The Nation of Islam; Your thoughts on this

[mojtaba]

That doesn't mean it's a pillar of Islam that we should follow in order to be a Muslim.
We believe in God , the Angels, Prophets, Day of Judgement and afterlife, Al-Qadar.
We believe in God and the last message by prophet Muhammed, we pray to God, we fast Ramadan,
we do the Zakat, we perform Hajj if we can.

Where's Ali?

Ali is in Ghadir Khom.

Prophet(peace be upon him) said,
"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"

People cried and answered:
"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) continued:
"O People! Surely Allah is my Master, and I am the Master of all believers."
"For whoever I am his Leader, 'Ali is his Leader."

Why you need to remove the other part of the verse ?!

And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an], but to Allah belongs the affair entirely. Then have those who believed not accepted that had Allah willed, He would have guided the people, all of them? And those who disbelieve do not cease to be struck, for what they have done, by calamity - or it will descend near their home - until there comes the promise of Allah . Indeed, Allah does not fail in [His] promise.

It the verse says if the quran will move the mountain or to break the earth into pieces or to speak with
the dead, then all of the humans will believe, but God don't want us to believe in that way but he wants
to guide the ones he wishes.

This verse clearly says that through this Qur'an, such doings can ocuur. But Allah wants or does not want the occuring of such these events, He Himself know when should wish and when should not. In the miracle of spliting of the moon, such events occured by Prophet,

Chapter 54,
The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split [in two]. (1) If they see a sign, they turn away, and say, ‘An incessant magic!’ (2)

 

[mojtaba]

Who says Ali didn't give an oath to Umar and Usman?

If we accept that Imam Ali gave an oath to Umar and Uthman, he did it because he was forced,

Imam Ali say,
Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself. Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial
(Sunni reference, Ibn 'Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, vol. 1, pg. 20)

who says the mahdi has a knowledge of inside of Quran?

1.Purified people have the knowledge of inside of Qur'an, as Qur'an states. 56:79
2.Ahlul Bayt have been purified by Allah Himself, with a thorough purification, as Qur'an states. 33:33
3.Imam Mahdi is between Ahlul Bayt, as Sahih Hadith states.

So because Imam Mahdi is purified by Allah with a thorough purification, he knows the knowledge of the inside of Qur'an.

 

[use_your_brain]

If we accept that Imam Ali gave an oath to Umar and Uthman, he did it because he was forced,

Imam Ali say,
Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself. Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial
(Sunni reference, Ibn 'Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, vol. 1, pg. 20)


1.Purified people have the knowledge of inside of Qur'an, as Qur'an states. 56:79
2.Ahlul Bayt have been purified by Allah Himself, with a thorough purification, as Qur'an states. 33:33
3.Imam Mahdi is between Ahlul Bayt, as Sahih Hadith states.

So because Imam Mahdi is purified by Allah with a thorough purification, he knows the knowledge of the inside of Qur'an.

Who forced Ali to give an oath to Usman for instance? Why did Ali prefer to obey the companions instead of the prophet? Was Ali afraid of death? In this case you imply Ali was a betrayer.
What does the knowledge the Mahdi know inside of Quran? Did the previous ahlul bait knew that knowledge? and what does it have to do with supernatural power?

 

[use_your_brain]

Ali is in Ghadir Khom.

Prophet(peace be upon him) said,
"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"

People cried and answered:
"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) continued:
"O People! Surely Allah is my Master, and I am the Master of all believers."
"For whoever I am his Leader, 'Ali is his Leader."


This verse clearly says that through this Qur'an, such doings can ocuur. But Allah wants or does not want the occuring of such these events, He Himself know when should wish and when should not. In the miracle of spliting of the moon, such events occured by Prophet,

Chapter 54,
The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split [in two]. (1) If they see a sign, they turn away, and say, ‘An incessant magic!’ (2)

What does Gadhir Qum have to do with us?

 

[mojtaba]

Who forced Ali to give an oath to Usman for instance?

Aloosi- one of the Sunni scholar- quoting from the book by Aban Ibn Ayyash, writes:

أن عمر قال لعلي : بايع أبا بكر رضي الله تعالى عنه قال : إن لم أفعل ذلك ؟ قال : إذا والله تعالى لأضربن عنقك قال : كذبت والله يا ابن صهاك لا تقدر على ذلك أنت ألأم وأضعف من ذلك​

-The interpretation of the Soul of Definition- Al- Aloosi, vol 3, p 124.

Ummar told Ali: pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr. Ali said: if I don’t carry out this work, what is your reaction? Ummar said: I swear by God that we will cut off your neck. Ali said: I swear by God that you lie. O, the son of Sahak, you don’t have such a power to do this work and you are so weak to cut off my neck.

Why did Ali prefer to obey the companions instead of the prophet? Was Ali afraid of death? In this case you imply Ali was a betrayer.

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) addressing 'Ali said: أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي [You are to me, in the position that Aaron was to Moses, except that there is no Prophet after me.].
(Sahih Muslim, The Book of the Merits of the Companions, Chapter: The Virtues Of 'Ali Bin Abi Talib, Hadith 47)

Holy Qur'a, 7:142
And Moses said to Aaron, his brother, ‘Be my successor among my people, and set things right and do not follow the way of the agents of corruption.

Holy Qur'an, 20:94
He[Moses] said, ‘O Aaron! What kept you, when you saw them going astray, (92) from following me? Did you disobey my command?’ (93) He said, ‘O son of my mother! Do not grab my beard or my head! I feared lest you should say, ‘‘You have caused a rift among the Children of Israel and did not heed my word [of advice].’’’

Holy Qur'an, 7:150
He[Moses] threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, pulling him towards himself. He[Aaron] said, ‘Son of my mother, indeed this people thought me to be weak, and they were about to kill me. So do not let the enemies gloat over me, and do not take me with the wrongdoing lot.’

What does the knowledge the Mahdi know inside of Quran? Did the previous ahlul bait knew that knowledge? and what does it have to do with supernatural power?

You should know who are Ahlul Byt. See this thread, [URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-ahl-al-bayt.179334/#post-4402973"]The Ahl Al-bayt[/URL]

 

[mojtaba]

What does Gadhir Qum have to do with us?

In Ghadir Khom is not the order of your Prophet regarding leadership of Imam Ali?

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I'm probably just a coward .. but I don't like confrontation, unless it's necessary.
eg. when people are being oppressed.

I don't see any problem with explaining to others which we think is correct. That's very important.
But creating enmity, I'm not in favour of. I see too much conflict going on in the world between "Muslims" (sic)

I'm not talking about various sects withing Islam itself, there's nothing wrong in that. The Prophet PBUH allowed for differences of opinion among his own companions the issue here is distinguishing between Muslims (regardless of sectarian background) and groups that pretend to be Muslim but are liars, hypocrites or khawarij, which our beloved Prophet PBUH warned us against and to stay away from. The only way you can stay away from them is if you can recognise them and a group such as NOI is recognised by the vast majority of the Muslim community as non-Muslim, as liars, idolaters and sinners. If I have this knowledge and other Muslims do too and we do not spread it, then we are responsible for those Muslims and other non-muslims who fall into the trap of believing liars and murderers and pimps such as Farakhan and Elijah and so on.

This has nothing to do with spreading mistrust, enmity or hatred among Muslims but more to do with distinguishing between truth and lies.

 

[FearGod]

Ali is in Ghadir Khom.

Prophet(peace be upon him) said,
"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"

People cried and answered:
"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) continued:
"O People! Surely Allah is my Master, and I am the Master of all believers."
"For whoever I am his Leader, 'Ali is his Leader."

And Ali and Muhammed were Muslims as i am.

This verse clearly says that through this Qur'an, such doings can ocuur. But Allah wants or does not want the occuring of such these events, He Himself know when should wish and when should not. In the miracle of spliting of the moon, such events occured by Prophet,

No, it doesn't, it says "And if there was any qur'an", which mean there wasn't.

Chapter 54,
The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split [in two]. (1) If they see a sign, they turn away, and say, ‘An incessant magic!’ (2)

That didn't happen by the quran but by God's will

 

[use_your_brain]

In Ghadir Khom is not the order of your Prophet regarding leadership of Imam Ali?

then what should we do now?

 

[use_your_brain]

Aloosi- one of the Sunni scholar- quoting from the book by Aban Ibn Ayyash, writes:

أن عمر قال لعلي : بايع أبا بكر رضي الله تعالى عنه قال : إن لم أفعل ذلك ؟ قال : إذا والله تعالى لأضربن عنقك قال : كذبت والله يا ابن صهاك لا تقدر على ذلك أنت ألأم وأضعف من ذلك​

-The interpretation of the Soul of Definition- Al- Aloosi, vol 3, p 124.

Ummar told Ali: pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr. Ali said: if I don’t carry out this work, what is your reaction? Ummar said: I swear by God that we will cut off your neck. Ali said: I swear by God that you lie. O, the son of Sahak, you don’t have such a power to do this work and you are so weak to cut off my neck.


Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) addressing 'Ali said: أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي [You are to me, in the position that Aaron was to Moses, except that there is no Prophet after me.].
(Sahih Muslim, The Book of the Merits of the Companions, Chapter: The Virtues Of 'Ali Bin Abi Talib, Hadith 47)

Holy Qur'a, 7:142
And Moses said to Aaron, his brother, ‘Be my successor among my people, and set things right and do not follow the way of the agents of corruption.

Holy Qur'an, 20:94
He[Moses] said, ‘O Aaron! What kept you, when you saw them going astray, (92) from following me? Did you disobey my command?’ (93) He said, ‘O son of my mother! Do not grab my beard or my head! I feared lest you should say, ‘‘You have caused a rift among the Children of Israel and did not heed my word [of advice].’’’

Holy Qur'an, 7:150
He[Moses] threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, pulling him towards himself. He[Aaron] said, ‘Son of my mother, indeed this people thought me to be weak, and they were about to kill me. So do not let the enemies gloat over me, and do not take me with the wrongdoing lot.’

You should know who are Ahlul Byt. See this thread, The Ahl Al-bayt

Why did Ali give an oath to Usman? can you create a short story regarding to this case?
You imply Ali was afraid of Umar. did Ali prefer to afraid of Umar by betraying prophet Muhammad's message?
In this case Ali betrayed the Prophet. Ali was alleged a weak man, a betrayer. Right?

You didn't answer some of my questions.

 

[use_your_brain]

You should know who are Ahlul Byt. See this thread, The Ahl Al-bayt

Ahlul Beit didn't belong to the supernatural power, Ali got killed, Husein as well.

 

[Sakeenah]

As-Salaam Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu.

Hi, my name is Noah. I am NOT a Muslim but I just used the above greeting customarily...

I wanted to ask a question to Muslims about the American Muslim group, the Nation of Islam. The question is about it's founder.

That group's founder is named Wallace Ford, but he is called by that group "W. Fard Muhammad." That group claims that Mr. Ford is the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come.

My question for the Muslims at this site is this: In the year 1926 CE Mr. Ford was found guilty of selling illegal narcotics in California, USA. Here is the mugshot from his conviction showing the year, 1926 and what Mr. Ford was found guilty of, violating California's "State Poison Act:"

Those intimately familiar with the Nation of Islam will recognize the "W.D." in the mugshot.

My question is: Is it possible in your opinion that a man who spent 3 years in prison for selling illegal narcotics could really be the Mahdi that the Muslim world has been expecting to come?

Thank you for all answers.

Peace to you,
Noah

Salaam noah

Welcome to Islam DIR. Nation of islam are a racist sect that aren't considered to be muslims because of their beliefs

- they belief that every black man is a incarnate of Allah and that white people are devils. They also belief that Allah came in a form of a man Fard Muhammad.

- they belief that the prophet muhammad phub wasnt the last prophet to fulfill the prophecy but that elijah muhammad was.

- they dont belief in the resurrection of humankind on the day of judgement.

These are just a few points I mentioned that contradict the basic teachings of Islam. People from the nation of islam who want to become muslim retake the testimony of faith because they werent upon islam in the first place.

 

[mojtaba]

Ok brothers, Lakum Dinukum wa liya Din.

I only say that Imam Ali(peace be upon him) only feared Allah.
I have said what I should say to truth seekings.

Waffaqanallah Jmi'an!

 

[TashaN]

Dear Mojtaba, you are quoting false hadiths and then interpret the Quran based on these false hadiths hadiths. Read the Quran and don't be fooled by false hadiths.

As for Mahdi, he doesn't have inner knowledge of Quran or anything, he just have enough faith to see it as it is without being weak or influenced by worldly life. He doesn't compromise like how we do these days. If the Quran says something, he will do it as it is. As simple as that, and Allah knows best.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba, you are quoting false hadiths and then interpret the Quran based on these false hadiths hadiths. Read the Quran and don't be fooled by false hadiths.

As for Mahdi, he doesn't have inner knowledge of Quran or anything, he just have enough faith to see it as it is without being weak or influenced by worldly life. He doesn't compromise like how we do these days. If the Quran says something, he will do it as it is. As simple as that, and Allah knows best.

Salam.
Dear TashaN, all Hadiths which I mentioned are Sahih according to Sunni Hadith science, so why do you say they are false?!
Your greatest imams of Hadiths have said that they are Sahih and authentic.

A.Mahdi is between Ahlul Bayt, according to Sahih and authentic Sunni Hadiths,http://sunnah.com/abudawud/38/6
B.According to Holy Qur'an, Allah Ta'ala, Himself has purified Ahlul Bayt, with a thorough purification,[Qur'an 33:33]
C.Purified people have the knowledge of inside of Qur'an,[ Qur'an 56:79]

So, according to Qur'an, Imam Mahdi(peace be upon him) has the knowledge of inside of Qur'an.

Good luck!

 

[TashaN]

Salam.
Dear TashaN, all Hadiths which I mentioned are Sahih according to Sunni Hadith science, so why do you say they are false?!
Your greatest imams of Hadiths have said that they are Sahih and authentic.

A.Mahdi is between Ahlul Bayt, according to Sahih and authentic Sunni Hadiths,http://sunnah.com/abudawud/38/6
B.According to Holy Qur'an, Allah Ta'ala, Himself has purified Ahlul Bayt, with a thorough purification,[Qur'an 33:33]
C.Purified people have the knowledge of inside of Qur'an,[ Qur'an 56:79]

So, according to Qur'an, Imam Mahdi(peace be upon him) has the knowledge of inside of Qur'an.

Good luck!

Man! what are you talking about? do you really read the Quran or you are taking ready arguments from somewhere else? that's why i asked you to please read the Quran for what it says not to fall into confirmation bias.

Let's take the verses you mentioned one by one.

Quran 33:33 says:
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance: and establish Regular Prayer, and give Regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

Are you saying that Al-Mahdi has to wear hijab and stay at home? and he is one of the wives of the Prophet??!!

The other verse you mentioned which is Quran 56:77-79 says:
That this is indeed a Qur-an most honourable,
In a Book well-guarded,
Which none shall touch but those who are clean:

How that supposed to support the inner knowledge theory? So only Ahul Albait are clean enough to touch the Quran you say? subhan Allah!

Please read the Quran and read from authentic tafseers and hadiths. May Allah guide you to all truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Are you saying that Al-Mahdi has to wear hijab and stay at home?..

I'm sure that he isn't!

 

[mojtaba]

Man! what are you talking about? do you really read the Quran or you are taking ready arguments from somewhere else? that's why i asked you to please read the Quran for what it says not to fall into confirmation bias.

Salam.
Please control yourself and be calm. We are not fighting with each other.

Let's take the verses you mentioned one by one.

Quran 33:33 says:
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance: and establish Regular Prayer, and give Regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

Are you saying that Al-Mahdi has to wear hijab and stay at home? and he is one of the wives of the Prophet??!!

I have answered to this question, see The Ahl Al-bayt, post #18 and The Ahl Al-bayt, post #24 and The Ahl Al-bayt, post #27

The part which is about Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them)[i.e., Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification] was revealed at a different time and is not about the wives of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt).

The other verse you mentioned which is Quran 56:77-79 says:
That this is indeed a Qur-an most honourable,
In a Book well-guarded,
Which none shall touch but those who are clean:

How that supposed to support the inner knowledge theory? So only Ahul Albait are clean enough to touch the Quran you say? subhan Allah!

I think you have not got the point,

A.Holy Qur'an, Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is indeed sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

According to these two verses, Qur'an has an outside which is indeed these Arabic sentences, and also an inner which is indeed sublime and wise with Allah in the Mother Book.

B.Holy Qur'an, Chapter 56
This is indeed a noble Quran, (77) in a guarded Book (78) —no one touches it except the pure ones— (79)

Because Qur'an has two parts,i.e. outer and inner, so these verses have two meanings,
1. Only those who have the outside purity[ e.g., those who have Wodhu ] can touch the outside of Qur'an which is indeed the Arabic words on the papers.
2. Only those who have the inside purity[ the most complete examples are Ahlul Bayt, i.e. Prophet and his pure Progeny ] can touch the inside of Qur'an[ i.e., guarded Book ] which is with Allah in the Mother Book.

Please read the Quran and read from authentic tafseers and hadiths. May Allah guide you to all truth.

May Allah guide those whom stray from His way and...

Holy Quran[68:7] " Indeed your Lord knows best those who stray from His way, and He knows best those who are guided ".

 

[muhammad_isa]

Salam.
The part which is about Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them)[i.e., Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification] was revealed at a different time and is not about the wives of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt).

Are you saying that the Qur'an has been ordered wrongly? Why should the verse in question be as it is, even if parts of the verse were revealed in different times?

I think you have not got the point..

Oh yes .. you believe that 'ahle albayt' are somehow special/Divine..
Allah subhanuwat'ala says in Qur'an that He makes no distinction between any of the prophets.
That means that Jesus, Moses and Noah are men as is the prophet Muhammad (peace be with them)

So what about Noah's son who refused to believe? Is he somehow special? Would a disbelieving son in Muhammad's lineage be somehow special?

We should learn from the Christians what happens when we elevate human beings!!

 

[mojtaba]

Are you saying that the Qur'an has been ordered wrongly? Why should the verse in question be as it is, even if parts of the verse were revealed in different times?

The most authentic Sunni books, e.g. Sahih Muslim state, that part which is about Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them) was revealed in different time and is not about the wives of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny and his good companions).

Also Qur'an itself proves this. Because the verses and parts which is about the wives of Prophet have the pronounce کن[which is for women] and the part which is about Ahlul Bayt has the pronounce کم which is for men or a group of men plus women, as I mentioned in the previous post of mine.

Anyway, all verses are in their correct places.
The verse which is for Ahlul Bayt is between the verses which are about the wives of Prophet because the wives would know that who were their examples. Indeed, their examples were Ahlul Bayt whom Allah himself has purified them with a thorough purification.
Maybe there are also other reasons which I do not know, Allahu 'A'lam.

Oh yes .. you believe that 'ahle albayt' are somehow special/Divine..
Allah subhanuwat'ala says in Qur'an that He makes no distinction between any of the prophets.
That means that Jesus, Moses and Noah are men as is the prophet Muhammad (peace be with them)

So what about Noah's son who refused to believe? Is he somehow special? Would a disbelieving son in Muhammad's lineage be somehow special?

We should learn from the Christians what happens when we elevate human beings!!

There are difference between the Ahl of Prophet Muhammad and the Ahl of other Prophets. Allah only has desired to repel all impurity from the Ahlul Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, and purify them with a thorough purification, not the Ahl of other Prophets.

You mentined, "Jesus, Moses and Noah are men as is the prophet Muhammad, We should learn from the Christians what happens when we elevate human beings!!"

According to your saying, you are knower than Allah Ta'ala! Because He has not kept in mind what happened for the Christians, and said a very big thing about Prophet Adam,

Holy Qur'an, 17:61
And [mention] when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"

So, your sayin is not valid.

We as Shia do not believe in that Ahlul Bayt are God or other things such this.