The Myths of Christianity

[Muffled]

[/color]

That's okay, you needn't be up to speed on Greek philosophy. The classical Greeks held that resurrection was icky. This view was preponderant even in Jesus' day. They believed in life after death, whereas Christians believed in life after life after death. The Christians, as you say, borrowed the notion that the soul (whatever that is) survives death and provides the metaphysical continuity between the person that dies and the person that rises. If I die and completely cease to exist, what gets raised at the resurrection? A facsimile to be sure, but it's not "me." In other words, if I cease to exist at death, I have no hope of continuing experience later. A simulacrum, one that looks and thinks like me and has my memories maybe, but not me.

Well, you can call it a spirit or soul or shakra or pranabinduwhatchamacallit. Whatever label you give it, it's that thing that provides the metaphysical continuity between the two bodies.

I think that would be extremely difficult to prove. At least Jesus uses the word spirit before any of the letters are written (And even Paul's letters would be more apt to reflect his pharisaical training under Gamaliel). Then the letters of Peter, James and John are written by Jews also. The only Greek in the bunch is Luke and he states that he is only reporting what eyewitnesses have said.

The Bible calls it a spirit. God is a spirit according to Jesus. You make it sound as though the spirit were an extension of the body but the reality is that the body is just a convenient vehicle for the spirit.

 

[bain-druie]

the reality is that the body is just a convenient vehicle for the spirit.

I think that would be extremely difficult to prove. This is not a description of any agreed-upon 'reality', it is merely your belief which you base apparently on the Bible. Many people here do not believe in the spirit, and many others (myself included) do not hold to the Dualist view that the physical realm is inherently 'lower' than or less important than the spiritual one. They are not the same, true enough; but they overlap, and neither is 'more important'.

 

[sojourner]

I think that would be extremely difficult to prove. This is not a description of any agreed-upon 'reality', it is merely your belief which you base apparently on the Bible. Many people here do not believe in the spirit, and many others (myself included) do not hold to the Dualist view that the physical realm is inherently 'lower' than or less important than the spiritual one. They are not the same, true enough; but they overlap, and neither is 'more important'.

In my study of Celtic Xy (which was declared heretical), I have found that they do not espouse the typical, Platonic view that crept very early into Gentile Xy. I don't care much for it myself, and would like to practice a more Celtic version of Xy.

 

[Muffled]

I think that would be extremely difficult to prove. This is not a description of any agreed-upon 'reality', it is merely your belief which you base apparently on the Bible. Many people here do not believe in the spirit, and many others (myself included) do not hold to the Dualist view that the physical realm is inherently 'lower' than or less important than the spiritual one. They are not the same, true enough; but they overlap, and neither is 'more important'.

I agree.

Reality does not have to be proved or agreed upon. It simply is.

Without a doubt this is true to some extent. I accept many things from witnesses who I respect who tell me there are atoms and molecules even though I have never seen any. The Bible is witness to God saying there is a spirit. There is no better witness than someone who always speaks the truth and knows everything.

There ae people who believe banks should be robbed. A person's belief does not have to be rational.

I suppose the belief is based on the material world being temporal and the spiritual world eternal. It is difficult to think of that which passes away as having more value than that which is always preent.

 

[Pegg]

I have not attacked you.
I also asked for you to define the word "soul".

In Hebrew the original word for Soul is ne′phesh and in Greek it is psy‧khe′
Throughout the Old and New testament it describes the living person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College, made this comment about the word soul: "The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467 says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life and its various vital manifestations: breathing, blood, desire. The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject”

So the soul is the living breathing person. As Issac Newton put it, "you dont have a soul, you are a soul"

 

[logician]

I agree.

There is no better witness than someone who always speaks the truth and knows everything.

Never met such a person.

 

[Muffled]

Never met such a person.

Actually you have because you have met me on here and I speak the words as God gives them to me. However it is not necessary to meet a witness to believe his words.

 

[McBell]

Actually you have because you have met me on here and I speak the words as God gives them to me. However it is not necessary to meet a witness to believe his words.

 

[sojourner]

Actually you have because you have met me on here and I speak the words as God gives them to me. However it is not necessary to meet a witness to believe his words.

Humility, not hubris, is one of Christ's virtues...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First, define "soul"
Second, prove it exists.

Genesis [2v7] helps define 'soul' because after Adam received the breath of life then, at that point, Adam became a living soul.
Adam did not exist before he was created from the dust of the ground.
Once Adam stopped breathing then Adam became a dead soul or lifeless soul or person.

No where does it say Adam came to 'have' a soul or came to 'possess' a soul,
but that Adam was a soul.

Ezekiel [18v4,20] states the soul that sins dies. Adam sinned, Adam died.
We all sin. We all die. We exist as living Adam did as a living soul.
At death we become as Adam became a dead or lifeless soul or person.

 

[sojourner]

Genesis [2v7] helps define 'soul' because after Adam received the breath of life then, at that point, Adam became a living soul.
Adam did not exist before he was created from the dust of the ground.
Once Adam stopped breathing then Adam became a dead soul or lifeless soul or person.

No where does it say Adam came to 'have' a soul or came to 'possess' a soul,
but that Adam was a soul.

Ezekiel [18v4,20] states the soul that sins dies. Adam sinned, Adam died.
We all sin. We all die. We exist as living Adam did as a living soul.
At death we become as Adam became a dead or lifeless soul or person.

And yet Jesus clearly speaks of eternal life...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think that would be extremely difficult to prove. This is not a description of any agreed-upon 'reality', it is merely your belief which you base apparently on the Bible. Many people here do not believe in the spirit, and many others (myself included) do not hold to the Dualist view that the physical realm is inherently 'lower' than or less important than the spiritual one. They are not the same, true enough; but they overlap, and neither is 'more important'.

Interesting post ^above^.

According to Scripture God created the spirit realm first.
One person expressed that God was in the business of creation.
Like some fathers have also done, God took in his Son into the business.
Kind of like "Father&Son" who decided to expand the family business.
After finishing the spirit or angelic world, then the creation expansion widened out to include the material/physical realm or world.

Both those in the heavenly realm and earthly realm were offered everlasting life as long as obedient to God way of ruling. So the same important rules apply to both. Both places have the same theocratic standard of obeying God's will for them.

No one goes to the heavenly spirit realm to die in heaven.
[even Satan and his demons are cast out of heaven]
The death problem exists on earth.
Just as God did not intend death for heaven,
God did not intend death for earth.
At death one looses one's life force of spirit of life.
Only at the time of resurrection is one's life force or spirit activated.
Since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can.
Jesus can and will during his 1000-year reign over earth. -Acts 24v15
The majority of mankind will be resurrected to life on earth as the prophet Daniel looked forward. [12vs2,13]
Those that are called Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew [25v40] are the only humans that will go to heaven upon resurrection.
Also, there is a difference with the sheep-like people of Matthew [25v32] because at this time of separation the living sheep remain alive, are preserved alive, and saved right into the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth and they have the prospect of never dying because death begins to stop at the time of Jesus 'glory' -[Matt 25v31].
That is why Rev [21vs4,5] can state: death will be no more.
Since there is no death in heaven,
then it is the death found on earth that will come to an end or will be no more.
-1 Cor 15v26; Isaiah 25v8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And yet Jesus clearly speaks of eternal life...

Yes eternal life or everlasting life.
But is eternal life the same as being immortal?

We know God is immortal, having life from within himself, according to
Psalm 90v2.
We know God granted or gave to Jesus to have life from within [John 5v26] to also become immortal.

However, both heavenly angels and humans to live on earth are offered not immortality [being death proof] but offered eternal life or everlasting life on condition of obedience. Adam could only live forever if obedient. Satan and his fallen angels or demons once disobedient lost eternal heavenly life and as Hebrews [2v14 b] says even Satan will be destroyed.

So when Jesus speaks of eternal or everlasting life, then Jesus is giving us the same offer as was presented originally to Adam to be able to live forever on a beautiful paradisaic earth as long as obedient.
So not all gain immortality as God gifted to Jesus, but most have the prospect of everlasting life in view starting with Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Unlike Adam, by the end of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, all those living will have proven themselves willingly obedient and worthy of living forever.

 

[sojourner]

Yes eternal life or everlasting life.
But is eternal life the same as being immortal?

We know God is immortal, having life from within himself, according to
Psalm 90v2.
We know God granted or gave to Jesus to have life from within [John 5v26] to also become immortal.

However, both heavenly angels and humans to live on earth are offered not immortality [being death proof] but offered eternal life or everlasting life on condition of obedience. Adam could only live forever if obedient. Satan and his fallen angels or demons once disobedient lost eternal heavenly life and as Hebrews [2v14 b] says even Satan will be destroyed.

So when Jesus speaks of eternal or everlasting life, then Jesus is giving us the same offer as was presented originally to Adam to be able to live forever on a beautiful paradisaic earth as long as obedient.
So not all gain immortality as God gifted to Jesus, but most have the prospect of everlasting life in view starting with Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Unlike Adam, by the end of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, all those living will have proven themselves willingly obedient and worthy of living forever.

I disagree for a plethora of reasons, the most compelling of which is that the ancients didn't think as individualistically as we do. Their concern is for the community. Jesus offers no condition that would divide the community -- and certainly none that would affect an act of love on his part.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I disagree for a plethora of reasons, the most compelling of which is that the ancients didn't think as individualistically as we do. Their concern is for the community. Jesus offers no condition that would divide the community -- and certainly none that would affect an act of love on his part.

Isn't Jesus the one who fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed?
Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

The only exception Jesus talked about was Matthew 12v32. [Hebrews 6vs4-6]
The 'goat-like' people of Matthew chapter 25 are judged by Jesus on the basis of how they treat [or did not treat] Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40 that are living on earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' or the time right before the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.

Because [Matt 24v14] shows the good news of God's kingdom is a global message proclaimed before the 'cut off' time shows the goat-like ones will not be able to plead ignorance that they did not have the opportunity to hear the good news.

So the majority of mankind [community] will not be divided but re-united.
-Acts 24v15.

 

[sojourner]

Isn't Jesus the one who fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed?
Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

The only exception Jesus talked about was Matthew 12v32. [Hebrews 6vs4-6]
The 'goat-like' people of Matthew chapter 25 are judged by Jesus on the basis of how they treat [or did not treat] Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40 that are living on earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' or the time right before the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.

Because [Matt 24v14] shows the good news of God's kingdom is a global message proclaimed before the 'cut off' time shows the goat-like ones will not be able to plead ignorance that they did not have the opportunity to hear the good news.

So the majority of mankind [community] will not be divided but re-united.
-Acts 24v15.

Mush. Complete mush. I don't see how you can even begin to compare Genesis with Revelation, for starters. They present two entirely different world views and two entirely different types of literature and two entirely different cultures.
Your practice here creates nothing but an abysmal Frankenstein's monster -- roughly-cobbled together parts from different sources.

 

[logician]

Isn't Jesus the one who fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed?
Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

-Acts 24v15.

No, that is an interpretation that is unsupported.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, that is an interpretation that is unsupported.

Not unsupported by Scripture.

Only two 'seeds' are mentioned at Gen 3v15.

There is only one 'seed' [Gen 3v15] of the symbolic woman [Gal 4vs26,28; Rev 12vs1-6] that bruises and crushes the serpent in his head.
According to Romans 16v20 that fatal death bruise to his head is Satan's head. Satan, after the thousand-year reign of Christ over earth, is destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
-Rev 20vs1-3.

Jesus also identifies the serpent's earthly seed at Matthew 23v33; John 8v44.

Galatians 3v16 assures that there is only one promised 'seed' of Abraham.
Not from Abraham's 'seeds' but through Sarah, through Isaac, through Christ Jesus. -Gen 21v12 B.

So where in Scripture is Jesus not the 'seed' of Abraham that will bless all families and all nations fulfilled at Rev 22v2?

 

[sojourner]

Not unsupported by Scripture.

Only two 'seeds' are mentioned at Gen 3v15.

There is only one 'seed' [Gen 3v15] of the symbolic woman [Gal 4vs26,28; Rev 12vs1-6] that bruises and crushes the serpent in his head.
According to Romans 16v20 that fatal death bruise to his head is Satan's head. Satan, after the thousand-year reign of Christ over earth, is destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
-Rev 20vs1-3.

Jesus also identifies the serpent's earthly seed at Matthew 23v33; John 8v44.

Galatians 3v16 assures that there is only one promised 'seed' of Abraham.
Not from Abraham's 'seeds' but through Sarah, through Isaac, through Christ Jesus. -Gen 21v12 B.

So where in Scripture is Jesus not the 'seed' of Abraham that will bless all families and all nations fulfilled at Rev 22v2?

Ask any Jew. They'll be happy to tell you that Jesus is not implied in any way by the OT.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ask any Jew. They'll be happy to tell you that Jesus is not implied in any way by the OT.

Then who is the Messiah of Daniel 9 vs25,26?
The weeks of years Daniel wrote about marked the time frame for the people.
Why were the people of the first century in expectation [Luke 3v15] of the Messiah if there was no indication?