motive in making such an outrageous comment.

No, a disposition or inclination to religious belief most certainly is not equivalent to 'mentally challenged'.

 

[Thief]

Nothing else was required. I try to engage in the practice of saying what is needed - no more, no less. Is there something else that you want?

No....I'm doing just fine!!!!!

 

[McBell]

No....I'm doing just fine!!!!!

I remember those days.

I just can not afford them drugs any more....

 

[Troublemane]

Unless you know what god is how do you "know" X is NOT god?[/font]

Because 'God', as everyone knows, is gigantic and has a white beard, and he will smite you if you talk back to him.:yes:

In all seriousness, however, I do believe humans have the capacity to know the divine when it appears. Simply because its divine, theres no question about it. Beleeeeve me, you will know when it shows up! :angel2:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because 'God', as everyone knows, is gigantic and has a white beard, and he will smite you if you talk back to him.:yes:

In all seriousness, however, I do believe humans have the capacity to know the divine when it appears. Simply because its divine, theres no question about it. Beleeeeve me, you will know when it shows up! :angel2:

I've seen it show up before. There's always a simpler, more rational explanation. Then again, all humans don't have the capacity, or knowledge, to ascertain this.

 

[zackcool]

Hi to all.
In trying to prove the existance of god in itself is disapproving god existance.
What ever prove that comes forth will be met by the same amount of disapproval.
This is b'cause many so often have already have their own perception of what they want to believe regardless.
So let us get back to basic and find our true self instead.
To do that, we only need to look at our own self.
How every part is beautifully balance and in proportion to each other..
with each and every part being there for its own specific reason.
Where a piece of meat beats rythematically ,full of purpose to bring forth life as we know it.Chance?
In finding the true self,some important aspects need to be adhere to.
That is true sincerity and honesty in wanting to know the truth.
The ego which every so often comes as a voice of reason need to be put aside and the only tools required is ponder and reflect.
Imagine this,if you have never seen a tree before and a man comes to you and shows you an apple seed.He then go on to say that this tiny thing will grow into something huge,sprouting green things that provide shelter and producing food that helps to sustain life.Would you have believe?
Point being,the mind is only capable of understanding and grasping from previous experience guided by the law of cause and effect of that specific time.Whatever outside that range of thought is taken to be false.Reflect.
The true self resides within you and it has no limitations nor boundaries.

 

[Thief]

That was very nice. Thank you.

I hope you're up for the rebuttals that are bound to follow.

And how do you get so many frubals for just one post?

A lot of people must like you already!!!!!

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I have no idea what that jibbersih in #192 was supposed to mean. Even if you wade thru the poor syntax and correct the grammar is STILL says nothing.

We only understand what we can understand. Gee, Dick Tracy who clued you?

And given that truism what would reflection get you that you would not otherwise understand?

 

[zackcool]

hi to all.
Understanding as in seeing comes in different levels,subjected to veils thats covering it.
If we look at the human form at base level ,we might see it as just moving flesh.
look deeper n with a little understanding of the human organs,we might find our self in awe with its capabilities and design.Look deeper still, and we will see how the impossible had became possible.For surely a creature of chance would never had been this great.And at a deeper level still,we will see the miracles of it all..
Ponder & reflect.
Pondering as in reflection is a great way for you to get attune to your true self.
What we think we do not understand,might just be the opposite.If only we give it more time...
Remember, what ever we see be it our self or the whole universe,we only see it in our mind.Pictures that form from light that goes through optical processes and recides at the very back of our brain.So in reality,the whole big universe is only as big as the pictures projected.
As in seeing,hearing and senses too are subjected to what the brain perceived.
So is it us who tells the brain what to see or is it the opposite.And who exactly is doing the viewing?//
Please ponder and reflect.

 

[Thief]

You tagged a lot of viewpoints in one posting.
Break it up and start several threads.
You'll get all the rebuttal you can handle ...and then some.

 

[autonomous1one1]

You speak about 'looking within' but what does that mean? To me, that is no more than a readiness to believe that particular doctrines are true.

My view is that some people are psychologically disposed to religious/spiritual beliefs.

[FONT=&quot] Greetings. Thank you for responding and for your question, Cottage. It is an excellent question and one which many people do not seem to ask, assuming that they know the answer. In the intent of post #163, ‘looking within’ and ‘know thyself’ are meant to give similar guidance for one to explore and know one’s inner being to the greatest depths to discover one’s true self. From one perspective this is the most important discovery that a human can make and is realized to be the source and aim of religions. One need only seek understanding and need not have a ‘readiness to believe’ or a ‘psychological disposition to religious/spiritual beliefs.’ [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Looking within is perhaps a deviation from your intended direction in this thread but it is a way for you to find the proof for yourself. More can be said if this is not too big a variance from what you have intended, but one can understand if you do not pursue it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps Mr. Cool already knows.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a..1[/FONT]

…..The ego which every so often comes as a voice of reason need to be put aside and the only tools required is ponder and reflect.
….The true self resides within you and it has no limitations nor boundaries.

 

[cottage]

Greetings. Thank you for responding and for your question, Cottage. It is an excellent question and one which many people do not seem to ask, assuming that they know the answer. In the intent of post #163, ‘looking within’ and ‘know thyself’ are meant to give similar guidance for one to explore and know one’s inner being to the greatest depths to discover one’s true self. From one perspective this is the most important discovery that a human can make and is realized to be the source and aim of religions. One need only seek understanding and need not have a ‘readiness to believe’ or a ‘psychological disposition to religious/spiritual beliefs.’

Looking within is perhaps a deviation from your intended direction in this thread but it is a way for you to find the proof for yourself. More can be said if this is not too big a variance from what you have intended, but one can understand if you do not pursue it.

Perhaps Mr. Cool already knows.

Regards,
a..1

When I look within myself, that is to say introspect, I see only ideas and notions, some of which are distinct and self-evident and so have the necessary substance of truth, while others appear fleeting and conditional. And in the former category I must admit to identifying a subsection: things that also have the appearance of certainty. In this mode I can easily conceive of a Being who is the cause of all things and whose non-existence is as impossible as the idea of a rectangle with fewer than four right angles. But when I explore this notion further and pronounce that 'There is no Being', I can find no error in the statement. This is because the non-existence of the Being is as clear to me as the idea of its existence. I see nothing that corrects or denies these perceptions, therefore I see nothing within me that proves what it is I'm supposed to see.

 

[zackcool]

Hi all.(thief,great name),
Looking within,what is it that we r suppose to find ...
It all starts with silence.,,
Then comes the feeling of great calmness ,where the eyes could'nt see,and the ears could'nt hear.
Emptiness....
Realization will come of how we are all connected and come from one original source.
We will see colours, we will see the light..
We will then see the real reason of being n what is required to go back to the original place of creation,when the time comes.
Tears will trickle on its own n sadness arise.
The body will vibrate ,and humming sound follows.
Electricity seems to flow and visions cloudy ;
Realization will come of how petty we've been in chasing the world.
Realization will come of how ruthless we've been in satisfying the ego..
Worldly troubles will seems trivial and of non importance.
We will then be in touch with the inner one, what some have come to call concience.
We will then see greatness in every creations and will always be guided.
The ego will shrink and kindness suffice.
Anger dissipates and love arise...

What follows after this will be a real surprise,but if the wrong action is taken,
You'll find yourself back to your original state .(but with knowledge)
Certain things can't be disclosed....

 

[Thief]

Here in this space I had posted a personal experience...as I thought it to be related to the topic at hand.
I have reconsidered....and withdrawn this one essay.


Z-Cool...I hope you are not disappointed.
But sometimes a personal experience should remain that way.