The Nation of Islam; Your thoughts on this

[TashaN]

All descendants of Prophet Muhammad are not between Ahlul Bayt.Only 12 Caliphs/Imams and Hazrat Fatima(peace be upon them) from the descendants of Prophet Muhammaf are between Alul Bayt whom Allah has purified them with a through purification.

You said, "The Jews say they are special because of their heritage. I see no difference between your belief and theirs .. oh well!"

I know this saying of your is the Propaganda of Wahhabi scholars against Shia. What is indeed an slander. My brother I love you and advise you that do not hear their wrong sayings. They say very lies in their TV chanels against Shia.

Allah has said,
Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;

So has Allah the beliefs of Jews?

Also Prophet Muhammad has said, إن مثل أهل بيتي کمثل سفينة نوح من رکبها نجا و من تخلف عنها هلک

The example of my Ahlul Bayt is like the example of the boat of the Noah. Whoever boards it will be saved and whoever disobeys will be destroyed.

Hakim says this Hadith is Sahih, according to the oponions of Muslim[هذا حديث صحيح علي شرط مسلم]. Also Haythami has said that this Hadith has very chains of the narrators that strong each other[و جاء من طرق کثيرة يقوي بعضها بعضا].
Sources: Al-Mustadrak 'Alas-Sahihayn, vol. 2, pg. 343/ Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhrighah by ibn Hajar al-Maythami, vol. 2, pg. 675.

So, did Prophet Muhammad have the beliefs of Jews?
Sobhanallah.

Brother @muhammad_isa is right. Jews thought they were the chosen people no matter what they believe in and what they did, but Allah already told us the truth in the Quran. Some Muslims are misguided like them. May Allah guide them to the truth.

(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)."
Quran 5:18

Not all Jews are descenats of Al Imran, and not All Imran are Muslims. Those who are of the house of Prophets are only those who believe in the message. What did Allah say about one of Noah's sons who wasn't a believer?

He said: "O Nuh! he is not of thy family: for his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!"
Quran 11:46

 

[TashaN]

Abu Talib(peace be upon him) was Muslim. See, Was Abu Talib a Muslim?

Ok, I already replied in that thread.

 

[TashaN]

Almighty God has not directly spoken to me
I'm just a simple human being that tries to use their intellect that God has given us..

Almighty God is spiritual .. He is not part of the physical universe, so we need to understand these things in context.

When it comes to Almighty God's physical form, we cannot comprehend. Language is an important form of communication. It contains all sorts of metaphors as well as literal constructs.

eg. the Qur'an literally says that "the sun set in a muddy spring"
Does that mean that the sun orbits round the earth? Of course not, it's just how we put sentences together.

Saying "My hands are outstretched with provision for my family" surely doesn't mean that I'm throwing things at them

Yes, i understand of course. I got mixed up in replies, lol. I thought i was replying to mujtaba while i was replying to your post because he claimed God don't have hands.

You see, I'm not arguing whether he has physical or spiritual hands, but merely saying it was mentioned in the Quran that he actually has hands. If we said he doesn't, it means he is less than us, if we said he has physical hands, then we are saying he is like us humans, that's why it's better to just say he has hands in a manner that fits his greatness which we might not completely comprehend. Makes sense?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You see, I'm not arguing whether he has physical or spiritual hands, but merely saying it was mentioned in the Quran that he actually has hands. If we said he doesn't, it means he is less than us, if we said he has physical hands, then we are saying he is like us humans, that's why it's better to just say he has hands in a manner that fits his greatness which we might not completely comprehend. Makes sense?

Yes .. I have no problem with that of course

 

[mojtaba]

There are many wrong information here but let us now focus on one thing, you are still imposing your own interpretations and conclusions as i can see. You have to show us where does it say that part of the verse was revealed separately, not who is ahl albair and who isn't.

.

You said, "There are many wrong information here"

Please say one of those many! wrong information.

That doesn't answer my question. I'm not talking about the love of Ahul albait because that's common sense. I aseked, can we reach to God directly or we can only reach him through ahul albait?

Thank you.

I do not know what is exactly your point. Please elaborate your question.

According to authentic Hadiths of Prophet in Sunni books, we should follow both Quran and Ahlul Bayt to become guided and Prophet will ask us about them.

Also Imam Ali, the first Imam(according to Hadith Ghadir), who is between Ahlul Bayt, is the gate of the city of the knowledge of Prophet that we only through him can reach to the knowledge of Prophet. Because we through the knowledge of Prophet reach to Allah, so only through his Ahlul Bayt we can reach Him.
(Recall the Hadith,
Prophet Muhammad has said that, «أنا مدينة العلم و علي بابها، فمن أراد العلم فليأتها من بابها»
"I am the city of the knowledge and Ali is the gate of this city, so whoever want to seek the knowledge and wisdome, must enter [to the city] from its gate."

Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani in his book, Lisanul Mizan, vol. 2, pg 122, and also Hakim in his book, al-Mustadrak 'AlasSahihayn(i.e., Sahih Muslim and Bukhari), vol. 3, pg. 127 and other Sunni imams of Hadiths have said that this Hadith is Sahih and authentic.)

Also Prophet had said that his Ahlul Bayt are like the boat of the Noah, whoever disobeys them, will be disroyed. (Recall the Hadith, إن مثل أهل بيتي کمثل سفينة نوح من رکبها نجا و من تخلف عنها هلک

"The example of my Ahlul Bayt is like the example of the boat of the Noah. Whoever boards it would be saved and whoever disobeys would be destroyed."

Hakim says this Hadith is Sahih, according to the oponions of Muslim[هذا حديث صحيح علي شرط مسلم]. Also Haythami has said that this Hadith hasvery chains of the narrators that strongeach other[و جاء من طرق کثيرة يقوي بعضها بعضا].
Sources: Al-Mustadrak 'Alas-Sahihayn, vol. 2, pg. 343/ Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhrighah by ibn Hajar al-Maythami, vol. 2, pg. 675.)

So we should follow Ahlul Bayt to reach to God and being saved.

 

[mojtaba]

It should be said that we do not believe that because Ahlul Bayt are the relatives of Prophet, so they have a royal blood and we should obey them.

We believe that only because Allah has ordered us to follow them and has chosen them for our guidance we should follow them.

According to Sunni authentic Hadiths(ie., Hadith Thaqalayn, Hadith Qadir Khom, Hadith of Safinah Noah, Hadith of Bab Hittah, etc.), Prophet has said that we should follow both Quran and Ahlul Bayt. So because we believe that we should accept the orders of Prophet, we have accepted Ahlul Bayt as our guide after Prophet.

Here I do not see any common thing with Jews beliefs. So do not repeat such wrong sayings, please.

 

[mojtaba]

Allah says he has hands and you say he doesn't? if it is mutashabihat why do you go and interpret them? leave it as it is, as how Allah revealed them and don't impose your theory into it.

There is not any verse that directly says Allah Sobhanah has hands.

Qur'an itself has said that we should refer the Mutishabih verses to Muhkam ones. Because Qur'an says that Muhkam vrses are al-Umm al-kitab.
The decisive, unambiguous verses have been called. "Umm al-kitab"(basis of the Book)."al-Umm" literally means a thing to which another thing returns; in which it takes refuge. That is why the mother is called al-umm.

So, the Mutishabih(ambiguous) verses should be returned to Muhkam(decisive) verses and be interpreted by them.

3:7
It is He who has sent down to you the Book. Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are ambiguous.

Oh, so to you ahul albait are only 12? so Prophet Mohamed has only 12 relatives through all these 1400 years?

No. We believe that all the descendants of Prophet and his families are the relatives of Prophet.
Also we believe that the wives of Prophet are between his household.

But Ahlul Bayt in the Hadith of Thaqalayn, verse of at-Tat-hir, verse of al-Mawaddah fi al-Ghorba(loving of Prophet's relatives), Hadith of Safinah of Noah, Hadith of Bab Hittah, verse and Hadith of Mubahilah, etc. only refers to 12 Imams and Hadhrat Fatima.

For more clarification, it should be said that the term "Ahlul Bayt" has an religious meaning which has defined by Prophet in his sayings and only refers to 12 Imams and Hadhrat Fatimah, whom Allah has purified with a throughout purification and ordered us to follow them.
And also it has a non-religious meaning that refers to all of his households, like his wives.

 

[mojtaba]

Those who are of the house of Prophets are only those who believe in the message.

No. Zadakallahu Khayra.

Allah has said,
11:40
Until, when Our command came, and the Oven boiled, We said(to Noah), 'Embark in it two of every kind, and your household-except for him against whom the word has already been spoken- and whosoever believes.' And there believed not with him except a few.

In this verse, the household of the Prophet Noah has mentioned separately from the believers to his Message.

So, Ahl of Prophet Noah were different from the believers and conclusively, the house of Prophets are not only whoevere believe in their Message.

 

[TashaN]

I guess we need to discuss further about this but when i look up i see the thread title is "nation of Islam", lol.

Also we can't debate here as you know because this area is only for discussion. How about we continue in the same faith debate area by opening a new thread there?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/same-faith-debates.63/

 

[mojtaba]

Absolutely I am agree.

I am strongly ready to debate with Sunni brothers about the right of Imam Ali for leadership of Ummah after Prophet and about the first Khaliph of Rasulallah.

If you want that our discussion to be continued in the Debate section, I am agree.

 

[TashaN]

Absolutely I am agree.

I am strongly ready to debate with Sunni brothers about the right of Imam Ali for leadership of Ummah after Prophet and about the first Khaliph of Rasulallah.

If you want that our discussion to be continued in the Debate section, I am agree.

But we first have to pick a proper topic. Let's discuss something more useful to our life today as Muslims instead of something which happened in the past which doesn't benefit us in anyway. What do you think?

(134) That was a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.

(Quran 2:134)

 

[mojtaba]

But we first have to pick a proper topic. Let's discuss something more useful to our life today as Muslims instead of something which happened in the past which doesn't benefit us in anyway. What do you think?

(134) That was a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.

(Quran 2:134)

Unfortunately, you think that Wilayah and leadership of Imam Ali and other Ahlul Bayt are not critical and are not a important issue in the Islam.

We are not talk about what the Muslims of the past used to do, so that you have brought for me that verse.

We are talking about the order of Allah and his Prophet about the leadership of Muslims after Prophet.

According to Sahih Bukhari and Muslim and other Sahih Hadiths, the Caliphs of Prophet and Imams are 12 and the leadership will remain till the Day of Resurrection.

Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

I heard the Prophet (s) saying, "There will be twelve Muslim Rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Source, Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 93, Hadith 82

The Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Quraish are the leaders of the people, in the good and the bad, until the Day of Judgeme "

Source, Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Book 33, Hadith 70

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (S) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Hadith 8

See, when Prophet was going to talk about his 12 Caliphs, how others made sounds so that people can not hear the sound of Prophet. Indeed, they were those who said that Prophet do not know what is saying, when Prophet ordered Muslims to bring for him a paper, so that they write the Hadith of Prophet and then if they follow it, they shall not go astrey.

Also, According to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim, Islam is triumphant with its true leaders.

But see the saying of Muslims about the leadership of Hadhrat Abu Bakr,

Umar said,

إِنَّهُ بَلَغَنِي أَنَّ قَائِلاً مِنْكُمْ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ لَوْ مَاتَ عُمَرُ بَايَعْتُ فُلاَنًا‏.‏ فَلاَ يَغْتَرَّنَّ امْرُؤٌ أَنْ يَقُولَ إِنَّمَا كَانَتْ بَيْعَةُ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَلْتَةً وَتَمَّتْ أَلاَ وَإِنَّهَا قَدْ كَانَتْ كَذَلِكَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ وَقَى شَرَّهَا،​

I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and then it ended. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil.
Source, Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 86, Hadith 57
------------------------------
Also, Prophet has said,
"One who withdraws his band from obedience (to a Ruler from those 12 leaders who are untill the Day of Resurrection) will find no argument (in his defence) when he stands before Allah on the Day of Judgment, and one who dies without having bound himself by an oath of allegiance (to one of those 12 leaders) will die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahillyya.

Source, Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Hadith 90

So, have you bound yourself with one of those 12 Rulers by an oath of allegiance?

According to the other Hadiths, we must follow Ahlul Bayt. According to Hadith Ghadir, Prophet has said, whoever I am his leader, so Ali is his leader.
According to Hadith Thaqalayn, we must follow Ahlul Bayt and Quran.

According to Sahih Hadith in Sunni authentic books, Prophet has said that Ali is the Imam of Muttaghin.

According to Quran, there are a guide for every people.
According to Quran, Ahlul Bayt are purified with a throught purification.
According to Quran, we must obey those who vested in authority.

Al-Hamdulillah.

 

[TashaN]

Unfortunately, you think that Wilayah and leadership of Imam Ali and other Ahlul Bayt are not critical and are not a important issue in the Islam.

We are not talk about what the Muslims of the past used to do, so that you have brought for me that verse.

We are talking about the order of Allah and his Prophet about the leadership of Muslims after Prophet.

According to Sahih Bukhari and Muslim and other Sahih Hadiths, the Caliphs of Prophet and Imams are 12 and the leadership will remain till the Day of Resurrection.

Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

I heard the Prophet (s) saying, "There will be twelve Muslim Rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Source, Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 93, Hadith 82

The Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Quraish are the leaders of the people, in the good and the bad, until the Day of Judgeme "

Source, Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Book 33, Hadith 70

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (S) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Hadith 8

See, when Prophet was going to talk about his 12 Caliphs, how others made sounds so that people can not hear the sound of Prophet. Indeed, they were those who said that Prophet do not know what is saying, when Prophet ordered Muslims to bring for him a paper, so that they write the Hadith of Prophet and then if they follow it, they shall not go astrey.

Also, According to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim, Islam is triumphant with its true leaders.

But see the saying of Muslims about the leadership of Hadhrat Abu Bakr,

Umar said,

إِنَّهُ بَلَغَنِي أَنَّ قَائِلاً مِنْكُمْ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ لَوْ مَاتَ عُمَرُ بَايَعْتُ فُلاَنًا‏.‏ فَلاَ يَغْتَرَّنَّ امْرُؤٌ أَنْ يَقُولَ إِنَّمَا كَانَتْ بَيْعَةُ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَلْتَةً وَتَمَّتْ أَلاَ وَإِنَّهَا قَدْ كَانَتْ كَذَلِكَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ وَقَى شَرَّهَا،​

I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and then it ended. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil.
Source, Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 86, Hadith 57
------------------------------
Also, Prophet has said,
"One who withdraws his band from obedience (to a Ruler from those 12 leaders who are untill the Day of Resurrection) will find no argument (in his defence) when he stands before Allah on the Day of Judgment, and one who dies without having bound himself by an oath of allegiance (to one of those 12 leaders) will die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahillyya.

Source, Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Hadith 90

So, have you bound yourself with one of those 12 Rulers by an oath of allegiance?

According to the other Hadiths, we must follow Ahlul Bayt. According to Hadith Ghadir, Prophet has said, whoever I am his leader, so Ali is his leader.
According to Hadith Thaqalayn, we must follow Ahlul Bayt and Quran.

According to Sahih Hadith in Sunni authentic books, Prophet has said that Ali is the Imam of Muttaghin.

According to Quran, there are a guide for every people.
According to Quran, Ahlul Bayt are purified with a throught purification.
According to Quran, we must obey those who vested in authority.

Al-Hamdulillah.

Ok, but how we are going to benefit from the above in practice TODAY? whom should we follow today in your opinion? the missing imam in the cave since more than 1000 years a go? or ayat Allah of Iran who claim to meet him every now and then?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

As-Salaam Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu.

Hi, my name is Noah. I am NOT a Muslim but I just used the above greeting customarily...

I wanted to ask a question to Muslims about the American Muslim group, the Nation of Islam. The question is about it's founder.

That group's founder is named Wallace Ford, but he is called by that group "W. Fard Muhammad." That group claims that Mr. Ford is the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come.

My question for the Muslims at this site is this: In the year 1926 CE Mr. Ford was found guilty of selling illegal narcotics in California, USA. Here is the mugshot from his conviction showing the year, 1926 and what Mr. Ford was found guilty of, violating California's "State Poison Act:"

Those intimately familiar with the Nation of Islam will recognize the "W.D." in the mugshot.

My question is: Is it possible in your opinion that a man who spent 3 years in prison for selling illegal narcotics could really be the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come?

Thank you for all answers.

Peace to you,
Noah

Hi Noah,


I'm a Muslim but I don’t believe in Mahdi or Dajaal

The Mahdi and the Dajaal are not mentioned at all in the Holy Qur'an, they are mentioned in Hadiths,


They are used to start wars and madness between Muslims


You can say I'm somehow Quranic, but I don not reject any Hadith that do not contradict the holy Quran


Only when a hadith contradicts the holy Quran or says something that is against the normal holy Qur'an principles then I discard it regardless wherever this hadith in any book


There is a huge difference between the preservation of Hadtih and the holy Quran, the Hoy Quran is a pray book, it's memorized by millions of Muslims from the prophet (PBUH) time through ages, it's miraculous in its language, accuracy and meanings.


So as a normal Muslim I see all this talk about the Mahdi and Dajaal a waste of time and even a very bad thing because it result in No good at all.



Regards,

Mahmoud

 

[mojtaba]

Ok, but how we are going to benefit from the above in practice TODAY? whom should we follow today in your opinion? the missing imam in the cave since more than 1000 years a go? or ayat Allah of Iran who claim to meet him every now and then?

The importance of the following of Ahlul Bayt is now more obvious than the past.

If you see, you can find that the Takfiri groups like ISIS, Buku Haram, Al-Qa'ida, etc., all of them, are from sunnis who have not any true Imam and follow the school of Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman who spread Islam with the sword and killing. If you want, I can bring for you from your books the unbelievable killings of your first 3 Khalifs in their wars with non-Muslims.

We as the followers of the School of Ahlul Bayt, believe that Jihad is lawful only with an infallible and just Imam. So you can not see only one Shi'i Takfiri group.

the missing imam in the cave since more than 1000 years a go? or ayat Allah of Iran who claim to meet him every now and then?

I am sorry for you and for your misdirected mind.

We do not believe that Imam Mahdi is in a cave.

Also, Ayatullah Khamenei(Hafazahullah) has never claimed that he meets Imam Mahdi.
We believe that whoevere claims that he/she meets Imam Mahdi during his major Gheybah, he is a big liar.

May Allah save you from your liar Wahhabi scholars.

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
If you see, you can find that the Takfiri groups like ISIS, Buku Haram, Al-Qa'ida, etc., all of them, are from sunnis who have not any true Imam and follow the school of Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman who spread Islam with the sword and killing.

Oh dear .. I think that you'll find that in the Quran, Allah Subhanuwata'la says that the angels asked Him "why was He creating mankind when they would make bloodshed and corruption on the earth?"

So you see, it's not one group or another that's responsible for "killing", it's the whole of mankind!

May Allah save you from your liar Wahhabi scholars.

Tut tut .. and in Ramadan too..

Do we not all believe in Almighty God? Such rhetoric only increases enmity.

 

[Yasin-shalal]

As-Salaam Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu.

Hi, my name is Noah. I am NOT a Muslim but I just used the above greeting customarily...

I wanted to ask a question to Muslims about the American Muslim group, the Nation of Islam. The question is about it's founder.

That group's founder is named Wallace Ford, but he is called by that group "W. Fard Muhammad." That group claims that Mr. Ford is the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come.

My question for the Muslims at this site is this: In the year 1926 CE Mr. Ford was found guilty of selling illegal narcotics in California, USA. Here is the mugshot from his conviction showing the year, 1926 and what Mr. Ford was found guilty of, violating California's "State Poison Act:"

Those intimately familiar with the Nation of Islam will recognize the "W.D." in the mugshot.

My question is: Is it possible in your opinion that a man who spent 3 years in prison for selling illegal narcotics could really be the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come?

Thank you for all answers.

Peace to you,
Noah

It is not the first time that a man claims he is Mahdi. Peace be upon Mahdi(pbuh) when he rises; the upstanding Mahdi. We have detailed prophecies and signs of his arrival, we are NOT ignorant to be deceived by such people.
Here is a part of those signs:
When Syria and Iraq are defeated by a cruel army, when Saudi Arabia faces short time kingdoms after a king named Abdullah, Yemeni Muslims will enter Mecca and Madina through bloody wars and a cruel army will be dragged into earth in Baida of Saudi Arabia and a shriek of Mahdi's arrival will be heard by all the people of the Earth on 23 Ramadan.